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So Basicly, The Wolf Were The "smart Guy's"?


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#281 Vincent V. Kerensky

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 08:42 AM

Wow... Ok, lot of stuff to read... Not gonna read through it all but I got the jist of the discussion, how it started and where it has headed.

I agree with both sides to some degree, but mostly with what the Corbett/Tesuine side has written. True, Tesuine has not written in that many lore sources as Corbett, but what he has said has checked out mostly with what Corbett has said.

When it comes down to Ulric being a traitor to the Clan way, I cannot say I agree with that assessment.

I will jump a bit in time here but bare with me. I want to adress two things in my post. First is the use of the Dragoons as "spies" and that it was unworthy of Clan Wolf to do so. Second is about Ulric being a traitor to the Clans.

This is what I have found and I merely wish to put my two c-bills out there.

First off, the Dragoon Compromise: (source: http://www.sarna.net...goon_Compromise )

Quote

The Dragoon Compromise was a response proposed by Clan Wolf in reaction to the growing agitation by certain elements of Clan society to invade the Inner Sphere....


Quote

....In 3000, the debate between the Wardens and Crusaders emerged onto the next level. Clan Ghost Bear Khan Nadia Winson, formerly of Clan Wolf, took the debate to the Grand Council, demanding a vote of approval to begin preparations to invade the Inner Sphere in order to fulfill the Crusader interpretation of the words of the Great Kerenskys.

Clan Wolf Khan Kerlin Ward argued that the Clans were about to take a leap into an unknown situation with little reliable intelligence at the urging of the radical Crusader Clans Smoke Jaguar and Jade Falcon....


Quote

....This plan was approved by the Grand Council, with Clan Wolf placed in charge of gathering the unit, despite complaints from several Crusader Clan Khans, especially Yvonne Hazen of the Jade Falcons....


I agree with that several Crusader Khans were against this plan, but in the end the plan was approved by the Grand Council. It does not say why they disagree with it on Sarna but the way the sentence is written, I assume it has to do with Clan Wolf being in charge of setting up the unit. (Please, if you have better sources, do post!)

Since the plan was approved and backed by the Grand Council, it means that all Clans would be bound to this. This "deception" to the Inner Sphere if you will was therefore legal in the views of Clan society.

Quote

Though the Dragoons would perform their primary task at an outstanding level of efficient diligence, the focus of their mission was altered significantly during their resupply run in 3019, after the death of Joshua Wolf during the Marik Civil War. Khan Ward realized that an invasion was highly likely, though still distant time-wise. In a maverick move against the increasingly antagonistic Crusaders, he would order the Wolf's Dragoons to secretly begin preparing the armies of the Great Houses for the coming invasion, swearing them to follow the orders of no other Khan except for him....


Deceptive? Perhaps Unworthy of a Clan Khan? I am not so sure. A Khan is not only the highest military authority within a Clan, he/she is also the political leader. The Khan is responsible for setting the policy of the Clan. The unit was honoring the mission they were set out to complete and followed the orders of their Khan. They were his units and his to do with as he pleased per say, as long as they conducted their mission.

Now, over to Ulric Kerensky when he became ilKhan: (source: http://www.sarna.net.../Ulric_Kerensky )

It has already been mentioned time and again that Ulric was a traitor to the Clans and that he was not. Indeed, he was a Warden and he tried to stop the Invasion by Trial of Refusal (which is his right). He lost, barely, even though odds were 4-1 against Clan Wolf. Is that treason? I do not believe so. As Khan, Ulric had the right to disagree with the decision made by the Grand Council. When it came down to it, he lost the Trial.

As any honorable Warrior would do, he then backed off. The issue had been dealt with and the Invasion would proceed. What happened next was out of his hands when the Grand Council punished Clan Wolf and put them in with the Invading Clans. Had the Grand Council -not- gone ahead with this, he would not have been able to influence the invasion in the same manner.

He found new ways to push his politics during the Invasion, following the directive given by the Grand Council to subdue the Inner Sphere. He relied on intel given by the Dragoons and later on as he became ilKhan, he even tried to help the other invading Clans.

Quote

In October of 3051, the Khans and their Bloodnamed warriors returned to the Inner Sphere to resume the invasion. IlKhan Ulric encouraged other Clans to mind their logistics and to implement their own LAP programs, but outside of Clan Wolf his efforts mostly fell on deaf ears....


So, he tried to share in the success he had earlier in the invasion but people refused to listen to him.

Quote

....The loss of Luthien was predicted to shatter House Kurita, leading to an easier path to Terra. The ilKhan, as had become the usual practice, requested intelligence on Luthien's defenses through Precentor Martial Focht, which was provided. Ulric appointed Smoke Jaguar Khan Lincoln Osis to command the overall operation, though not without complaint from the Nova Cats....


I doubt he would not share the information with the leader of the operation. That would not be very tactful nor strategic on his part.

Quote

....The Combine was tipped-off to the attack by a ComStar spy, however, and with the aid of Wolf's Dragoons and the Kell hounds, the Battle of Luthien in early January 3052 proved to be a critical victory for the Inner Sphere, defeating the five Clan front-line galaxies despite taking heavy losses....


I do not believe the ilKhan was at fault in this matter either. He did what he could to ensure the victory of the Jaguars and Nova Cats.

Quote

....The ilKhan attempted to advise the other Clans not to underestimate the Com Guards, and further to prepare for a lengthy campaign. As usual, most ignored his counsel, with only the Ghost Bears heeding his words, equipping most of their 'Mechs primarily with energy weapons as the Wolves did....


Tukayyid. I am starting to see a pattern here.

Almost done now, I promise.

Quote

....IlKhan Ulric was forced to order the Smoke Jaguars to retreat to preserve their remaining forces when both of their Khans were taken out of the fighting, only for elements of Jaguars' Alpha Galaxy, particularly the 6th Jaguar Dragoons, ignore these orders, resulting in further unnecessary losses....


I believe that all Clans agree that waste is not a good thing.

Last one here which shows how Clan society works and how raw Clan politics can be. This is during a meeting within Clan Wolf.

Quote

....To the shock of all assembled, Carns charged Ulric with Genocide, claiming that by honoring the Treaty of Tukayyid, Ulric was engaging in an attempt to destroy Clan Wolf's genetic legacy by preventing three generations of Wolf warriors (the number reckoned among the Clans in 15 years) from seeing serious combat, aside from Trials, training exercises or raiding against other Clans....


Dishonor a Treaty won by following Clan laws and gain honor in combat or honor the treaty.

Ulric was not a traitor. He was a brilliant tactician, strategist and politician. He played the game and might have won had Khan Chistu followed Zellbrigen. We will never know though.

That was my three c-bills actually. If people have a better source than Sarna for these things, please do post them or send me a message. I am interested to learn more. All in all though, after having read through (and picked out) the bits and pieces here that I wanted to show, I still agree with the Corbett/Tesuine side.

EDIT 1: Got rid of some hotlinks. They were disturbing.
EDIT 2: Put in quotes. Thanks Shar Wolf.

Edited by Vincent V Kerensky, 16 March 2014 - 09:16 AM.


#282 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:01 AM

View PostVincent V Kerensky, on 16 March 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

...

Add [ quote] and [ /quote] (minus the space between [q and [/ obviously) around the parts you are quoting and it makes it a bit easier to read. :D

Edited by Shar Wolf, 16 March 2014 - 09:02 AM.


#283 Vincent V. Kerensky

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:13 AM

View PostShar Wolf, on 16 March 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Add [ quote] and [ /quote] (minus the space between [q and [/ obviously) around the parts you are quoting and it makes it a bit easier to read. :ph34r:


Ah, thank you. Implemented it. :D

#284 Gyrok

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:20 AM

View PostVincent V Kerensky, on 16 March 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

Wow... Ok, lot of stuff to read... Not gonna read through it all but I got the jist of the discussion, how it started and where it has headed.

I agree with both sides to some degree, but mostly with what the Corbett/Tesuine side has written. True, Tesuine has not written in that many lore sources as Corbett, but what he has said has checked out mostly with what Corbett has said.

When it comes down to Ulric being a traitor to the Clan way, I cannot say I agree with that assessment.

I will jump a bit in time here but bare with me. I want to adress two things in my post. First is the use of the Dragoons as "spies" and that it was unworthy of Clan Wolf to do so. Second is about Ulric being a traitor to the Clans.

This is what I have found and I merely wish to put my two c-bills out there.

First off, the Dragoon Compromise: (source: http://www.sarna.net...goon_Compromise )

[/i][/i]

[/i]

[/i]

I agree with that several Crusader Khans were against this plan, but in the end the plan was approved by the Grand Council. It does not say why they disagree with it on Sarna but the way the sentence is written, I assume it has to do with Clan Wolf being in charge of setting up the unit. (Please, if you have better sources, do post!)

Since the plan was approved and backed by the Grand Council, it means that all Clans would be bound to this. This "deception" to the Inner Sphere if you will was therefore legal in the views of Clan society.

[/i]

Deceptive? Perhaps Unworthy of a Clan Khan? I am not so sure. A Khan is not only the highest military authority within a Clan, he/she is also the political leader. The Khan is responsible for setting the policy of the Clan. The unit was honoring the mission they were set out to complete and followed the orders of their Khan. They were his units and his to do with as he pleased per say, as long as they conducted their mission.

Now, over to Ulric Kerensky when he became ilKhan: (source: http://www.sarna.net.../Ulric_Kerensky )

It has already been mentioned time and again that Ulric was a traitor to the Clans and that he was not. Indeed, he was a Warden and he tried to stop the Invasion by Trial of Refusal (which is his right). He lost, barely, even though odds were 4-1 against Clan Wolf. Is that treason? I do not believe so. As Khan, Ulric had the right to disagree with the decision made by the Grand Council. When it came down to it, he lost the Trial.

As any honorable Warrior would do, he then backed off. The issue had been dealt with and the Invasion would proceed. What happened next was out of his hands when the Grand Council punished Clan Wolf and put them in with the Invading Clans. Had the Grand Council -not- gone ahead with this, he would not have been able to influence the invasion in the same manner.

He found new ways to push his politics during the Invasion, following the directive given by the Grand Council to subdue the Inner Sphere. He relied on intel given by the Dragoons and later on as he became ilKhan, he even tried to help the other invading Clans.

[/i]

So, he tried to share in the success he had earlier in the invasion but people refused to listen to him.

[/i]

I doubt he would not share the information with the leader of the operation. That would not be very tactful nor strategic on his part.

[/i]

I do not believe the ilKhan was at fault in this matter either. He did what he could to ensure the victory of the Jaguars and Nova Cats.

[/i]

Tukayyid. I am starting to see a pattern here.

Almost done now, I promise.

[/i]

I believe that all Clans agree that waste is not a good thing.

Last one here which shows how Clan society works and how raw Clan politics can be. This is during a meeting within Clan Wolf.



Dishonor a Treaty won by following Clan laws and gain honor in combat or honor the treaty.

Ulric was not a traitor. He was a brilliant tactician, strategist and politician. He played the game and might have won had Khan Chistu followed Zellbrigen. We will never know though.

That was my three c-bills actually. If people have a better source than Sarna for these things, please do post them or send me a message. I am interested to learn more. All in all though, after having read through (and picked out) the bits and pieces here that I wanted to show, I still agree with the Corbett/Tesuine side.

EDIT 1: Got rid of some hotlinks. They were disturbing.
EDIT 2: Put in quotes. Thanks Shar Wolf.


Well summarized Vincent, well said, I agree completely with this assessment. Jaroth posting links to the stuff I did not have access to (Tukayyid source specifically) was ever so helpful.

#285 Tesunie

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:31 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 16 March 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

How so?


In the fact that I...
took pleasure in this thread, as the hot discussion was...
rather entertaining and challenging...

At least till it became obvious that we were going to go no where, even with solid canon sources...

#286 Vincent V. Kerensky

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 05:51 PM

It would seem though that a similar thread continues under the Jade Falcon subforums.

http://mwomercs.com/...der-conspiracy/

Edited by Vincent V Kerensky, 16 March 2014 - 05:51 PM.


#287 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:19 PM

View PostTesunie, on 16 March 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:


In the fact that I...
took pleasure in this thread, as the hot discussion was...
rather entertaining and challenging...

At least till it became obvious that we were going to go no where, even with solid canon sources...

You weren't alone in that :D

View PostVincent V Kerensky, on 16 March 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

It would seem though that a similar thread continues under the Jade Falcon subforums.

http://mwomercs.com/...der-conspiracy/

Why am I not surprised who started it? :ph34r:

#288 Tesunie

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:21 PM

View PostVincent V Kerensky, on 16 March 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

It would seem though that a similar thread continues under the Jade Falcon subforums.

http://mwomercs.com/...der-conspiracy/


*Debates if he wants to go in there and "kick the hornets nest"*

*Debates if it would be considered stocking if he posted in there, and mentioned the "amazing timing" of his "anti-wolf" thread when he gave up (and was defeated) here, posting the last bit of evidence from this thread over to his new thread*


I am not sure what I want to do. Is it worth stirring things up? (Seen as he has no respect for my "non-canon backed" claims.)

#289 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:25 PM

View PostTesunie, on 16 March 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

I am not sure what I want to do. Is it worth stirring things up? (Seen as he has no respect for my "non-canon backed" claims.)

Lets just wait and see what the Falcon's have to say about it.

After all, they tend to have more respect for the Wolves than he does. :D

#290 Tesunie

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:36 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 16 March 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

Lets just wait and see what the Falcon's have to say about it.

After all, they tend to have more respect for the Wolves than he does. :D


I find it funny that, he isn't a supporter of Falcon, yet he posts a new thread in there...

I think he's hoping someone there will pat his back, let him cry on their shoulders, tell them it's all okay and he's right, so he can come back here and try to rub our noses into the fact "we were wrong". Might not be what he's doing, but it looks/appears/seems that way.

#291 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:40 PM

Only one way to find out! :D

Edit: Following it....could be fun.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 16 March 2014 - 06:40 PM.


#292 Tesunie

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:42 PM

I'm secretly watching that thread... so I shall see what becomes of it... It's still temping to post a link to this thread, and then tell him to look at the last two pages, with links to that as well. And maybe even a quote of the last couple of canon quoting quotes...

#293 Vincent V. Kerensky

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:44 PM

I am too tempted to post there... Working on a post actually and most of what is said in the start is true. Would like it much better if he backed his statements with sources though...

#294 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:45 PM

I will be following it myself. He never did reply to my last post directed at him. I will give him the benefit of the doubt though. I hope I was clear enough with my contributions to guide people to draw their own conclusions. I know I made some mistakes but overall I think all the information anyone could want regarding that particular discussion was made available.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 16 March 2014 - 06:46 PM.


#295 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:51 PM

View PostVincent V Kerensky, on 16 March 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

Would like it much better if he backed his statements with sources though...

You are kidding! :D

#296 Vincent V. Kerensky

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:55 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 16 March 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

You are kidding! :D


No, I am not. I would love if he could back his statements with sources. Currently going through his post and I find pages saying different things on Sarna. I know Sarna is not perfect but it is better than nothing.

#297 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:55 PM

Oh boy he already made a bad start. :D

#298 Tesunie

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:59 PM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 16 March 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

I will be following it myself. He never did reply to my last post directed at him. I will give him the benefit of the doubt though. I hope I was clear enough with my contributions to guide people to draw their own conclusions. I know I made some mistakes but overall I think all the information anyone could want regarding that particular discussion was made available.


Seen as some (actually, quite a bit) of his information from what little I've read is not entirely true... Um... :D


"Could it be that the Refusal War actually had nothing to do with any great danger from the Crusaders, because we can see they were not about to break the Truce? Why did the war start then?"
Jade Falcon was stock piling on one of the front worlds, ready to drive right towards Tarra...

"But the entire touman was bid to defend him, why? Why was no other Clan permitted to bid to defend the Il Khan? By what law did Clan Wolf claim this supposed honour, which was then denied any other Clan? Why did no other Clan bid lower than a whole touman to defend Ulric?"
Because he was no longer IllKhan by this point, and was demoted in rank and returned to his clan. Making it so he was now a member of Clan Wolf, which meant, from my understanding of the bidding system, their responsibility to refuse and defend his charges...?


(Just to pull out a few things...)

#299 Jaroth Corbett

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 07:07 PM

Why is he saying Ulric took three charges to the Grand Council when we already established it was only one? :D

Why is he asking why Ulric would go to the Grand Council when I quoted the source showing the seriousness of the third (*cough*bullshit*cough*) charge? :ph34r:

I am confuzzled.

#300 Tesunie

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 07:17 PM

View PostJaroth Corbett, on 16 March 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Why is he saying Ulric took three charges to the Grand Council when we already established it was only one? :D

Why is he asking why Ulric would go to the Grand Council when I quoted the source showing the seriousness of the third (*cough*bullshit*cough*) charge? :ph34r:

I am confuzzled.


He's just trolling, and probably trying to see if he can bait us. Or he wants someone else to agree with him to make himself feel better? Either way, that post has so many flaws in it... :P





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