216 replies to this topic

[Master Maniac]

Khobai, on 05 March 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

Torso twisting doesnt stop you from getting hit. It just means I aim for your leg instead of your torso.

Also I dont know a single person who has trouble hitting a 90kph hunchback.

Freaking facedesk, dude. Facedesk.

Torso twisting stops your CT from getting hit. It keeps you alive, because most people gun for the torso in the midst of a brawl as the legs are generally heavily armored and hard to hit because...you know...they tend to move a lot. You are fishing for straws, here.

------The issue there, is that torso twisting against FLD does nothing to spread damage. If the opponent has any skill, they will wait until you face them to hit your CT dead center. Torso twist just delayed the inevitable, which lasers have a full 1 second burn time. And if the FLD mech fires, then twists, that laser damage will be spread over multiple components, while the laser user took full damage to CT.

Imbalance.------

No, dude, just no. The situation you are describing shows a lack of skill on your part. Learn to maneuver, learn to snap shoot, learn to clinch and reposition. When you have done these things, come back and see if your horizons have broadened. Because as it stands now, you sound very butthurt about your obvious lack of brawling skill, and are venting.

Source: Experience. I wade into brawls all the time, and am frequently the focus of the other team's fire. I know how to fire and maneuver. Do you?

If you present a target to your opponent, you deserve to get hit if they are lucky or skilled enough to hit you. This is by design. We do not need an artificial mechanic to force their aim to suck in order to give idiot pilots a better chance in a brawl. If you put yourself in their crosshairs, you get shot. That simple. If you are telling me that the best you can do is turn and LOOK at the guy who's shooting you, then that's pretty sad.

Edited by Master Maniac, 05 March 2014 - 08:33 PM.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

The issue there, is that torso twisting against FLD does nothing to spread damage. If the opponent has any skill, they will wait until you face them to hit your CT dead center. Torso twist just delayed the inevitable, which lasers have a full 1 second burn time. And if the FLD mech fires, then twists, that laser damage will be spread over multiple components, while the laser user took full damage to CT.

Imbalance.



Not since CB, in which lasers were my go to choice...those were rather painful days. The same system now get 25 FPS on average, which is nice.

that's kinda an untrue statement. What your describing is someone already cored, In wich case you haven't been doing your job in the first place. And honestly what your also describing is a super patient player that just holds his shots when in the middle of a battle that's not going to happen all the time and burst will do nothing at all for that scenario. In the real gaming situations torso twisting WILL spread damage. Its a fact. High end players known this.

[Khobai]

Quote

Torso twisting stops your CT from getting hit.

Which is why I would just destroy your leg. A medium without a leg is as good as dead. You cant retreat back into cover at that point and you dont have the armor of a heavy or assault. Its a death sentence.

You act like torso twisting is gonna magically save you. Its not. I will just tear your other limbs off instead.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 05 March 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

Which is why I would just destroy your leg. A medium without a leg is as good as dead. You cant retreat back into cover at that point and you dont have the armor of a heavy or assault. Its a death sentence.

You act like torso twisting is gonna magically save you. Its not. I will just tear your other limbs off instead.

Movement plus direction change means you will spread the damage and miss quite abit. Keep trying though. Your only digging yourself deeper. By the way this is leading to a very funny statement, so do continue.

[Master Maniac]

Khobai, on 05 March 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

Which is why I would just destroy your leg. A medium without a leg is as good as dead. You cant retreat back into cover at that point and you dont have the armor of a heavy or assault. Its a death sentence.

You act like torso twisting is gonna magically save you. Its not. I will just tear your other limbs off instead.

No you won't, because you're going to be too busy sweeping your impotent lasers over my leg for like 2 damage each shot while I smack you in the face like you deserve.

Trust me on that.

As it was said, good players know that torso twisting is the best way to absorb damage. Are you going to be a good player, or a whinewarrior?

And I never said anything about twisting "magically" saving anyone. Not once. What "saves" you is teamwork and not screwing up your attack so that you're getting mauled in the first place. There is no magic save from stupid - which is precisely what I'm advocating against here.

Edited by Master Maniac, 05 March 2014 - 08:38 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Movement plus direction change means you will spread the damage and miss quite abit.

pinpoint weapons dont spread damage though. and you only miss "quite a bit" if your aim is bad. my hit % with PPCs is around 50%. Its 60% with AC5s and AC/20s. I generally dont miss with those weapons unless im sniping at extreme range.

Quote

No you won't, because you're going to be too busy sweeping your impotent lasers over my leg for like 2 damage each shot while I smack you in the face like you deserve.

I dont use lasers because theyre impotent. Finally we agree on something.

I use pinpoint weapons like PPCs and ACs. Because they do their damage all at once. And theyre way more effective than weapons like SRMs, Lasers, etc... which are weaksauce in the current meta. Not gonna be hitting you for less than 20 damage ever.

Now youre hopefully starting to understand some of the reasons why pinpoint damage needs to be nerfed.

Edited by Khobai, 05 March 2014 - 08:49 PM.

[Master Maniac]

Khobai, on 05 March 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

pinpoint weapons dont spread damage though.



I dont use lasers because they are impotent. Finally we agree on something.

The lasers are "impotent" because your aim sucks as you are aiming at my constantly moving legs, surrat. Also, pinpoint weapons "spread" damage when YOU spread the damage around by torso twisting.

This is most amusing. Please, continue.

EDIT in response to your edit:

Yeah, direct fire weapons do their damage all at once. That means they're doing what they should be doing. Great. Of course, they do this with increased heat and cooldown rates, but they're working as intended. That's good. So while you're hitting my legs, I'm coring you out so you can come here and post about how unfair it is that I shot out your CT while you were hitting my legs.

I think we've worked this one out.

Also: "meta meta meta meta meta meta"

If only I could work out how to post screenshots, because I've got dozens of scoresheet snaps that show 500-900 damage in 'Mechs armed with nothing but lasers.

Such weaksauce meta. Goodness. Does that mean loadout =/= ability? GASP!

Edited by Master Maniac, 05 March 2014 - 08:49 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

The lasers are "impotent" because your aim sucks as you are aiming at my constantly moving legs, surrat. Also, pinpoint weapons "spread" damage when YOU spread the damage around by torso twisting.

This is most amusing. Please, continue.

EDIT in response to your edit:

Yeah, direct fire weapons do their damage all at once. That means they're doing what they should be doing. Great. Of course, they do this with increased heat and cooldown rates, but they're working as intended. That's good. So while you're hitting my legs, I'm coring you out so you can come here and post about how unfair it is that I shot out your CT while you were hitting my legs.

I think we've worked this one out.

It only "spreads" if you're impatient. FLD applies all damage where it hits, there is no mitigating that.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 05 March 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

pinpoint weapons dont spread damage though. and you only miss "quite a bit" if your aim is bad. my hit % with PPCs is around 50%. Its 60% with AC5s and AC/20s. I generally dont miss with those weapons unless im sniping at extreme range.



I dont use lasers because theyre impotent. Finally we agree on something.

I use pinpoint weapons like PPCs and ACs. Because they do their damage all at once. And theyre way more effective than weapons like SRMs, Lasers, etc... which are weaksauce in the current meta. Not gonna be hitting you for less than 20 damage ever.

Now were starting to understand some of the reasons why pinpoint damage needs to be nerfed.

ah so this is an aim question? your very confident that you can continuously hit one point on a moving target no matter what even while they are twisting about?

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

It only "spreads" if you're impatient. FLD applies all damage where it hits, there is no mitigating that.

So then, if it only comes down to aim. Why don't you simply use lasers and just perfectly hold on target where you want them?

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

ah so this is an aim question? your very confident that you can continuously hit one point on a moving target no matter what even while they are twisting about?



So then, if it only comes down to aim. Why don't you simply use lasers and just perfectly hold on target where you want them?

No, if the fire the laser into the CT, then they twist it spreads damage. If you fire an AC into their CT, then they twist, they take full damage to the CT. Aim can't help if the target is now hidden behind other hitboxes. Whether someone wastes their ammo on a target they don't intend to core is their own decision, but it does protect your CT from further damage, until you want to shoot them again.

[Master Maniac]

We've gotten to the core of the issue. Their problem is that people can aim better than they can. The rest of their "argument" has broken down completely.

MWO is a great game because player skill is a factor, much to the malign of MOBA players everywhere. Player skill IS and SHOULD BE a factor when considering the use and development of each and every weapon in the game. Pinpoint weapons require pinpoint aim, a fact that you people constantly wish to sidestep in favor of your nonexistent arguments.

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

No, if the fire the laser into the CT, then they twist it spreads damage. If you fire an AC into their CT, then they twist, they take full damage to the CT. Aim can't help if the target is now hidden behind other hitboxes. Whether someone wastes their ammo on a target they don't intend to core is their own decision, but it does protect your CT from further damage, until you want to shoot them again.

You are aware by now that your argument has boiled down to "I want an easy way out of the horrible positions I keep putting myself into?" You're like people who complain about shotguns in military shooter games, whining about situational weapons blowing their faces off at point blank range while ignoring the fact that they chose to brawl with a shotgunner. This crap is why we get stuff in F2P games like "SPECIAL PREMIUM ARMOR INSERTS ONLY 50 GOLD COINS - PROTECT AGAINST ONE LETHAL SHOTGUN BLAST RAH RAH RAH"

Varent was right: you need a hug. This isn't worth anyone's time.

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

So then, if it only comes down to aim. Why don't you simply use lasers and just perfectly hold on target where you want them?

Pwned. Discussion over.

Edited by Master Maniac, 05 March 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

ah so this is an aim question? your very confident that you can continuously hit one point on a moving target no matter what even while they are twisting about?

Yes. Im confident I can do meaningful damage to a target regardless of whether its moving or torso twisting. Any hit to the torso is meaningful damage. Destroying a leg on a light or medium is also meaningful damage. Basically hitting them anywhere other than the arm is going to hurt them. Shooting arms is generally a waste of time for most mechs (its okay for some mechs like the A1).

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

No, if the fire the laser into the CT, then they twist it spreads damage. If you fire an AC into their CT, then they twist, they take full damage to the CT. Aim can't help if the target is now hidden behind other hitboxes. Whether someone wastes their ammo on a target they don't intend to core is their own decision, but it does protect your CT from further damage, until you want to shoot them again.

I honestly want to see you aim and hit consistently where your aiming at on a moving target while twisting. You don't even see the highest end players doing that consistently. You must be pretty pro good sir. I am impressed. Will you teach me your skills?

[Rhent]

No Remorse, on 04 March 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

WAY back in closed beta there was a mech, the loathed and feared master of battlefield, the K2 guass kitty. This is where our story begins.

There were so many people who whined and complained that people could actually aim and hit their target with these guns that PGI eventually relented and nerfed the weapon. This is when PGI took that fateful step into submitting to every whim of their player base if it meant another dollar. This, of course, led to many more dollars lost in the long run.

As an aside, I played A LOT in closed beta. Do you know what my favourite mech to attack was? The K2, I would search them out and kill them before they had a chance to wreak havoc. I did it with another kitty, my "Whoosh" cat, two LRM 15s and four streaks, purpose built to kill K2's. If the K2 was lucky he would have my pods off before I got to him, but usually my LRMS would mess his aim up so badly he couldn't hit me until I was on top of him. So the K2 was far from the invincible machine everyone claims, you just had to use... what's the word, oh, yeah, TACTICS!

So with their new powers, the "Whiners Club" joined forces and began to complain about EVERY weapon in the game which killed them in game at least twice. PGI began its blitz to balance this game, not matter what the cost. Patch after patch was tweak this, re-tweak that, oops that was overboard, reign that in, now this is too powerful, wait, no it wasn't, it wasn't powerful enough. "Statistics, bah, we don't need statistics to balance things. This is a game! Why would we use complex statistical models when we can just ask our cadre of whiners, oh, I mean our player base?"

Then they turned their attention to the chassis, oh boy, hit box hell began. Do I need to talk about all the posts on hit boxes? Hit box here, hit there, hit boxes are everywhere. Now you have problem with hit registration, most likely to the amount of tampering with the hit boxes of every mech!

Breathe... okay I'm good, back to the point.

The results of all this mess is PGI has allocated so much time and resources on "balancing" these issues that they have failed to produce a single new weapon for the IS, and have no clue as to how to balance Clan tech. New chassis come out which drastically over power current mechs. On top of that, the forums are flooded with the over righteous and highly indignant whiners club who feel justified in complaining over everything! That's my job damn it!

If PGI could have stayed focus on developing the game like adding features instead of over balancing the hell out of it, we might have actually had a great game right now. But we got what we got, take it or leave it, I suggest the latter. This as much PGI's fault as it is the "Whiners Club" of course, this also led the the rise of the dreaded "PGI Defenders"

In closed Beta, the nerf to the Gauss cannon was to make the gauss cannon explode like it was supposed to explode. As to your build in closed Beta to kill Gauss Cats, you were sporting 4 streaks that in closed Beta were CT seeking death pods.

You are complaining about balance and you are using one example, the K2 that got a fix to put it inline with Battletech lore (it did not have exploding ammo in closed beta) and then you talk about how you liked using an OP build that needed to be nerfed to kill the K2.

Your validity to discuss overbalancing from reading your examples is poor to none.

[Varent]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

We've gotten to the core of the issue. Their problem is that people can aim better than they can. The rest of their "argument" has broken down completely.

MWO is a great game because player skill is a factor, much to the malign of MOBA players everywhere. Player skill IS and SHOULD BE a factor when considering the use and development of each and every weapon in the game. Pinpoint weapons require pinpoint aim, a fact that you people constantly wish to sidestep in favor of your nonexistent arguments.



You are aware by now that your argument has boiled down to "I want an easy way out of the horrible positions I keep putting myself into?" You're like people who complain about shotguns in military shooter games, whining about situational weapons blowing their faces off at point blank range while ignoring the fact that they chose to brawl with a shotgunner. This crap is why we get stuff in F2P games like "SPECIAL PREMIUM ARMOR INSERTS ONLY 50 GOLD COINS - PROTECT AGAINST ONE LETHAL SHOTGUN BLAST RAH RAH RAH"

Varent was right: you need a hug. This isn't worth anyone's time.

yup. funny enough this is the back end of the argument as well. That lasers are too hard to hold on target due to movement and aim issues. But apparently aim issues and always getting a weapon just where you want it aren't a problem on anything else. I call shenanigans. Specially since even the highest end players will ACTIVELY promote torso twisting to spread damage against AC AND PPC. wich people are claiming you cant spread damage against.

Khobai, on 05 March 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Yes. Im confident I can do meaningful damage to a target regardless of whether its moving or torso twisting. Any hit to the torso is meaningful damage. Destroying a leg on a light or medium is also meaningful damage. Basically hitting them anywhere other than the arm is going to hurt them. Shooting arms is generally a waste of time for most mechs (its okay for some mechs like the A1).

oh you....

[Master Maniac]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

yup. funny enough this is the back end of the argument as well. That lasers are too hard to hold on target due to movement and aim issues. But apparently aim issues and always getting a weapon just where you want it aren't a problem on anything else. I call shenanigans. Specially since even the highest end players will ACTIVELY promote torso twisting to spread damage against AC AND PPC. wich people are claiming you cant spread damage against.

*claps*

Well, that's pretty much it. G'day, gentlemen. That pretty much wraps things up here.

[Mcgral18]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

We've gotten to the core of the issue. Their problem is that people can aim better than they can. The rest of their "argument" has broken down completely.

MWO is a great game because player skill is a factor, much to the malign of MOBA players everywhere. Player skill IS and SHOULD BE a factor when considering the use and development of each and every weapon in the game. Pinpoint weapons require pinpoint aim, a fact that you people constantly wish to sidestep in favor of your nonexistent arguments.



You are aware by now that your argument has boiled down to "I want an easy way out of the horrible positions I keep putting myself into?" You're like people who complain about shotguns in military shooter games, whining about situational weapons blowing their faces off at point blank range while ignoring the fact that they chose to brawl with a shotgunner. This crap is why we get stuff in F2P games like "SPECIAL PREMIUM ARMOR INSERTS ONLY 50 GOLD COINS - PROTECT AGAINST ONE LETHAL SHOTGUN BLAST RAH RAH RAH"

Varent was right: you need a hug. This isn't worth anyone's time.




Pwned. Discussion over.

No, your arguments are pathetic. You think that one type of damage be superior to another, without any real disadvantage?

You think it's skill that allows you to apply that damage? Not the instant convergence on weapons, which exploit an armor system?

No, I'm not the one with a pathetic argument. But it makes no difference. PGI will never be able to balance this, we get ghost heat.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

No, your arguments are pathetic. You think that one type of damage be superior to another, without any real disadvantage?

You think it's skill that allows you to apply that damage? Not the instant convergence on weapons, which exploit an armor system?

No, I'm not the one with a pathetic argument. But it makes no difference. PGI will never be able to balance this, we get ghost heat.

He took it a little overboard. But your argument is fairly weak mcgral. AC and ppc are strong at ranges. When a lot of weapons have spread and when heat issues don't matter as much. At closer ranges these weapons aren't as strong as you think they are. That said they will still, ALWAYS spread damage. As long as you are playing against an opponent that knows how to torso twist. Its a fact. No one id denying ac and ppc are strong at range. They are. They also however just took a significant kick to the nuts with the recent nerf. Wich was a good thing. Its a pity they haven't fully fixed srm yet or you would probly be seeing a lot different meta out there. That said ive already been seeing a lot more brawls going on using all types of different weaponary and even srm, though not to the degree it would be if they were fixed.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

The lasers are "impotent" because your aim sucks as you are aiming at my constantly moving legs, surrat. Also, pinpoint weapons "spread" damage when YOU spread the damage around by torso twisting.

This is most amusing. Please, continue.

Okay, first off, hitting legs are not in any way difficult. You aim for the thighs, because they don't move much at all. It's simple

Secondly, torso twisting does ****-all to mitigate PPC and AC5 damage. All the patient player has to do is wait until you twist back to return fire, or just shoot at your pelvis and legs. Surat.

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

Yeah, direct fire weapons do their damage all at once. That means they're doing what they should be doing. Great. Of course, they do this with increased heat and cooldown rates, but they're working as intended.

AC2s have better heat and cooldown rates than lasers
AC5s have better heat and cooldown rates than lasers
Ultra AC5s have better heat and cooldown rates than lasers
AC10s have better heat and cooldown rates than lasers (minus the smalls and small pulses)
AC20s have better damage/heat ratios than lasers, and better cooldown than the larges
Gauss Rifles have practically no heat, but suffer from higher cooldown
PPCs and ERPPCs I'll give you.

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

If only I could work out how to post screenshots, because I've got dozens of scoresheet snaps that show 500-900 damage in 'Mechs armed with nothing but lasers.

Such weaksauce meta. Goodness. Does that mean loadout =/= ability? GASP!

Damage numbers don't reflect the effectiveness of damage you're doing. You can deal 48 damage destroying a Centurion's shield arm. You can do 614 damage stripping every point of Armor on an Atlas. Are you actually accomplishing anything with that damage though? No, you are not. Also, I've seen screenshots of people having high scores in Locusts. Does that mean Locusts are good? No! Locusts are terrible!

Pinpoint front-loaded weapons like autocannons and PPCs are superior because any damage they do is guaranteed to deal all of its damage to just one component, and thus increase the chances of that component being destroyed. Twisting will not spread damage from two group-fired PPCs between multiple components. The best twisting can do is present a less useful component (shield arms) to the enemy to prevent useful components from taking damage, but all the enemy has to do is shoot your legs or wait until you present your useful components again to return fire.

I suppose they might also spread damage when the enemy is firing multiple weapon types with different projectile travel speeds, but the individual weapons are still going to do full damage to whatever it is they hit.



Also, try to avoid attacking another player's skill when making your arguments. Winning a category on the first PGI tournament definitely requires an above-average level of skill. Also an entire weekend to blow on playing a video game.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 05 March 2014 - 09:24 PM.

[Master Maniac]

Mcgral18, on 05 March 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

No, your arguments are pathetic. You think that one type of damage be superior to another, without any real disadvantage?

You think it's skill that allows you to apply that damage? Not the instant convergence on weapons, which exploit an armor system?

No, I'm not the one with a pathetic argument. But it makes no difference. PGI will never be able to balance this, we get ghost heat.

You don't even know what you're blathering about. It's pretty sad to watch.

"You think that one type of damage be superior to another, without any real disadvantage?" - Blathering.

"Not the instant convergence on weapons" - Bee Ess. There is no "instant convergence." Convergence always takes at least a split second in the best of situations with the fastest of engines, and even then it is imperfect because projectiles are actually launched from a weapon origin, which can be blocked/thrown off by terrain or moving objects.

" which exploit an armor system?" - Pure garbage. Weapons do damage, measured in points. Puh-leeze.

"No, I'm not the one with a pathetic argument" - Yes you are.

"PGI will never be able to balance this, we get ghost heat." - And I could still wreck your PPC/AC/whatever mech with my med-laser Blackjack. Guaranteed.