216 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Khobai, on 05 March 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

If what youre saying was true then hunchbacks would never lose their hunches. The hunch is the first thing to go on most hunchbacks. Theres really not a whole lot they can do to protect it from 40 point alphas.

Mediums are super easy to hit in the side torsos, theyre friggin huge, and quite frankly not all that fast. The hunchback is one of the smaller mediums and its hunch is incredibly easy to shoot out.

30+ pinpoint damage just isnt a fun game mechanic at all.

what you are describing is a design flaw of the chasis, not a design flaw of the game as a whole. On a sidenote wich how big the hunch is, do you really feel spreading the damage will help? It wont. The way to resolve the hunch back issue is to make it a weapon pod or more heavily armored in that section.

That said, it depends on the medium and it depends on the pilot. If your showing them the same side repeatedly. Then you are doing it wrong. Also many mediums are very good at protecting there side torso.

wolverine, s-hawk, centurion, griffin.

as are many other weight class.

I disagree. I find it fun. I dont use it all the time since I prefer brawling and have found it heat inefficient. But When I want to use it I find it very enjoyable. When I die to it, I dont get butt hurt.

[Mazzyplz]

yeah and it also affects the dragon and the awesome so it's not just about that chassis.

[Varent]

Mazzyplz, on 05 March 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

yeah and it also affects the dragon and the awesome so it's not just about that chassis.

quoting too poorly designed chasis that people dont use SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF THE HIT BOXES.....doesnt help your cause

Edited by Varent, 05 March 2014 - 05:28 PM.

[Master Maniac]

Khobai, on 05 March 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

Weapons like ACs and PPCs need to be given damage spreading mechanics that distribute their damage across multiple hit locations (i.e. burst fire and splash damage).

No they don't. Learn how to use cover. Don't cry when you maneuver yourself into a position in which you get shot by my pinpoint weapons (which, in turn, require *pinpoint precision*).

This whole argument against skill-based weapons really boils down to "I shot you!" "No you didn't, that wasn't fair! I didn't get a chance!"

When players can press a button and get assured 30 points of damage on your CT, then we have a problem. But those "pinpoint" weapons you people cry about require patience, hand-eye coordination, positioning, and skill. They are also subject to deflection, weapon origin, and to a lesser extent trajectory. The slightest twitch can result in shots missing by inches. Player skill *is* and *should be* a consideration in weapon balancing, because until you people get your way and nuance *everything* into the ground, MWO is *not* a pure numbers MOBA trainwreck.

The minute this game devolves into a game about shooting multi-colored variants of the same laser and triggering "ability modules" for "nova damage" with my minmaxed Atlas tank build while my wife in her Raven provides a neutron shield buff against ballistic and energy damage is the minute I close my wallet once and for all and figure out a way to get Mechwarrior 3 running on Windows 8. Pure and simple.

As it is now, MWO is perhaps the last bastion of actual player-input based gameplay in the F2P scene. Everything else is a numbers "game" that people think they're "playing."

[Mcgral18]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

No they don't. Learn how to use cover. Don't cry when you maneuver yourself into a position in which you get shot by my pinpoint weapons (which, in turn, require *pinpoint precision*).

This whole argument against skill-based weapons really boils down to "I shot you!" "No you didn't, that wasn't fair! I didn't get a chance!"

When players can press a button and get assured 30 points of damage on your CT, then we have a problem. But those "pinpoint" weapons you people cry about require patience, hand-eye coordination, positioning, and skill. They are also subject to deflection, weapon origin, and to a lesser extent trajectory. The slightest twitch can result in shots missing by inches. Player skill *is* and *should be* a consideration in weapon balancing, because until you people get your way and nuance *everything* into the ground, MWO is *not* a pure numbers MOBA trainwreck.

The minute this game devolves into a game about shooting multi-colored variants of the same laser and triggering "ability modules" for "nova damage" with my minmaxed Atlas tank build while my wife in her Raven provides a neutron shield buff against ballistic and energy damage is the minute I close my wallet once and for all and figure out a way to get Mechwarrior 3 running on Windows 8. Pure and simple.

As it is now, MWO is perhaps the last bastion of actual player-input based gameplay in the F2P scene. Everything else is a numbers "game" that people think they're "playing."

He thinks pinpoint convergence requires skill? It requires assigning all weapons to a single group. It doesn't really require much skill to hit a CT either, with anything over 45 tons. (jenner aside, the thing being walking CT)

It's a broken mechanic, no way around that. Since they can't fix the convergence, they have to change the weapons. Either making them not FLD, CoF, enforced chainfire, etc...

Of course, if weapons didn't do 3x+ times their intended damage against 2x armor, we could see if that would help.

Edited by Mcgral18, 05 March 2014 - 07:39 PM.

[DocBach]

khobai needs to learn to play

[Master Maniac]

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

He thinks pinpoint convergence requires skill? It requires assigning all weapons to a single group. It doesn't really require much skill to hit a CT either, with anything over 45 tons. (jenner aside, the thing being walking CT)

It's a broken mechanic, so way around that. Since they can't fix the convergence, they have to change the weapons. Either making them not FLD, CoF, enforced chainfire, etc...

Of course, if weapons didn't do 3x+ times their intended damage against 2x armor, we could see if that would help.

Yeah, I think "pinpoint convergence" takes skill, for the aforementioned reasons.

Stop waving your arms at your invisible crowd and address me directly. It looks less pathetic.

You have to acquire your target, hold your target, and fire, while adjusting for your target's movement and whatever obstacles might be blocking your arms/torso guns. Just in case you were unable to read the above post. So, yes, I "believe" precise weapons require precision.

Go back your LRM apologies. :-D

ROFL at "enforced chainfire." "C'mon, slow it down. Your aim is too goooood. You're not giving me a chance! Where's my win buttoooooon? *sob*"

Edited by Master Maniac, 05 March 2014 - 07:43 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Yeah, I think "pinpoint convergence" takes skill, for the aforementioned reasons.

Stop waving your arms at your invisible crowd and address me directly. It looks less pathetic.

You have to acquire your target, hold your target, and fire, while adjusting for your target's movement and whatever obstacles might be blocking your arms/torso guns. Just in case you were unable to read the above post. So, yes, I "believe" precise weapons require precision.

Go back your LRM apologies. :-D

ROFL at "enforced chainfire." "C'mon, slow it down. Your aim is too goooood. You're not giving me a chance! Where's my win buttoooooon? *sob*"

No, pinpoint convergence makes this CoD in robots, and is simply superior to just about every other type of damage. It isn't cancelled by a 1.5 ton piece of equipment, and you can aim precisely what you want to hit, without the 1 ton targetting computer for every 4 tons of weapons. The fact that all weapons do far too much damage for our armor levels, and that damage is ALL frontloaded on ACs and PPCs.

It creates an imbalance, whether you want to see it or not.

Yes, it's the best way to play, but that's because it hasn't been properly balanced. It requires very little skill.

By the way, your "win button" IS FLD, it's the easiest way to play. No disadvantage, it's good at it's min range, and up to 3 times it's effective range.

Edited by Mcgral18, 05 March 2014 - 07:51 PM.

[Varent]

DocBach, on 05 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

khobai needs to learn to play

Hes just... very angry. Needs a hug.

[ego1607]

Yes, if you position yourself in cover, you won't get your torso blown off by 16 ppc's that would be fired on you the moment you peek out. And that's what was so damn wrong with the game when this meta was at its peek. Every match would be a bunch of people siting in cover waiting for someone to make a mistake of making any move so they can poptart or snipe him out of the match in 2 or three shots. Mechwarrior is not a FPS shooter, there are no respawns, and it's not either fun or in the spirit of the game to have your mech destroyed or crippled to uselesness with two shots. Its just not what mechwarrior is about.

[Master Maniac]

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

No, pinpoint convergence makes this CoD in robots, and is simply superior to just about every other type of damage. It isn't cancelled by a 1.5 ton piece of equipment, and you can aim precisely what you want to hit, without the 1 ton targetting computer for every 4 tons of weapons. The fact that all weapons do far too much damage for our armor levels, and that damage is ALL frontloaded on ACs and PPCs.

It creates an imbalance, whether you want to see it or not.

Yes, it's the best way to play, but that's because it hasn't been properly balanced. It requires very little skill.

By the way, your "win button" IS FLD, it's the easiest way to play. No disadvantage, it's good at it's min range, and up to 3 times it's effective range.

That OMGSUPAHLEETONESHOTTOTALLYUNFAIR kill you're talking about? Well, it doesn't happen. But if it did, do you know why it did?

It's because you let yourself get shot in the face.

Sad, I know. But it happens, and when you stupid, you shouldn't always get to fall back on a crutch to fix it. Because in a real fight, if you're actually maneuvering, and fighting, and contributing to the battle, you're a hard target to hit. That "frontloaded" damage might not hit you at all, and your opponent has to contend with a cooldown while you get your shots in. You can turn, you can twist, you can move, stop, and turn. You can run into and out of cover. Your opponent may simply slip the reticule off your 'Mech, missing you by inches.

When you stand there poking boated lasers or spamming LRMs, you deserve to die. And quickly.

Whine more.

ego1607, on 05 March 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

Yes, if you position yourself in cover, you won't get your torso blown off by 16 ppc's that would be fired on you the moment you peek out. And that's what was so damn wrong with the game when this meta was at its peek. Every match would be a bunch of people siting in cover waiting for someone to make a mistake of making any move so they can poptart or snipe him out of the match in 2 or three shots. Mechwarrior is not a FPS shooter, there are no respawns, and it's not either fun or in the spirit of the game to have your mech destroyed or crippled to uselesness with two shots. Its just not what mechwarrior is about.

You don't even know what Mechwarrior is about, and, yes, Mechwarrior is and always has been a first-person shooter. Do I need to lecture you on what that means? I suppose you're not alone in thinking "harrgh blarrgh Cowwaduddy harrrggh," so I suppose the answer is "yes." That's too bad.

If you can't outmaneuver your target, that's on you. If you can't communicate with your team and coordinate an offensive, that's on you. There should be no protection for you charging across an open field and getting shot down like the idiot you're playing like. Pure and simple. No "pop tart" in the world is going to survive a massed assault by peeking and shooting. Whining about "peeking" players who occasionally manage to hit a moving target for decent damage is as pathetic as it gets.

If you're getting gunned down by high damage high cooldown plinkers, then you suck. Sorry, but that's it.

Edited by Master Maniac, 05 March 2014 - 08:00 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

you're a hard target to hit.

not really. if moving mechs were actually hard targets to hit, no one would ever get hit.

[Master Maniac]

Khobai, on 05 March 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

not really. if moving mechs were actually hard targets to hit, no one would ever get hit.

Excuse me? Are you really trying to say that moving doesn't make a target harder to hit than if they were standing still? Really? I'm sorry, I guess we need a Team Fortress 2 style item to negate 20% of enemy hits, then, don't we? Might as well make this a numbers game - everybody else is doing it. Just throw skill right out the window, and let's all grind for item modules that'll make your Atlas a better tank and give your Raven a better lag shield! IT WORKS FOR EVERYONE ELSE WHY NOT MWO PLEASE UNINSTALL

*sigh*

What a silly, silly counterpoint. Seriously. Moving is underpowered, aiming and skill are OP. That's...really a first.

You really ought to try moving your next match. You know, dodge and weave, twist and turn, make that CT a little harder to hit? Block shots with your arms? Put a couple of those tons of armor between you and your engine? That sort of thing. Because if you're actually doing that, and, yknow, not sucking, those 30 point alphas are going to take a lot more effort to bring you down.

Most of the idiots I bring down with two or so gauss alphas sit and stare at me while I calmly line my crosshairs up with their cockpit/CT. These people suck, and the problem is that it is evident that they don't know why they're losing. They expect some nerf or intervention to cure their suck.

This, people, is the problem. A little bit of active playing, torso twisting, and actual MOVEMENT increases your life expectancy against my double gauss about threefold. Try it.

Edited by Master Maniac, 05 March 2014 - 08:10 PM.

[Varent]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

Excuse me? Are you really trying to say that moving doesn't make a target harder to hit than if they were standing still? Really? I'm sorry, I guess we need a Team Fortress 2 style item to negate 20% of enemy hits, then, don't we? Might as well make this a numbers game - everybody else is doing it. Just throw skill right out the window, and let's all grind for item modules that'll make your Atlas a better tank and give your Raven a better lag shield! IT WORKS FOR EVERYONE ELSE WHY NOT MWO PLEASE UNINSTALL

don't feed the trolls. Its not worth it. Khobai is just very angry and needs lots of hugs.

[Mcgral18]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

Whine more.

I intend to, because some people don't want to give up their easy button.

Don't believe me? Take some MGs and SRMs and a laser or two, tell me how effective that is. Then take something with ballistics or other frontloaded damage, then report how well you did.

LRMs are worthless when they can be completely cancelled by a 1,5 ton piece of equipment, and even if they didn't they can be rather pathetic when used in small numbers, and even mediocre when boated.

Personally, I prefer mid-sized dakka builds, and they are thankfully not horrible, unlike the SRMs with their hit detection. It's a shame, since I enjoyed SRMs.

[Master Maniac]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

don't feed the trolls. Its not worth it. Khobai is just very angry and needs lots of hugs.

Well, the issue is that these people are always mad, they are always raging, they are always whining and yammering in these forums as the incredibly vocal minority. The rest of us are busy enjoying the game, too busy most of the time to sit here and explain what they're doing wrong. Sometimes it just needs to be said.

"the only mechs that can actually evade damage are lights and the cicada."

Torso twist, surrat. You use it, quiaff? Also, my 89kph Hunchback disagrees out of principle.

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

I intend to, because some people don't want to give up their easy button.

Don't believe me? Take some MGs and SRMs and a laser or two, tell me how effective that is. Then take something with ballistics or other frontloaded damage, then report how well you did.

LRMs are worthless when they can be completely cancelled by a 1,5 ton piece of equipment, and even if they didn't they can be rather pathetic when used in small numbers, and even mediocre when boated.

Personally, I prefer mid-sized dakka builds, and they are thankfully not horrible, unlike the SRMs with their hit detection. It's a shame, since I enjoyed SRMs.

The whine is strong in this one.

I run practically every kind of build that can be built, so I am quite aware. This is not gold stars for everyone. If you choose to go with low-damage track weapons, then you had better be good at moving and tracking because if you aren't then you'd better not expect to get the same scores as those who are, or those who use more powerful weapons. DEAL WITH IT.

You know what I won the Blackjack tourney with? Lasers. All lasers, and nothing else. 800 damage per match were my top 10s, and more than 5 kills per match at least on average. It's because I push myself to not suck, get in there, move, and fight. I killed lights, mediums, heavies, and assaults alike. It's not hard if you *try* to get good, rather than whine about how the game should be made easier for your preferred weapons.

"Easy button." SMH

About SRMs: I agree that they suck because their hit detection is broken. Hopefully they will fix it. SRMs shouldn't suck.

About MGs: They are excellent weapons as they are now. They actually do the damage they should, and they are fine where they are.

About LRMs: They are lazy win button weapons for lazy players, as the majority of players use them. I couldn't care less that ECM makes LRM boats actually pick up and friggin' MOVE a few steps to manually acquire some targets. No tears here.

Edited by Master Maniac, 05 March 2014 - 08:23 PM.

[Darth Futuza]

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

He thinks pinpoint convergence requires skill? It requires assigning all weapons to a single group. It doesn't really require much skill to hit a CT either, with anything over 45 tons. (jenner aside, the thing being walking CT)

You must've never been subjected to 9-10fps and forced to aim with these weapons. That requires skill.

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

Torso twist, surrat. You use it, quiaff? Also, my 89kph Hunchback disagrees out of principle.

So does mine.

Edited by Darth Futuza, 05 March 2014 - 08:17 PM.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

I intend to, because some people don't want to give up their easy button.

Don't believe me? Take some MGs and SRMs and a laser or two, tell me how effective that is. Then take something with ballistics or other frontloaded damage, then report how well you did.

LRMs are worthless when they can be completely cancelled by a 1,5 ton piece of equipment, and even if they didn't they can be rather pathetic when used in small numbers, and even mediocre when boated.

Personally, I prefer mid-sized dakka builds, and they are thankfully not horrible, unlike the SRMs with their hit detection. It's a shame, since I enjoyed SRMs.

I run with srm and laser all the time TYVM. I do quite well with them. I actually prefer SRM in brawling situations, even with the occasional misses I do better with them in brawling. That's not to say that ppc and ac aren't better at ranges, But in brawling SRM is very very good.

[Khobai]

Quote

Torso twist, surrat.

Torso twisting doesnt stop you from getting hit. It just means I aim for your leg instead of your torso.

Also I dont know a single person who has trouble hitting a 90kph hunchback.

[Mcgral18]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

Well, the issue is that these people are always mad, they are always raging, they are always whining and yammering in these forums as the incredibly vocal minority. The rest of us are busy enjoying the game, too busy most of the time to sit here and explain what they're doing wrong. Sometimes it just needs to be said.

"the only mechs that can actually evade damage are lights and the cicada."

Torso twist, surrat. You use it, quiaff? Also, my 89kph Hunchback disagrees out of principle.

The issue there, is that torso twisting against FLD does nothing to spread damage. If the opponent has any skill, they will wait until you face them to hit your CT dead center. Torso twist just delayed the inevitable, which lasers have a full 1 second burn time. And if the FLD mech fires, then twists, that laser damage will be spread over multiple components, while the laser user took full damage to CT.

Imbalance.

Darth Futuza, on 05 March 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

You must've never been subjected to 9-10fps and forced to aim with these weapons. That requires skill.

Not since CB, in which lasers were my go to choice...those were rather painful days. The same system now get 25 FPS on average, which is nice.