It is clear to be at least that even before Ulric Kerensky had bid his forces against comstar, the clans were will on their way to losing the invasion. The Inner sphere powers had engage the clans in a war of attrition and with IS victories in Lyran and Draconis Combine the inner sphere was able to hold out their own against the clan's omnimechs. So this isn't much of a discussion about Tukayyid because in my opinion the war was pretty much lost.
My feeling is this...the clans mismanaged the invasion badly. Their own clan culture and pride hurt their efforts. In my opinion they could of used more of their reserve forces and other clans rather then allow themselves to be worn thin. We know that their were four clans that won the right to be the front line invasion (Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, and Smoke Jag) and then three more in reserves (Nova Cat, Steel Viper and Diamond Shark.
But what about the other clans???
Here's what i would of done if i was ikhan
3 waves of invading forces
First wave - Clan Wolf, Clan Jade Falcon. Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Smoke Jagaer
First wave goes in first, they are the front line and in charge of capturing the IS planets
Second Wave - Clan Nova Cat, Clan Diamond Shark, Clan Steel Viper,
They come in a replace garrison troops of the front line clans and fight against any rebellions or insurgencies. They supply the front line (Clan Nova Cat has some of the best logistic out of any clan). They do not have the right to engage in a trial of position for the first waves captured planets but can take any other planet that is not be captured.
Third wave- ALL THE OTHER CLANS
They come in shortly after the second wave and when the second wave moves toward the front lines to capture worlds. Establishes supply lines much like the second wave. Do not have the right to fight a trial of position.
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Why Didn't The Clans Use More Of Their Reserve Forces
Started by _Comrade_, Mar 28 2014 03:48 PM
26 replies to this topic
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Posted 28 March 2014 - 04:23 PM
Grimwill, on 28 March 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:
It is clear to be at least that even before Ulric Kerensky had bid his forces against comstar, the clans were will on their way to losing the invasion. The Inner sphere powers had engage the clans in a war of attrition and with IS victories in Lyran and Draconis Combine the inner sphere was able to hold out their own against the clan's omnimechs. So this isn't much of a discussion about Tukayyid because in my opinion the war was pretty much lost.
My feeling is this...the clans mismanaged the invasion badly. Their own clan culture and pride hurt their efforts. In my opinion they could of used more of their reserve forces and other clans rather then allow themselves to be worn thin. We know that their were four clans that won the right to be the front line invasion (Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, and Smoke Jag) and then three more in reserves (Nova Cat, Steel Viper and Diamond Shark.
But what about the other clans???
Here's what i would of done if i was ikhan
3 waves of invading forces
First wave - Clan Wolf, Clan Jade Falcon. Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Smoke Jagaer
First wave goes in first, they are the front line and in charge of capturing the IS planets
Second Wave - Clan Nova Cat, Clan Diamond Shark, Clan Steel Viper,
They come in a replace garrison troops of the front line clans and fight against any rebellions or insurgencies. They supply the front line (Clan Nova Cat has some of the best logistic out of any clan). They do not have the right to engage in a trial of position for the first waves captured planets but can take any other planet that is not be captured.
Third wave- ALL THE OTHER CLANS
They come in shortly after the second wave and when the second wave moves toward the front lines to capture worlds. Establishes supply lines much like the second wave. Do not have the right to fight a trial of position.
My feeling is this...the clans mismanaged the invasion badly. Their own clan culture and pride hurt their efforts. In my opinion they could of used more of their reserve forces and other clans rather then allow themselves to be worn thin. We know that their were four clans that won the right to be the front line invasion (Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, and Smoke Jag) and then three more in reserves (Nova Cat, Steel Viper and Diamond Shark.
But what about the other clans???
Here's what i would of done if i was ikhan
3 waves of invading forces
First wave - Clan Wolf, Clan Jade Falcon. Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Smoke Jagaer
First wave goes in first, they are the front line and in charge of capturing the IS planets
Second Wave - Clan Nova Cat, Clan Diamond Shark, Clan Steel Viper,
They come in a replace garrison troops of the front line clans and fight against any rebellions or insurgencies. They supply the front line (Clan Nova Cat has some of the best logistic out of any clan). They do not have the right to engage in a trial of position for the first waves captured planets but can take any other planet that is not be captured.
Third wave- ALL THE OTHER CLANS
They come in shortly after the second wave and when the second wave moves toward the front lines to capture worlds. Establishes supply lines much like the second wave. Do not have the right to fight a trial of position.
Well, this is interesting.
Imo far from loosing the Clans were winning the war. It's one of the primary reasons Comstar jumped in and negotiated for Tukayyid.
The FC flank was burnt out, there were minimal reserves except capital garrisons and if you take an IS view, that had only been by one Clan, the Jade Falcons. Now it is seemingly reinforced by another Clan (Steel Viper) so the FC guys are doing the proverbial in their pants.
On the DC flank, it's a similar story. Harder fighting, SJ took some knocks but they are coming back stronger and also reinforced by another Clan, Nova Cat. Takashi and Theodore were divided on defending Luthien and that was only 1 jump away and under immenent threat. Loose Luthien and you may well have wiped out the DC. They do manage to hold it but only by the barest of margins and it took 16 regiments to do so.
In the middle, Wolf and Ghost Bear look like the tip of spear, they are in their 5th wave riding over virtually zero opposition.
So from an IS side, who's left to fight? You have some reserves a long way back like Avalon garrison and New Syrtis garrison. Marik is opening up the supply lockers but not exactly racing to the front with troops. Liao is just aching for FC to move some troops so they can attack them, they don't even care about the Clans. Romano left it clear she wasn't co operating.
So who's left to fight? No one but Com Star.
I think the canon paints a picture that if Comstar did not have a "surprise' army with 10k+ mechs, the Clans would have taken Terra.
The question then is, would the House lords submit if they did, unlikely. But it's irrelevant then. The race to Terra was to determine the Il Clan, and once that was done there was no reason for the remaining Clans to not come to the Inner Sphere. It was Nicholas's words that they would and they all believed they would, with the question of Il Clan decided the House Lords would soon be facing the other Clans.
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Posted 28 March 2014 - 04:31 PM
Craig, I've got to disagree with you here.
If you read all of the novels, it's pretty clear that the Clans were about to reach "operational culmination" as we say in the military and it was implied by many of the leaders, especially the Wolf Khan.
For many of the others, it was largely hubris that blinded them to that potentiality. They had overstretched themselves logistically. That being said, I'm not saying they were "losing" but I would not characterize them as clearly winning either. It was hard fought either way and the Turtle Bay atrocity at Edo was just as much a driving force for IS leaders as was the thought of continued losses in a similar vein. What would victory be but pyrrhic if the war continued without Anastasius Focht and Victor-Davion with the Tukkayid challenge.
In fact, we all know it fit with Kerensky's Warden philosophy for Tukkayid to happen, not only because he would ultimately manage the bidding well enough that it demonstrating the weakness of the Clan bidding process (there are pros of course, but cut too low, too aggressive with less logistical sustainment is a failing methodology). It allowed him to retain preeminence among the Invaders and to give the IS a way out with a stronger potential for victory for them via the Challenge.
It is fake history, but like all "histories" there are vague aspects, nuances and unknowns that always allow for a significant amount of theorycrafting and conjecture, even in the case of BT canon.
If you read all of the novels, it's pretty clear that the Clans were about to reach "operational culmination" as we say in the military and it was implied by many of the leaders, especially the Wolf Khan.
For many of the others, it was largely hubris that blinded them to that potentiality. They had overstretched themselves logistically. That being said, I'm not saying they were "losing" but I would not characterize them as clearly winning either. It was hard fought either way and the Turtle Bay atrocity at Edo was just as much a driving force for IS leaders as was the thought of continued losses in a similar vein. What would victory be but pyrrhic if the war continued without Anastasius Focht and Victor-Davion with the Tukkayid challenge.
In fact, we all know it fit with Kerensky's Warden philosophy for Tukkayid to happen, not only because he would ultimately manage the bidding well enough that it demonstrating the weakness of the Clan bidding process (there are pros of course, but cut too low, too aggressive with less logistical sustainment is a failing methodology). It allowed him to retain preeminence among the Invaders and to give the IS a way out with a stronger potential for victory for them via the Challenge.
It is fake history, but like all "histories" there are vague aspects, nuances and unknowns that always allow for a significant amount of theorycrafting and conjecture, even in the case of BT canon.
Edited by Lukoi, 28 March 2014 - 04:37 PM.
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Posted 28 March 2014 - 05:03 PM
I always saw the challenge of tukkayid as more of a way out then anything else. As if Focht was trying to give Ulric a way out of the invasion so that he could go back and say "we gave it our best but we lost". Of course this didn't end up good for Ulric as the Jade Falcons were not happy and lead to his death at the hands of the falcons. I don't think that comstar was trying to save the inner sphere, i always saw comstar as being more villain then anything else. Religious fanatics who hold the entire IS hostage with their control of the HPG's. They would of rather see the IS burn and then take over what was leftover. Maybe by issuing that challenge they realized that the IS would be even more in debt to them
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Posted 28 March 2014 - 05:23 PM
Lukoi, on 28 March 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:
Craig, I've got to disagree with you here.
If you read all of the novels, it's pretty clear that the Clans were about to reach "operational culmination" as we say in the military and it was implied by many of the leaders, especially the Wolf Khan.
For many of the others, it was largely hubris that blinded them to that potentiality. They had overstretched themselves logistically. That being said, I'm not saying they were "losing" but I would not characterize them as clearly winning either. It was hard fought either way and the Turtle Bay atrocity at Edo was just as much a driving force for IS leaders as was the thought of continued losses in a similar vein. What would victory be but pyrrhic if the war continued without Anastasius Focht and Victor-Davion with the Tukkayid challenge.
In fact, we all know it fit with Kerensky's Warden philosophy for Tukkayid to happen, not only because he would ultimately manage the bidding well enough that it demonstrating the weakness of the Clan bidding process (there are pros of course, but cut too low, too aggressive with less logistical sustainment is a failing methodology). It allowed him to retain preeminence among the Invaders and to give the IS a way out with a stronger potential for victory for them via the Challenge.
It is fake history, but like all "histories" there are vague aspects, nuances and unknowns that always allow for a significant amount of theorycrafting and conjecture, even in the case of BT canon.
If you read all of the novels, it's pretty clear that the Clans were about to reach "operational culmination" as we say in the military and it was implied by many of the leaders, especially the Wolf Khan.
For many of the others, it was largely hubris that blinded them to that potentiality. They had overstretched themselves logistically. That being said, I'm not saying they were "losing" but I would not characterize them as clearly winning either. It was hard fought either way and the Turtle Bay atrocity at Edo was just as much a driving force for IS leaders as was the thought of continued losses in a similar vein. What would victory be but pyrrhic if the war continued without Anastasius Focht and Victor-Davion with the Tukkayid challenge.
In fact, we all know it fit with Kerensky's Warden philosophy for Tukkayid to happen, not only because he would ultimately manage the bidding well enough that it demonstrating the weakness of the Clan bidding process (there are pros of course, but cut too low, too aggressive with less logistical sustainment is a failing methodology). It allowed him to retain preeminence among the Invaders and to give the IS a way out with a stronger potential for victory for them via the Challenge.
It is fake history, but like all "histories" there are vague aspects, nuances and unknowns that always allow for a significant amount of theorycrafting and conjecture, even in the case of BT canon.
Sure, but logistic issues were only a point in time and already being solved.
They would delay Leo Showers planned timelines, but not change the end outcome. It was easier for Clans to reconfigure to energy weapons / produce munitions locally (IS factories) than it was for the IS to build new Battlemechs and train new pilots.
If you look at the point in time where Comstar starts to negotiate (which is the scenario I described above) then the Clans were stretching, and maybe had to pause for longer than their "planned' stop, say its 3 months? But they were far from being held back.
The IS is not going to restock it's beaten up regiments in that same time and they were painfully thin on more reserves. What they could likely use is those capital garrisons which are top notch units, but they are a long way away. They will get to the front maybe right on 3 months? certainly not with sufficient time to 'dig in'. Is it enough, probably not if the we look at the first few months of the Invasion, entire elite RCT's are disappearing in a matter of days to the Clans.
Ghost Bear and Wolf had virtually nothing in front of them, FRR had maybe 3 unengaged regiments (?) and half a dozen smashed up ones. The SJ / NC have now been defeated at Luthien which kinda stabilises that flank for a moment, but the cost is staggering to the IS, they deployed 16 regiments in Luthiens defense.The Clans were fully up to strength 3 months later for Tukayyid which kinda hints that the 'supply' problems so often quoted are more likely over stated. JF is looking pretty good comparitively
As for Tukayyid, I see it more as deliberate sabotage by Ulric. As an Il Khan, he failed spectularly here. The bidding was his lever, and as Il Khan he should have been setting cut down bids for the minimum force he considered appropriate for HIS operation. Lets be clear about this, as Il Khan it was his job to ensure the operation was successful.
And what do we see. The Il Khan telling one of his generals to 'loose' the bidding so Clan Wolf can have the easiest targets, with the most forces and land last on planet. And then he stands back and watches the other Khans bid forces he 'knows' are insufficient for the task to complete HIS mission and he says and does nothing.
If he had of set cut downs the other Khans could go lower for honour sure, but if it went bad they could have called on those bid away assets to complete the mission with only honour lost. They had no cutdowns to fall back on and thus Tukayyid was lost.
We do not see Ulric co ordinating his forces, there's no communication. He simply puts his hands up and says "oh well, they dug their own grave and I gave them the data disks, not my fault". This has to be the lamest attitude of any leader in any history, fake or not. He simply denies ownership and blames his junior officers.
So in summary, I think that the IS had recovered from the initial shock and were scrambling to put their house back in order. But they had already taken fatal damage that could not be repaired for several years, 5 or more at least (two pilot training programs?).
On the other side of the fence, the Clans had found out they had under estimated their opponent (big time in some cases) but their losses were relativily light across the front and their supply problems could be rectified much faster than the IS's problems. Given 2 clans could virtually restock 4 galaxies in total in 2 months (Luthien losses replaced for Tukayyid) we can argue that the supply issues may have been over stated to a degree, but it's a point of contention I agree. The thing that might have hindered them going forward was garrisoning captured worlds, but different Clans were approaching that differently, some with success.
The only thing holding the Clans back was a traitorous Il Khan who was activily sabotaging his own army.
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Posted 28 March 2014 - 05:26 PM
Grimwill, on 28 March 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:
I always saw the challenge of tukkayid as more of a way out then anything else. As if Focht was trying to give Ulric a way out of the invasion so that he could go back and say "we gave it our best but we lost". Of course this didn't end up good for Ulric as the Jade Falcons were not happy and lead to his death at the hands of the falcons. I don't think that comstar was trying to save the inner sphere, i always saw comstar as being more villain then anything else. Religious fanatics who hold the entire IS hostage with their control of the HPG's. They would of rather see the IS burn and then take over what was leftover. Maybe by issuing that challenge they realized that the IS would be even more in debt to them
Bit of truth to this, but also I think self preservation.
Comstar found out Terra was the Clans target, and without Terra Comstar has no base. They knew they would have to fight then as the House Lords looked like they were not going to be able to stop the Clans.
Rather than fight on Terra, better to fight on another system to protect factories etc, ergo Tukayyid.
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Posted 28 March 2014 - 05:37 PM
Craig Steele, on 28 March 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:
Sure, but logistic issues were only a point in time and already being solved.
This part alone is incorrect from my reading of the novels. Logistics problems were not being solved nor would they likely be in a mere three months. Gains that stretched Clanner control include garrisoning planets that would provide resupply, which also stretched the Clans.
Looking at the orders of battle for both sides I do not believe that the Clans were as dominant as you state here either. The FRR was lost, but not Houses Kurita, Davion or Steiner by any means. While I agree all were in dire straits, so to were the Clans. Let us not forget...a very significant reason the Clans were able to penetrate as deep as they did was because their garrison loads were much lighter due to one major asset...Comstar administered their worlds. Had the conflict continued outside of the proxy battle, Comstar undoubtedly would have further reduced Clan capacity by becoming less of an asset.
Not to mention the Comstar Divisions. Had they not fought at Tukkayid in a bid to reduce costs (to both sides), they would have eventually fought en masse elsewhere at different flash points.
Again, its all theory-craft and opinion of a fake history but it can easily be read to show the Clans were going to be forced to pull reserves forward if they wished to win Terra. Tukkayid was a convenient option for both sides. More so for Kerensky given his hidden agenda.
Edited by Lukoi, 28 March 2014 - 06:05 PM.
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Posted 28 March 2014 - 06:04 PM
Lukoi, on 28 March 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:
This part alone is incorrect from my reading of the novels. Logistics problems were not being solved nor would they likely be in a mere three months. Gains that stretched Clanner control include garrisoning planets that would provide resupply, which also stretched the Clans.
Looking at the orders of battle for both sides I do not believe that the Clans were as dominant as you state here either. The FRR was lost, but not Houses Kurita, Davion or Steiner by any means. While I agree all were in dire straits, so to were the Clans.
Not to mention the Comstar Divisions. Had they not fought at Tukkayid in a bid to reduce costs (to both sides), they would have eventually fought en masse elsewhere at different flash points.
Again, its all theory-craft and opinion of a fake history but it can easily be read to show the Clans were going to be forced to pull reserves forward if they wished to win Terra. Tukkayid was a convenient option for both sides. More so for Kerensky given his hidden agenda.
Maybe, but no one knew about the strength of Comstar army until they started negotiating for Tukayyid, it was a surprise to the IS House Lords.
The logistics issue is certainly topical. It WAS a long way back to the factories and for all their strength, the Clans did not plan on taking massive losses. It's mostly Clan Wolf and Comstar sources that cite these logictical problems in the canon.
But we see Smoke Jaguars and Nova Cats restocking after Luthien in good time for Tukayyid. We see (later) Clan Jade Falcon striking out for Coventry after alledgedly being 'crippled' by the Refusal War.
We also know that the Clans captured many stockpiles of munitions and factories during the first few waves. As an example, the 8th Arcturan RCT on Here was forced off planet in 24 hours. The picture painted is a complete rout, two battles in the field, whatever is left falls back to the capital and digs in and then utter collapse during a night assault. This is a planet on the edge of the periphary at the end of a long supply line so you'd have to think its got big supply dumps for independant operations. Assuming a few get blown up in the mad retreat sure, but the Falcons are still capturing a bucket load of munitions and lubricants thats all useful to them.
The Clans biggest problem with logistics (in canon) seems to be the caste system. All Clans intially had their warriors clear a planet of defenders and once secured, the merchants and technicians would come up with the garrisons. Then they would find / strip all the useful bits for the Clans war machine. But these lower cases were not permitted on planet until the Warriors had deemed it appropriate, so there's a time lag and for some Clans, its a big lag (looking at you here SJ)
In Clan Wolf's 3rd wave, Ulric attaches these lower castes to the warriors task force and they are landing only days after the warriors instead of months, but still doing the same thing. This speeds up the Wolf supply ability for wave 4.
Then we have the pause and the warriors return with fresh supplies (one assumes).
So yeah, logistics was an issue, but I still don't see how the Clans (being masters of efficiency and all) could not solve their supply problems faster than the IS problems of troop strength, bar the appearance of the Comguard.
Even if they just defended and sent every ship back to reload with munitions, its 12 months pause at most. Not much is going to change in the House Lords armies in that timeline.
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Posted 28 March 2014 - 06:12 PM
Go back and reread my edited post.
Secondly...you assume fresh supplies. Why? Secondly, logistics were their achilles heel at Tukkayid and in fact, long term would have always been their achilles heel. They did not have the manpower to garrison, resupply or "rekey" their own losses (not without bringing in fresh assets from home and potentially Clans that had been bid out such as the Adders).
Your argument seems to rely primarily on the status of the House Lord armies. My point includes Comstar's Army, which was significant. The Clans brought less personnel, which is matched proportionally by the greater casualty rate they incurred.
The DCMS, FWL (the major industrial powerhouse of the IS, which was still in good shape) and the AFFC were not depleted as you describe.
Again, the Clans imo, were further along to culminating than you portray and Ulric's comments as well as Fochts in Lost Destiny support this point of view. Tukkayid was portrayed as a valiant last stand, but that's just as likely against the possibility of a Pyrrhic victory as it is the dying gasp of the entire IS.
Don't me wrong, I can see your point of view. I simply don't agree with it and there's plenty in canon that could be utilized to support either. We aren't going to agree here, that's plain to see I think
Secondly...you assume fresh supplies. Why? Secondly, logistics were their achilles heel at Tukkayid and in fact, long term would have always been their achilles heel. They did not have the manpower to garrison, resupply or "rekey" their own losses (not without bringing in fresh assets from home and potentially Clans that had been bid out such as the Adders).
Your argument seems to rely primarily on the status of the House Lord armies. My point includes Comstar's Army, which was significant. The Clans brought less personnel, which is matched proportionally by the greater casualty rate they incurred.
The DCMS, FWL (the major industrial powerhouse of the IS, which was still in good shape) and the AFFC were not depleted as you describe.
Again, the Clans imo, were further along to culminating than you portray and Ulric's comments as well as Fochts in Lost Destiny support this point of view. Tukkayid was portrayed as a valiant last stand, but that's just as likely against the possibility of a Pyrrhic victory as it is the dying gasp of the entire IS.
Don't me wrong, I can see your point of view. I simply don't agree with it and there's plenty in canon that could be utilized to support either. We aren't going to agree here, that's plain to see I think
Edited by Lukoi, 28 March 2014 - 06:14 PM.
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Posted 28 March 2014 - 06:41 PM
From what I remember the main reason they did not just steamroll over the IS is that the clans "reserve forces" were split into five seperate categories.
1.FRONTLINE INVADING CLAN TROOPS(Clans Wolf, Ghost Bear, Jade Falcon, Smoke Jags )
what remained of clan Smoke Jaguar Clan Wolf Ghost Bear and Falcon units that were frontline omnimechs not needed to maintain clan holdings against homeworld clans(trials of various types surely went on during the Invasion and each homeworld clan needed some good warriors to defend contested clan holdings). For example Clan Ice Hellion was a staunchly Crusader clan that did not do well in the trials and so was barred from invading the IS with the 4 main clans(Ice Hellion was an odd clan they favored light mechs over anything else this quirk made it hard for them to do well since their mechs were not durable or potent). However failing to place would have marred the honor of the various ranks of Ice Hellion leadership. In order to regain lost Honor they would have to prove themselves through combat and the best way to do that would be to fight against the other homeworld Clans that did better in the trials with prime targets being some of the reserves of clans like the Falcons or the Wolves. The invading clans were the best so they became the yardstick for lesser crusader clans to measure themselves against. Even with the emphasis on minimal destruction clan warfare is made for if 10 Ice Hellion mechs fight 10 clan Wolf mechs over some random objective(tech upgrades, genetic material, land, mech supplies etc ) back in clan space and 18 mechs total are destroyed with a narrow Wolf victory that is 8 less mechs for the IS to fight.
2.SECOND LINE/GARRISON INVADING CLAN TROOPS(Clans Wolf, Ghost Bear, Jade Falcon, Smoke Jags )
Garrsion units from the aforementioned invading Crusaders clans.These Garrison units varied in quantity and quality for each clan typically they did not drive omnimechs and instead drove things like the HunchbackIIC(a short range brawler with the sole purpose to let the old warrior at the controls to die in it with a bit of honor it used clan equipment but was a Star League design it was markedly better than an IS hunchback but did not have the characteristic range of say a Timberwolf or Stormcrow). The pilots of the garrison clusters would probably not been selected to do anything other than garrsion inner sphere holdings and even that might be too much. they were viewed as useless having lived so long. Since the Clans revered the Inner Sphere and Terra especially as a holy place letting honorless warriors(the garrison units) help reclaim it would slight the good forces left behind to maintain order on the SJ GB W JF homeworlds.
3.Warden Clan forces (who were ideologically opposed to invading)/weak crusader clans.
Some clans in the home cluster like the Blood spirits shared the Crusader mindset but thought that the time was not right to invade(they also gave much of their space ships away to another clan the snow ravens and so had limited transport infrastructure). I used to like Clan blood spirit and it was one of my favorites but they were too weak to really contribute much to the war effort even if they joined wholesale. The Fire Mandrills(crusaders) were probably about as strong as Jade Falcon when viewed as an aggregate but were split into many small warring factions that did not work well together and stole from each other from time to time no Fire mandril sect would trust the others enough to donate forces to the war. Warden Clans in general would not be in any hurry to help the Smoke Jaguars(or the other invading clans the SJ did not play well with others even more so than the other clans ) the wardens did not want to fight the IS and would profit from the Jags weakness when they came back to clan space or if they were able to return at all. The train of thought being that the best warriors in the Invading Clans armies would have died against the IS and subsequent inter-clan conflicts would pit the mauled remnants of the Invading clans against the rested Warden Clans or the resentful homeworld Crusader clans who were looking to re-assert themselves.
4.the Crusader Clans in general as a geo-political power Bloc(Ice Hellion Blood Spirit etc)
These clans had not won the various trials to participate in the invasion. the invading clans asking them for help before the appointed phase of the invasion would seem weak and would cause the military leadership of the invading clans to lose face. they were slated to help invade at a certain time but Comstars gamble at Tukkayid came first. So if the clans were not so hidebound by protocol and just spammed as many omnimechs as possible they would have won.
5. Clans like Clan Nova cat
multiple clans were runners up in the trials(they were clearly behind clans like Clan Wolf but were markedly better than clans like the Blood Spirits or Ice Hellions) to determine who would invade and several of them had been activated around the time of the gamble at Tukkayid but they had not been on the scene long enough to crush what resistance remained among the IS. One thing to remember is that these second line crusader clans had to negotiate with former political and military rivals to be allowed to participate. The partnership between the Nova Cats and the Smoke Jaguars(to use the Jags and their attack on mainly the DC as an example again) was not an easy one. The Jags were against the idea of even needing help and so did not facilitate the entry of Nova Cat units until they suffered several strategic reversals. Eventually the Nova Cats defect to the IS the reason this was so easy is that they already controlled some worlds in the IS to allow the other more pre-eminent Crusader clans some operational flexability by taking some of the captured world off their hands.
In summary. if one looks at how many omnimechs, mechs and other standard forces the Clans -AS A WHOLE- own and take into account their basline advantages in terms of equipment and soldier quality and then compare them to what was left of the DC military after Luthien it seems laughable to expect that the DC would survive(or any other IS realm since the clans could choose which place to attack with what forces with near impunity had they brought all the Crusader clans at once doubly so if they used their warships to full effect which the IS could not really match ). however the clans do not operate as a unified force any more than the IS does. So even with their tech advantage they were because of cultural and political reasons pretty close to their breaking point. They even resorted to refurbishing IS mechs and using captured IS mechwarriors to garrison captured IS worlds since they could not spare the real clan warriors for such a task.
1.FRONTLINE INVADING CLAN TROOPS(Clans Wolf, Ghost Bear, Jade Falcon, Smoke Jags )
what remained of clan Smoke Jaguar Clan Wolf Ghost Bear and Falcon units that were frontline omnimechs not needed to maintain clan holdings against homeworld clans(trials of various types surely went on during the Invasion and each homeworld clan needed some good warriors to defend contested clan holdings). For example Clan Ice Hellion was a staunchly Crusader clan that did not do well in the trials and so was barred from invading the IS with the 4 main clans(Ice Hellion was an odd clan they favored light mechs over anything else this quirk made it hard for them to do well since their mechs were not durable or potent). However failing to place would have marred the honor of the various ranks of Ice Hellion leadership. In order to regain lost Honor they would have to prove themselves through combat and the best way to do that would be to fight against the other homeworld Clans that did better in the trials with prime targets being some of the reserves of clans like the Falcons or the Wolves. The invading clans were the best so they became the yardstick for lesser crusader clans to measure themselves against. Even with the emphasis on minimal destruction clan warfare is made for if 10 Ice Hellion mechs fight 10 clan Wolf mechs over some random objective(tech upgrades, genetic material, land, mech supplies etc ) back in clan space and 18 mechs total are destroyed with a narrow Wolf victory that is 8 less mechs for the IS to fight.
2.SECOND LINE/GARRISON INVADING CLAN TROOPS(Clans Wolf, Ghost Bear, Jade Falcon, Smoke Jags )
Garrsion units from the aforementioned invading Crusaders clans.These Garrison units varied in quantity and quality for each clan typically they did not drive omnimechs and instead drove things like the HunchbackIIC(a short range brawler with the sole purpose to let the old warrior at the controls to die in it with a bit of honor it used clan equipment but was a Star League design it was markedly better than an IS hunchback but did not have the characteristic range of say a Timberwolf or Stormcrow). The pilots of the garrison clusters would probably not been selected to do anything other than garrsion inner sphere holdings and even that might be too much. they were viewed as useless having lived so long. Since the Clans revered the Inner Sphere and Terra especially as a holy place letting honorless warriors(the garrison units) help reclaim it would slight the good forces left behind to maintain order on the SJ GB W JF homeworlds.
3.Warden Clan forces (who were ideologically opposed to invading)/weak crusader clans.
Some clans in the home cluster like the Blood spirits shared the Crusader mindset but thought that the time was not right to invade(they also gave much of their space ships away to another clan the snow ravens and so had limited transport infrastructure). I used to like Clan blood spirit and it was one of my favorites but they were too weak to really contribute much to the war effort even if they joined wholesale. The Fire Mandrills(crusaders) were probably about as strong as Jade Falcon when viewed as an aggregate but were split into many small warring factions that did not work well together and stole from each other from time to time no Fire mandril sect would trust the others enough to donate forces to the war. Warden Clans in general would not be in any hurry to help the Smoke Jaguars(or the other invading clans the SJ did not play well with others even more so than the other clans ) the wardens did not want to fight the IS and would profit from the Jags weakness when they came back to clan space or if they were able to return at all. The train of thought being that the best warriors in the Invading Clans armies would have died against the IS and subsequent inter-clan conflicts would pit the mauled remnants of the Invading clans against the rested Warden Clans or the resentful homeworld Crusader clans who were looking to re-assert themselves.
4.the Crusader Clans in general as a geo-political power Bloc(Ice Hellion Blood Spirit etc)
These clans had not won the various trials to participate in the invasion. the invading clans asking them for help before the appointed phase of the invasion would seem weak and would cause the military leadership of the invading clans to lose face. they were slated to help invade at a certain time but Comstars gamble at Tukkayid came first. So if the clans were not so hidebound by protocol and just spammed as many omnimechs as possible they would have won.
5. Clans like Clan Nova cat
multiple clans were runners up in the trials(they were clearly behind clans like Clan Wolf but were markedly better than clans like the Blood Spirits or Ice Hellions) to determine who would invade and several of them had been activated around the time of the gamble at Tukkayid but they had not been on the scene long enough to crush what resistance remained among the IS. One thing to remember is that these second line crusader clans had to negotiate with former political and military rivals to be allowed to participate. The partnership between the Nova Cats and the Smoke Jaguars(to use the Jags and their attack on mainly the DC as an example again) was not an easy one. The Jags were against the idea of even needing help and so did not facilitate the entry of Nova Cat units until they suffered several strategic reversals. Eventually the Nova Cats defect to the IS the reason this was so easy is that they already controlled some worlds in the IS to allow the other more pre-eminent Crusader clans some operational flexability by taking some of the captured world off their hands.
In summary. if one looks at how many omnimechs, mechs and other standard forces the Clans -AS A WHOLE- own and take into account their basline advantages in terms of equipment and soldier quality and then compare them to what was left of the DC military after Luthien it seems laughable to expect that the DC would survive(or any other IS realm since the clans could choose which place to attack with what forces with near impunity had they brought all the Crusader clans at once doubly so if they used their warships to full effect which the IS could not really match ). however the clans do not operate as a unified force any more than the IS does. So even with their tech advantage they were because of cultural and political reasons pretty close to their breaking point. They even resorted to refurbishing IS mechs and using captured IS mechwarriors to garrison captured IS worlds since they could not spare the real clan warriors for such a task.
Edited by Ruhkil, 29 March 2014 - 09:06 AM.
#11
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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:32 PM
Lukoi, on 28 March 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:
Go back and reread my edited post.
Secondly...you assume fresh supplies. Why? Secondly, logistics were their achilles heel at Tukkayid and in fact, long term would have always been their achilles heel. They did not have the manpower to garrison, resupply or "rekey" their own losses (not without bringing in fresh assets from home and potentially Clans that had been bid out such as the Adders).
Your argument seems to rely primarily on the status of the House Lord armies. My point includes Comstar's Army, which was significant. The Clans brought less personnel, which is matched proportionally by the greater casualty rate they incurred.
The DCMS, FWL (the major industrial powerhouse of the IS, which was still in good shape) and the AFFC were not depleted as you describe.
Again, the Clans imo, were further along to culminating than you portray and Ulric's comments as well as Fochts in Lost Destiny support this point of view. Tukkayid was portrayed as a valiant last stand, but that's just as likely against the possibility of a Pyrrhic victory as it is the dying gasp of the entire IS.
Secondly...you assume fresh supplies. Why? Secondly, logistics were their achilles heel at Tukkayid and in fact, long term would have always been their achilles heel. They did not have the manpower to garrison, resupply or "rekey" their own losses (not without bringing in fresh assets from home and potentially Clans that had been bid out such as the Adders).
Your argument seems to rely primarily on the status of the House Lord armies. My point includes Comstar's Army, which was significant. The Clans brought less personnel, which is matched proportionally by the greater casualty rate they incurred.
The DCMS, FWL (the major industrial powerhouse of the IS, which was still in good shape) and the AFFC were not depleted as you describe.
Again, the Clans imo, were further along to culminating than you portray and Ulric's comments as well as Fochts in Lost Destiny support this point of view. Tukkayid was portrayed as a valiant last stand, but that's just as likely against the possibility of a Pyrrhic victory as it is the dying gasp of the entire IS.
OK, well its all point in time I guess cause I am not disagreeing with your sentiment.
I think that as the whole Tukayyid thing was about to be negotiated, the Clans had every reason to be confident of reaching Terra.
They were smashing through FRR, Luthien was assumed to be a victory (falsely as it turns out) which would see the DC collapse and JF looked pretty good. There was no "Comguard" at this time so the Clans didn't have to worry about them and their only issues were a slump in logistics, garrisons (as I said previously) and an Il Khan plotting their failure.
If we look at the Star map, Terra is circa 6 jumps away from they wave 5 line. They are a little over half way to their goal. They have obliterated (as in removed from the IS TO&E) over 25 regiments including 5 complete RCT's and have a huge spear tip pointing straight towards Terra.
Heres the relative losses (Source, 20 year update force deployments as of 3048 & 3050 TRO list of destroyed units)
FRR - Total strength 16 regiments 2 battalions (includes mercenaries), losses, 8 regiments including mercenaries 48%
FC (Tamar March) - Total Strength 38 regiments 1 Battalion, losses 18 Regiments / RCTs 2 Battalion 49%
DC (Pesht District) Total strength 16 regiments, losses 6 regiments 37%
These are just the units completely wiped off the TO&E, and does not include those chewed up but able to retreat (in many cases its a battalion or 4 companies left of a regiment)
Clans recorded losses from To&E, Jade Falcon Guard (reformed in time for Tukayyid) and Eyrie Cluster.
The IS lines are extending and they have less troops to defend those fronts now. They can call on other fronts to replace the losses sure but that then imperils the task they were doing. The political requirement of garrisoning hostile borders means the only realistic source of reinforcement is Capital / interior garrisons.
You get a couple from Tharkad, Hesperus 2 more, places like Donegal get you another. A couple of Militia's too is probably realistic to rebuild the Lyran fronts. So maybe 8 regiments to replace 18 so far. From FS side you get 4 from New Avalon, a couple of Militia's and maybe a big merc like the 4 regiments of the Illican Lancers. Strip a few more out the Syrtis March and Robinson March and you get maybe 20 regiments? Your Skye defenses are (hopefully) now the FRR so you feed this 20 regimentss into LC line to rebuild "Tamar Front" and you get around 10 regiments (10 to replace the line defenses of LC front) as a strategic reserve vs the 36 Clusters the three reserve Clans "free up" amongst the Clans (3 galaxies each, 4 Clusters per Galaxy average)
The successful IS counter attack at Twycross was executed by 2 elite mercenary regiments and 2 complete RCT's which is circa 480 battlemechs and they fought the Jade Falcon Eyrie Cluster (the Guard being famously eliminated by Kai without engaging the main forces). That numbered 50 Battlemechs, 8 of which were Omnis (Jade Falcon Sourcebook p 67 - 68) and the IS forces came close to loosing before reversing their fortunes.
If that ratio holds up, the IS are going to continue to bleed at a much faster rate than the Clans which they cannot replace. Their strategic reserve is at best 1 v 1, odds which the IS has never won at. Where ever VSD concentrates to counter attack, the Clans are hitting in 3 other places.
I just think its far easier and quicker for the Clans to replace missiles and ball bearings than for the IS forces to replace machines and pilots. 2 Clans had virtually done nothing to the IS (Steel Vipers and Diamond Sharks) and Nova Cats had seen a little more action but primarily only on Luthien.
If these three reserve Clans were not set to fighting each other by Ulric than I suspect the garrison issues are easily managed (not eliminated, it will take a while) and free up more than enough troops for another 6 month 'dash' which would take Terra. If the IS could muster troops for a counter attack, they would face heavy casualities further eroding their ability to hold their own lines.
However what does happen is that the Comguard is revealed and Clans being Clans take on the big show piece battle and we all know how that goes.
But if it were not for that, I think the worst case scenario with a Il Khan wanting to win was wave 6 finishing about 3 jumps from Terra, a 6 to 12 months pause to tidy up supplies and then a 3 wave / month drive for Terra which would have been tough, but ultimately the IS would have to choose between defending the road to Terra or defending their other systems.
For the FC that would have been to defend Terra as the link between the 2 states, for the DC that would not, they would more likely fall back protecting the bulk of their people (assuming they survive after Luthien).
Could the FC have held? The pluses are that the Sarna March forces are getting closer to the fight and become more realistic as combatants. The polictical will would be strong, to keep the realm united. It's going to be close. I can see FS systems being stripped and troops thrown in, LC garrisons grimly falling back one system at a time. I can see Liao taking advantage, and some dissident Mariks too. VSD is going to have to make some really tough calls and even if he gets them right, I'm not confident for the FC. They need FWL to come to their aid in a big way if they are to prevail imo. If FWL don't, its game over for the FC imo, and with DC falling back away from the centre the Clans get Terra.
Up until Tukayyid, the Clans would only have thought they had to fight FC and DC. Comguard was unrevealed, FWL was a Comstar stooge and Focht would have been saying "don't worry about them" and Liao might as well have been in another Galaxy. With hindsight we know things turn out differently, but thats life
#12
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Posted 29 March 2014 - 08:46 PM
Craig Steele, on 28 March 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:
Well, this is interesting.
Imo far from loosing the Clans were winning the war. It's one of the primary reasons Comstar jumped in and negotiated for Tukayyid.
The FC flank was burnt out, there were minimal reserves except capital garrisons and if you take an IS view, that had only been by one Clan, the Jade Falcons. Now it is seemingly reinforced by another Clan (Steel Viper) so the FC guys are doing the proverbial in their pants.
On the DC flank, it's a similar story. Harder fighting, SJ took some knocks but they are coming back stronger and also reinforced by another Clan, Nova Cat. Takashi and Theodore were divided on defending Luthien and that was only 1 jump away and under immenent threat. Loose Luthien and you may well have wiped out the DC. They do manage to hold it but only by the barest of margins and it took 16 regiments to do so.
In the middle, Wolf and Ghost Bear look like the tip of spear, they are in their 5th wave riding over virtually zero opposition.
So from an IS side, who's left to fight? You have some reserves a long way back like Avalon garrison and New Syrtis garrison. Marik is opening up the supply lockers but not exactly racing to the front with troops. Liao is just aching for FC to move some troops so they can attack them, they don't even care about the Clans. Romano left it clear she wasn't co operating.
So who's left to fight? No one but Com Star.
I think the canon paints a picture that if Comstar did not have a "surprise' army with 10k+ mechs, the Clans would have taken Terra.
The question then is, would the House lords submit if they did, unlikely. But it's irrelevant then. The race to Terra was to determine the Il Clan, and once that was done there was no reason for the remaining Clans to not come to the Inner Sphere. It was Nicholas's words that they would and they all believed they would, with the question of Il Clan decided the House Lords would soon be facing the other Clans.
Actually I have to agree with Craig here. Most of my arguments were made in the "Battle of Tukayyid Question" thread but here are the main points Grimwill:
Era Report 3052
Quote
Wolf hit a button on his podium. The room lights dimmed as a holographic map of the Inner Sphere burned to life in the center of the semi-circle. It slowly rotated so everyone could get a good look, then it split into smaller representations of itself, with one hovering before each delegation's table. As Victor leaned forward to study the map, fear writhed like a snake through his belly.
Normally the Successor States and the worlds they claimed formed a rough circle of star systems approximately 370 light years in diameter, with the circle centered on Terra. On this map, however, a huge chunk had been bitten out of the circle, making it a fat crescent with both horns pointing up and away from the chamber floor. Though the ravaged Free Rasalhague Republic lay at the center of the conquered area, bites had also been taken out of both the Lyran sector of the Federated Commonwealth and from the Draconis Combine.
Victor leaned forward toward his father. "I didn't realize the Combine had been hit so hard. They've lost as many worlds as have we."
Hanse pressed his lips together into a thin line. "I daresay, from the expression on Theodore's face, he was not aware that we'd been hard-hit either. Wolf's intelligence network is very good. Things are much worse than any of us dared imagine."
Wolf waved a hand to include all the maps. "As you can see, the situation is most grave. The Free Rasalhague Republic has lost its capital and over half its worlds. The invaders have also made substantial gains in the Lyran Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine. In less than a year, they have managed to take more worlds than changed hands in the Fourth Succession War, and the efforts to stop them have been less than effective.
Normally the Successor States and the worlds they claimed formed a rough circle of star systems approximately 370 light years in diameter, with the circle centered on Terra. On this map, however, a huge chunk had been bitten out of the circle, making it a fat crescent with both horns pointing up and away from the chamber floor. Though the ravaged Free Rasalhague Republic lay at the center of the conquered area, bites had also been taken out of both the Lyran sector of the Federated Commonwealth and from the Draconis Combine.
Victor leaned forward toward his father. "I didn't realize the Combine had been hit so hard. They've lost as many worlds as have we."
Hanse pressed his lips together into a thin line. "I daresay, from the expression on Theodore's face, he was not aware that we'd been hard-hit either. Wolf's intelligence network is very good. Things are much worse than any of us dared imagine."
Wolf waved a hand to include all the maps. "As you can see, the situation is most grave. The Free Rasalhague Republic has lost its capital and over half its worlds. The invaders have also made substantial gains in the Lyran Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine. In less than a year, they have managed to take more worlds than changed hands in the Fourth Succession War, and the efforts to stop them have been less than effective.
Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 2 - Blood Legacy
Grimwill, on 28 March 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:
It is clear to be at least that even before Ulric Kerensky had bid his forces against comstar, the clans were will on their way to losing the invasion. The Inner sphere powers had engage the clans in a war of attrition and with IS victories in Lyran and Draconis Combine the inner sphere was able to hold out their own against the clan's omnimechs. So this isn't much of a discussion about Tukayyid because in my opinion the war was pretty much lost.
My feeling is this...the clans mismanaged the invasion badly. Their own clan culture and pride hurt their efforts. In my opinion they could of used more of their reserve forces and other clans rather then allow themselves to be worn thin. We know that their were four clans that won the right to be the front line invasion (Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, and Smoke Jag) and then three more in reserves (Nova Cat, Steel Viper and Diamond Shark.
But what about the other clans???
Here's what i would of done if i was ikhan
3 waves of invading forces
First wave - Clan Wolf, Clan Jade Falcon. Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Smoke Jagaer
First wave goes in first, they are the front line and in charge of capturing the IS planets
Second Wave - Clan Nova Cat, Clan Diamond Shark, Clan Steel Viper,
They come in a replace garrison troops of the front line clans and fight against any rebellions or insurgencies. They supply the front line (Clan Nova Cat has some of the best logistic out of any clan). They do not have the right to engage in a trial of position for the first waves captured planets but can take any other planet that is not be captured.
Third wave- ALL THE OTHER CLANS
They come in shortly after the second wave and when the second wave moves toward the front lines to capture worlds. Establishes supply lines much like the second wave. Do not have the right to fight a trial of position.
My feeling is this...the clans mismanaged the invasion badly. Their own clan culture and pride hurt their efforts. In my opinion they could of used more of their reserve forces and other clans rather then allow themselves to be worn thin. We know that their were four clans that won the right to be the front line invasion (Wolf, Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, and Smoke Jag) and then three more in reserves (Nova Cat, Steel Viper and Diamond Shark.
But what about the other clans???
Here's what i would of done if i was ikhan
3 waves of invading forces
First wave - Clan Wolf, Clan Jade Falcon. Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Smoke Jagaer
First wave goes in first, they are the front line and in charge of capturing the IS planets
Second Wave - Clan Nova Cat, Clan Diamond Shark, Clan Steel Viper,
They come in a replace garrison troops of the front line clans and fight against any rebellions or insurgencies. They supply the front line (Clan Nova Cat has some of the best logistic out of any clan). They do not have the right to engage in a trial of position for the first waves captured planets but can take any other planet that is not be captured.
Third wave- ALL THE OTHER CLANS
They come in shortly after the second wave and when the second wave moves toward the front lines to capture worlds. Establishes supply lines much like the second wave. Do not have the right to fight a trial of position.
As shown above from the source material it is NOT clear that the Clans were losing. On the contrary we were winning & convincingly so.
It is in fact, the SS who were on their way to losing. Even after the YoP, when the SS had a chance to meet, agree to work together, get intelligence, training & equipment from the Dragoons, we employed new tactics to counter these advancements, which negated their gains.The picture shown above as stated is from Era Report 3052. This was done after everything occurred & people sat down, looked at the facts, analyzed the data & drew conclusions from the evidence they had. THE INNER SPHERE WAS LOSING THE WAR BADLY. It says it right there in black & white.
EDIT: Added the last paragraph.
EDIT: Changed date to data.
Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 02 February 2015 - 05:03 AM.
#13
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Posted 30 March 2014 - 06:43 AM
You also have to remember that the tide was turning against the clans, the IS were losing before Tukayyid but other things were in motion and the clans were starting to stall.
The Outreach summit heralded the start of it all, with the cease fire letting the Combine and Lyrian side of the commonwealth pull all it's troops of the southern borders to face the invaders. Luthien was attacked by 5 galaxies and less than half of that was able to withdraw which are huge losses on that front, and that was already after the Smoke Jaguars were levying 'freebirth' clusters and giving prospective warriors a second chance at the trial of position to bolster numbers. Despite planetary gains the Jaguar corridor was on the ropes before the Combine pulled everything off the Davion border to throw at them.
The Free Worlds League, Confederation and St. Ives Compact were also starting to get involved with munitions, troops and all the other goodies, Comstar Warships were engaged in actions around Luthien even before Tukayyid. Tukayyid WAS a major turning point, it turned Bulldog from a mass defensive counter attack into something that wiped out the biggest and most effective clan and took the IS to the Clan homeworlds.
Even if the Clans had made it to Terra, they were never going to capture or hold it, Comstar held their own well enough against 20~ galaxies of troops in a Proxy battle, and that was without the Comstar fleet which handled itself admirably against the Jaguars, shelling them as they tried to land. Terra also has the unfortunate implications of being A: the center point of the HPG network, and B: Within spitting distance of every faction in the Innersphere, so the Clans that got to it were pretty much doomed since they were no longer fighting just the Lyrians and Combine. The clans would have almost certainly made it to Terra, because the Rasalhague Republic is a demilitarized hole that didn't put up much of a fight, but I highly doubt they would have taken it, and it would have been the death of any clan that tried.
The Outreach summit heralded the start of it all, with the cease fire letting the Combine and Lyrian side of the commonwealth pull all it's troops of the southern borders to face the invaders. Luthien was attacked by 5 galaxies and less than half of that was able to withdraw which are huge losses on that front, and that was already after the Smoke Jaguars were levying 'freebirth' clusters and giving prospective warriors a second chance at the trial of position to bolster numbers. Despite planetary gains the Jaguar corridor was on the ropes before the Combine pulled everything off the Davion border to throw at them.
The Free Worlds League, Confederation and St. Ives Compact were also starting to get involved with munitions, troops and all the other goodies, Comstar Warships were engaged in actions around Luthien even before Tukayyid. Tukayyid WAS a major turning point, it turned Bulldog from a mass defensive counter attack into something that wiped out the biggest and most effective clan and took the IS to the Clan homeworlds.
Even if the Clans had made it to Terra, they were never going to capture or hold it, Comstar held their own well enough against 20~ galaxies of troops in a Proxy battle, and that was without the Comstar fleet which handled itself admirably against the Jaguars, shelling them as they tried to land. Terra also has the unfortunate implications of being A: the center point of the HPG network, and B: Within spitting distance of every faction in the Innersphere, so the Clans that got to it were pretty much doomed since they were no longer fighting just the Lyrians and Combine. The clans would have almost certainly made it to Terra, because the Rasalhague Republic is a demilitarized hole that didn't put up much of a fight, but I highly doubt they would have taken it, and it would have been the death of any clan that tried.
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Posted 30 March 2014 - 02:32 PM
CheeseThief, on 30 March 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:
You also have to remember that the tide was turning against the clans, the IS were losing before Tukayyid but other things were in motion and the clans were starting to stall.
The Outreach summit heralded the start of it all, with the cease fire letting the Combine and Lyrian side of the commonwealth pull all it's troops of the southern borders to face the invaders. Luthien was attacked by 5 galaxies and less than half of that was able to withdraw which are huge losses on that front, and that was already after the Smoke Jaguars were levying 'freebirth' clusters and giving prospective warriors a second chance at the trial of position to bolster numbers. Despite planetary gains the Jaguar corridor was on the ropes before the Combine pulled everything off the Davion border to throw at them.
The Free Worlds League, Confederation and St. Ives Compact were also starting to get involved with munitions, troops and all the other goodies, Comstar Warships were engaged in actions around Luthien even before Tukayyid. Tukayyid WAS a major turning point, it turned Bulldog from a mass defensive counter attack into something that wiped out the biggest and most effective clan and took the IS to the Clan homeworlds.
Even if the Clans had made it to Terra, they were never going to capture or hold it, Comstar held their own well enough against 20~ galaxies of troops in a Proxy battle, and that was without the Comstar fleet which handled itself admirably against the Jaguars, shelling them as they tried to land. Terra also has the unfortunate implications of being A: the center point of the HPG network, and B: Within spitting distance of every faction in the Innersphere, so the Clans that got to it were pretty much doomed since they were no longer fighting just the Lyrians and Combine. The clans would have almost certainly made it to Terra, because the Rasalhague Republic is a demilitarized hole that didn't put up much of a fight, but I highly doubt they would have taken it, and it would have been the death of any clan that tried.
The Outreach summit heralded the start of it all, with the cease fire letting the Combine and Lyrian side of the commonwealth pull all it's troops of the southern borders to face the invaders. Luthien was attacked by 5 galaxies and less than half of that was able to withdraw which are huge losses on that front, and that was already after the Smoke Jaguars were levying 'freebirth' clusters and giving prospective warriors a second chance at the trial of position to bolster numbers. Despite planetary gains the Jaguar corridor was on the ropes before the Combine pulled everything off the Davion border to throw at them.
The Free Worlds League, Confederation and St. Ives Compact were also starting to get involved with munitions, troops and all the other goodies, Comstar Warships were engaged in actions around Luthien even before Tukayyid. Tukayyid WAS a major turning point, it turned Bulldog from a mass defensive counter attack into something that wiped out the biggest and most effective clan and took the IS to the Clan homeworlds.
Even if the Clans had made it to Terra, they were never going to capture or hold it, Comstar held their own well enough against 20~ galaxies of troops in a Proxy battle, and that was without the Comstar fleet which handled itself admirably against the Jaguars, shelling them as they tried to land. Terra also has the unfortunate implications of being A: the center point of the HPG network, and B: Within spitting distance of every faction in the Innersphere, so the Clans that got to it were pretty much doomed since they were no longer fighting just the Lyrians and Combine. The clans would have almost certainly made it to Terra, because the Rasalhague Republic is a demilitarized hole that didn't put up much of a fight, but I highly doubt they would have taken it, and it would have been the death of any clan that tried.
Eventually the clans would have to face comstar and given that comstar's military was secret squirrel stuff they would of had no intell whatsoever on their order of battle
But also by the time they reached the comstar protectorate the clans attack corridors would of meet with each other, so rather then facing one clan. Comstar would of had to faced all four invading clans in a joint offensive. Then as i said before if you also included all the reserve forces and the other clans...comstar however big they are would of been up against clans who have on average 5 to 8 galaxies. All sixteen clans would of totaled at least 250 galaxies of mechwarriors not counting elemental infantry, aerospace and so forth. Even if some of the galaxies were not at full strength or garrison elsewhere the clans could easily managed to deploy over 100 galaxies to invade the comstar protectorate and given that Terra is the prize i wouldn't be surprised if they order garrison galaxies in captured IS space to move toward comstar.
With the seven invading clans including the 3 clans that one rights as reserve forces they limited themselves to somewhere around 56 galaxies.....not exactly a overwhelming force and this at full strength not counted the galaxies that are already garrison or who are not at full strength
#15
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Posted 30 March 2014 - 03:54 PM
CheeseThief, on 30 March 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:
You also have to remember that the tide was turning against the clans, the IS were losing before Tukayyid but other things were in motion and the clans were starting to stall.
The Outreach summit heralded the start of it all, with the cease fire letting the Combine and Lyrian side of the commonwealth pull all it's troops of the southern borders to face the invaders. Luthien was attacked by 5 galaxies and less than half of that was able to withdraw which are huge losses on that front, and that was already after the Smoke Jaguars were levying 'freebirth' clusters and giving prospective warriors a second chance at the trial of position to bolster numbers. Despite planetary gains the Jaguar corridor was on the ropes before the Combine pulled everything off the Davion border to throw at them.
The Free Worlds League, Confederation and St. Ives Compact were also starting to get involved with munitions, troops and all the other goodies, Comstar Warships were engaged in actions around Luthien even before Tukayyid. Tukayyid WAS a major turning point, it turned Bulldog from a mass defensive counter attack into something that wiped out the biggest and most effective clan and took the IS to the Clan homeworlds.
Even if the Clans had made it to Terra, they were never going to capture or hold it, Comstar held their own well enough against 20~ galaxies of troops in a Proxy battle, and that was without the Comstar fleet which handled itself admirably against the Jaguars, shelling them as they tried to land. Terra also has the unfortunate implications of being A: the center point of the HPG network, and B: Within spitting distance of every faction in the Innersphere, so the Clans that got to it were pretty much doomed since they were no longer fighting just the Lyrians and Combine. The clans would have almost certainly made it to Terra, because the Rasalhague Republic is a demilitarized hole that didn't put up much of a fight, but I highly doubt they would have taken it, and it would have been the death of any clan that tried.
The Outreach summit heralded the start of it all, with the cease fire letting the Combine and Lyrian side of the commonwealth pull all it's troops of the southern borders to face the invaders. Luthien was attacked by 5 galaxies and less than half of that was able to withdraw which are huge losses on that front, and that was already after the Smoke Jaguars were levying 'freebirth' clusters and giving prospective warriors a second chance at the trial of position to bolster numbers. Despite planetary gains the Jaguar corridor was on the ropes before the Combine pulled everything off the Davion border to throw at them.
The Free Worlds League, Confederation and St. Ives Compact were also starting to get involved with munitions, troops and all the other goodies, Comstar Warships were engaged in actions around Luthien even before Tukayyid. Tukayyid WAS a major turning point, it turned Bulldog from a mass defensive counter attack into something that wiped out the biggest and most effective clan and took the IS to the Clan homeworlds.
Even if the Clans had made it to Terra, they were never going to capture or hold it, Comstar held their own well enough against 20~ galaxies of troops in a Proxy battle, and that was without the Comstar fleet which handled itself admirably against the Jaguars, shelling them as they tried to land. Terra also has the unfortunate implications of being A: the center point of the HPG network, and B: Within spitting distance of every faction in the Innersphere, so the Clans that got to it were pretty much doomed since they were no longer fighting just the Lyrians and Combine. The clans would have almost certainly made it to Terra, because the Rasalhague Republic is a demilitarized hole that didn't put up much of a fight, but I highly doubt they would have taken it, and it would have been the death of any clan that tried.
On Luthien, sure the Clans took casualities. It was a big scrap.
But they fully repleaced their losses in time for Tukayyid, which was only 2 / 3 months afterwards.
The IS had no such ability to replace losses, it was struggling.
The flow of munitions was starting in 3051, but the distances are significant. For any volume of material to arrive takes time and drop ships and wasn't something that happens over night. But it wasn't munitions and supplies that were the IS problem, they lacked troops.
I have not heard before the the Comguard / Navy took part in any action prior to Tukayyid against the Clans. Whats your source on this? Would be good to know.
The OP was expressing that prior to Tukayyid, the Clans were loosing and could have done it better. What I submit is that prior to Tukayyid the Clans were winning. Not as convincingly as they first thought but winning none the less. They had some problems they did not envisage, but they were much easier to overcome than the damage they had already wrought upon the IS forces. Indeed up until Leo dies the momentum is all Clans and things are looking good for them.
Comguard was a hidden army and no one could have anticipated it appearing.
That the Clans had to face another 10k+ mechs (think about that number, thats the entire FWL & Cap Con TO&E together) that they had not planned on fighting was the tipping point. That and a new Il Khan activily planning for his army to lose.
#16
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Posted 30 March 2014 - 04:52 PM
if you really want to know the folly of the clans, it lies in a single thing. They had WARSHIPS. The Inner Sphere did NOT. Not using their capital ships was a severe tactical and Strategic blunder. Had they used them, even those for just the 4 invading clans, they'd have rolled right on to Terra and not even Comstar would have stopped them.
#17
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Posted 30 March 2014 - 05:09 PM
Most likely because:
Clans invade with supreme Tech and Pilots -> Clans crush the IS within 2 Weeks -> End of Story
would make for a REALLY bad game?
Clans invade with supreme Tech and Pilots -> Clans crush the IS within 2 Weeks -> End of Story
would make for a REALLY bad game?
#18
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- The Vicious
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Posted 30 March 2014 - 05:22 PM
Exactly what I have been saying for however long now.
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Posted 30 March 2014 - 05:26 PM
Marack Drock, on 30 March 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:
Okay (correct my Lore if I am wrong I am still learning much), I do know the Clans had limited transports and supplies etc to send to the front but there were 17 Clans at the time of the war. There are several reasons I think they didn't send in the reserves-
1. The Clans are a Honor and Warrior based society and the reserves would most likely be the old withered (30 year olds) and maybe some of the disgraced soldiers or soldiers who had not had a chance to serve and gain honor. This means the Clans would be reluctant to send them do to pride.
2. One thing I noticed is that there were 6 Clans for 6 Factions of the Inner Sphere. The Clans take pride in their "Fairness" type stuff and keeping it equal I think they saw as a sign of honor. Sending in more forces would mean they admitted that the greatest of them were weak and must be aided.
3. Internal Strife. During the war Clan SJ made several attacks towards Luthien. After each failure they brought out their wrath on their Nova Cat allies. All of the Invaders ended up waylaying and damaging Clan Wolf throughout the war because the Crusaders knew they would lose the title of ilClan if they did (and could not bare to have it be a Warden).
4. Ignorance. I do think because they were so OP that they lost sight of the fact the Inner Sphere knew how to play dirty war (which the Wolf's Dragoons did warn the Clans of but only Clan Wolf heeded these warnings to my knowledge). This ignorance led them to believe they wouldn't need reserves IMO.
5. CONSPIRACY WARNING!- I do believe that the Wardens wanted the Clans to lose and may have planted the idea of ultimate success in the Crusader's minds and could have played on the idea that they could easily win (which IMO they could have if they had used their reserves).
-Note: No need to read this if you don't believe in BT conspiracy theories-
I believe all these things had major impacts as to why they didn't send in the reserves. Feel free to correct me.
1. The Clans are a Honor and Warrior based society and the reserves would most likely be the old withered (30 year olds) and maybe some of the disgraced soldiers or soldiers who had not had a chance to serve and gain honor. This means the Clans would be reluctant to send them do to pride.
2. One thing I noticed is that there were 6 Clans for 6 Factions of the Inner Sphere. The Clans take pride in their "Fairness" type stuff and keeping it equal I think they saw as a sign of honor. Sending in more forces would mean they admitted that the greatest of them were weak and must be aided.
3. Internal Strife. During the war Clan SJ made several attacks towards Luthien. After each failure they brought out their wrath on their Nova Cat allies. All of the Invaders ended up waylaying and damaging Clan Wolf throughout the war because the Crusaders knew they would lose the title of ilClan if they did (and could not bare to have it be a Warden).
4. Ignorance. I do think because they were so OP that they lost sight of the fact the Inner Sphere knew how to play dirty war (which the Wolf's Dragoons did warn the Clans of but only Clan Wolf heeded these warnings to my knowledge). This ignorance led them to believe they wouldn't need reserves IMO.
5. CONSPIRACY WARNING!- I do believe that the Wardens wanted the Clans to lose and may have planted the idea of ultimate success in the Crusader's minds and could have played on the idea that they could easily win (which IMO they could have if they had used their reserves).
-Note: No need to read this if you don't believe in BT conspiracy theories-
I believe all these things had major impacts as to why they didn't send in the reserves. Feel free to correct me.
OK, I'll offer up some stuff here but not to 'correct' you, simply to share the canon I have for better understanding / immersion. I'll be drawing on multiple sources (primarily Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon Source Books, Invading Clans, Warrior of Kerensky and Field Manuals Warden & Crusader) but I won't "quote" to much for space. Feel free to ask for clarification on any points you think are out of line and I will recheck them.
So firstly, its important to understand that each Clan was an individual army with its own "front line", "reserve" and "support". Think like WW2, there's the British and Americans being the big guys, but theres the Free French, the Poles, the Canadians and so on all with their own "toumans".
Every single one of these Clans believed in Nicholas' words that sooner or later, they HAD to go back to the Inner Sphere and "save" humanity form the evil House Lords. It was their purpose, destiny. It's why they spend all their time trying to be the best warriors for this 'ultimate' showdown with the Houses. Nicholas said that the Clan that secures Terra will be the Il Clan, and be eternally the dominant Clan over all the other Clans for acheiving such a tremendous act.
When the Outbound Light shows up, Leo Showers makes an argument that their sworn enemy knows where they are, and it's possible given what they knew that the IS forces come for them. Remember the Clans consider the IS their enemy, and culturally the expect their enemies to attack them, cause thats what they do to their enemies.
The Grand Council sits and decides by a vote (16 - 1) that if they must fight the House Lords, it's better to do so on House Lords planets than risk Clan civilians and factories in the conflageration. They vote to invade immediately.
Now they plan the Invasion. The thought process here is that the IS are going to be easy to defeat when the Clans go for them, and so they won't need all the Clans. In fact, initially they thought only 2 Clans would be required, with possibly a 3rd to mop up. There is no need for all 17 CLans to actually go. So they hold trials to determine the ranking of the Clans to establish which are the "best' ones to take on the Inner Sphere. That way the Invasion is an honourable fight and not a complete steam roller. This aspect becomes very important later on in Clan politics.
The outright placings are not known (afaik), but we know Jade Falcon, Smoke Jaguar and Ghost Bear are the top 3, and that Nova Cat, Diamond Shark and Steel Vipers are the next 3. Clan Wolf does not fight in these trials, the Grand Council grants them permission to go as the custodians of Kerensky's genes.
By now the Clans have decided 4 Clans is required for the Invasion (JF, SJ, GB and CW), and a 5th will be the Strategic Reserve (SV). All the other Clans have proven themselves not strong enough to be part of the Invasion and so are effectivily blocked from ever going to the IS until Terra is captured. They will never be the Il Clan.
Each of the first 4 take only a fraction of their touman which they all consider sufficient for the task of taking Terra. Depending on Clan, they contain their own reseverses / garrison as well. Eg, Clan Jade Falcon had their Eyries and Solhama Clusters for garrison duties embedded in each Galaxy. Clan Wolf had a seperate Galaxy of pure garrison troops.
They leave in late 3048 / early 49 and start seizing Perpiphary Worlds in late 3049. Then they take a deep breath, check the magazines and in March 3050, they go hard.
On the Warden conspiracy thing, thats kinda hard to tell. Certainly before the Invasion, every Warden Clan believed they would be returning to the Inner Sphere (even Clan Wolf) and it was largely the timing of the return that seperated the two parties. The exception to this is Ulric. He outright wants to protect the Inner Sphere from the Clans themselves as early as 3048 (and probably before) and he point blank fights to stop the Invasion every step of the way.
Eventually other Clans come around to his way of thinking largely after Turtle Bay which saw the civilians the Wardens were supposed to be protecting take a fall. But until then, every Warden Clan wanted to get to Terra just as much as the Crusaders. The Steel Vipers actually maintain a Warden stance since Mercer set their politics in circa 2860 (about 50 years after the Clans commenced) which required then to exterminate every House Lord and IS ruler and replace them with Steel Viper Trueborns so they could "educate" the IS in Clan ways, try and tell the IS the SV Wardens are on their side
. The Warden politics was definitely no saviour of the IS, but Ulric certainly is.A lot of the internal strife in the canon is escalated because the Clans are feuding for many years before the Invasion, and so its easy to take petty knocks out of spite. Had the deployments been different (eg, Diamond Shark with Jade Falcon, Steel Viper with Jags and Nova Cat with Wolf / Ghost Bear) there would be very little internal rivalry / feuds and we would not see the competition we do. The Clans are however deployed as they are as Ulric sees this as another method to stopping the Invasion.
So there you go, hopefully that sheds a bit of light on the background to the invasion and why the Clans fought the way they did.
@Shameless. They sure did, but Warships don't hold cities or manufacturing plants. They don't garrison worlds. Unless you're a proponent of the Turtle Bay method of conflict resolution, the Warships had nothing to fight and nothing to do until 3059. They were glorified transports largely and ones that were highly susceptable to Aerospace attack. And the IS had plenty of those.
#20
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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:20 AM
Grimwill, on 30 March 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:
Eventually the clans would have to face comstar and given that comstar's military was secret squirrel stuff they would of had no intell whatsoever on their order of battle
But also by the time they reached the comstar protectorate the clans attack corridors would of meet with each other, so rather then facing one clan. Comstar would of had to faced all four invading clans in a joint offensive. Then as i said before if you also included all the reserve forces and the other clans...comstar however big they are would of been up against clans who have on average 5 to 8 galaxies. All sixteen clans would of totaled at least 250 galaxies of mechwarriors not counting elemental infantry, aerospace and so forth. Even if some of the galaxies were not at full strength or garrison elsewhere the clans could easily managed to deploy over 100 galaxies to invade the comstar protectorate and given that Terra is the prize i wouldn't be surprised if they order garrison galaxies in captured IS space to move toward comstar.
With the seven invading clans including the 3 clans that one rights as reserve forces they limited themselves to somewhere around 56 galaxies.....not exactly a overwhelming force and this at full strength not counted the galaxies that are already garrison or who are not at full strength
But also by the time they reached the comstar protectorate the clans attack corridors would of meet with each other, so rather then facing one clan. Comstar would of had to faced all four invading clans in a joint offensive. Then as i said before if you also included all the reserve forces and the other clans...comstar however big they are would of been up against clans who have on average 5 to 8 galaxies. All sixteen clans would of totaled at least 250 galaxies of mechwarriors not counting elemental infantry, aerospace and so forth. Even if some of the galaxies were not at full strength or garrison elsewhere the clans could easily managed to deploy over 100 galaxies to invade the comstar protectorate and given that Terra is the prize i wouldn't be surprised if they order garrison galaxies in captured IS space to move toward comstar.
With the seven invading clans including the 3 clans that one rights as reserve forces they limited themselves to somewhere around 56 galaxies.....not exactly a overwhelming force and this at full strength not counted the galaxies that are already garrison or who are not at full strength
Sooooooooooo you are just going to ignore my post & the facts?
Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 31 March 2014 - 09:20 AM.
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