343 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Additionally...you point out the numbers of forces the wolves fought, but not what they bid to take them.

Why not discuss the fact that regardless how many you are facing, if you are fighting at equal odds as the others you are still superior in combat? Because it is not convenient to your Crusader "Wolf is weak" argument.

Jade Falcons may have had to face higher numbers, but it does not mean they fought at different odds than the Wolves. You are overlooking crucial information which we do not have, and no source book I am familiar with details. What was bid to take each world.

Hence your entire argument about the forces encountered in the invasion corridor is invalid because you cannot supply what Clan Wolf bid to take them. Suppose they took 2 heavy Regiments with a single star...? Now what? They are weak? Poppycock...the argument being presented is one sided in that the information required to actually be able to determine the odds is not present.

[SMDMadCow]

Actually we do know one instance of a bid, Natasha Kerensky bid one warrior to take the world of Gunzburg. Phelan Wolf negotiated the surrender of an entire world, no lives or materiel wasted.

[Craig Steele]

I give up, if you want to have an argument around non canon sources this will go everywhere except the facts.

When you say that even though canon says Falcon's Tukayyid was a draw, therefore they lost, I can see this conversation is pointless. Canon quite clearly states only Clan Wolf was adjudged a victor as they held 2 objectives when Ulric called the campaign over. Ergo, Ghost Bear and Jade Falcon were the same (all the others were defeats) EXACTLY AS I QUOTED. You seem to simply refuse to accept what is right in front of you so there's little point in me discussing it.

Heres the link of what canon sources are (note Sarna is not on there)

http://bg.battletech...php?topic=586.0

Many people get confused with the Warden view because Ulric / Clan Wolf were the champions of the cause and they fail to see how Clan Wolf slipped away from the Warden view through Ulric's manipulations. Many people cannot differentiate between what Ulric was supposed to do as Il Khan on behalf of the Grand council and what he was doing on behalf of Clan Wolf / himself.

The reality is that canon shows Ulric as someone who held beliefs strongly opposite to the causes he claimed to support, and from within his positions of authority he manipulated thousands of Clan warriors to their deaths to satisfy his pesonal agenda.

Canon shows him as a traitor and while there are certainly references saying Ulric as this and that, there is no actual canon source that demonstrates the claims. What I mean by that is yes, Nova Cat (and others) say he is a logistics genius and man of foresight, but there is no canon that demonstrates that. What Canon shows is that he made marginal improvements in some areas and by comparison to the weakness of other Clans in the area, he is elevated.

Put a family sedan next a beat up rust bucket and ask someone which is the better car, but it doesn't make the Sedan a Ferrari.

I am more than happy to debate the issue and help people understand the universe better (or for that matter, improve my own understanding) because it is a rich and detailed universe. But I only want to deal with the canon, not any fan boy fiction.

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 10 March 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Additionally...you point out the numbers of forces the wolves fought, but not what they bid to take them.

Why not discuss the fact that regardless how many you are facing, if you are fighting at equal odds as the others you are still superior in combat? Because it is not convenient to your Crusader "Wolf is weak" argument.

Jade Falcons may have had to face higher numbers, but it does not mean they fought at different odds than the Wolves. You are overlooking crucial information which we do not have, and no source book I am familiar with details. What was bid to take each world.

Hence your entire argument about the forces encountered in the invasion corridor is invalid because you cannot supply what Clan Wolf bid to take them. Suppose they took 2 heavy Regiments with a single star...? Now what? They are weak? Poppycock...the argument being presented is one sided in that the information required to actually be able to determine the odds is not present.

This is a ridiculous view and tells me you have not even bothered to read the thread.

The claim was made that Clan Wolf sustained less losses than the other Clans ergo, was superior.

I pointed out of course they had less losses, they did less fighting.

You now claim that because they sent less forces into battle (maybe) they are better warriors?

You making tangent arguments to sustain an indefensiable postion.

Clan Wolf DID have an easier invasion corridor, end of story, full stop. Because they had an easier invasion corridor they took less casualities, end of story, full stop.

That they took less casualities IS NOT an argument they are better warriors. Come up with something meaningful and of substance cause that one just don't fly.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

I give up, if you want to have an argument around non canon sources this will go everywhere except the facts.

Phelan negotiating that world's surrender was in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy - which does fall under cannon sources.

Face it Craig - you are ignoring as much of their evidence as they are ignoring yours - if not more so.

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 10 March 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

I find it funny how when it comes to the Warden Wolfs you bring out everything on anything wrong with them. But when it comes to the Crusader Falcons, the details are so shallow it is really no better than not bringing them up at all.

Because this is a Wolves centred thread, I also make reference to many other clans in my posts but I focus on the Clan Wolf aspects because they are the relevant subject.

If you want to have a Jade Falcon discussion, happy to. Start it up and lets go (canon only please)

Shar Wolf, on 10 March 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

Phelan negotiating that world's surrender was in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy - which does fall under cannon sources.

Face it Craig - you are ignoring as much of their evidence as they are ignoring yours - if not more so.

What? I never said that? It is Canon. What I said was that in a culture where combat is valued higher than dimplomacy, this is not proof of Clan Wolf's superiority.

Using the tounge as a weapon is not might is right was my point.

I am far from ignoring it at al;

[Alaskan Nobody]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

What? I never said that? It is Canon.

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

I give up, if you want to have an argument around non canon sources this will go everywhere except the facts.

Suuuure ya didn't.

So far every thing they have quoted has had a cannon source
Every single thing they have quoted from sarna has been quoting a cannon source.
Complete with links to where to find said cannon source.

I say again:

Shar Wolf, on 10 March 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

You are ignoring as much of their evidence as they are ignoring yours - if not more so.

Edit: Sarna may not be cannon itself - but when it tells you directly where to find the cannon source it is quoting.....

Edited by Shar Wolf, 10 March 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

Shar Wolf, on 10 March 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Suuuure ya didn't.

So far every thing they have quoted has had a cannon source
Every single thing they have quoted from sarna has been quoting a cannon source.
Complete with links to where to find said cannon source.

I say again:


Edit: Sarna may not be cannon itself - but when it tells you directly where to find the cannon source it is quoting.....

But it does not support his ideas, it MUST be lies.

[Craig Steele]

Shar Wolf, on 10 March 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Suuuure ya didn't.

So far every thing they have quoted has had a cannon source
Every single thing they have quoted from sarna has been quoting a cannon source.
Complete with links to where to find said cannon source.

I say again:


Edit: Sarna may not be cannon itself - but when it tells you directly where to find the cannon source it is quoting.....

There are glaring gaps in Sarna even as presented in this thread.

For example, someone posted a quote from Sarna regarding the Trial of Refusal for the Invasion, including a comment about casualities. Everything around the casuality comment is in the source book. Someone, probably a Wolf Fan boy, dressed up the casuality thing and hence it paints a distorted picture.

That quote has a reference too......

And on Phelan, scroll up. It's in this thread. My observation is only that Phelans deeds while significant, are not support for excellence in a military culture where might is right.

I can pull apart virtually every point in the posts above with Canon sources, in fact I was half way through when I stopped because I just realised the obvious, no matter what Canon says some people prefer a non canon one. And thats OK, it's just not my world, I prefer the warts and all canon world.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

There are glaring gaps in Sarna even as presented in this thread.

There are glaring gaps in what YOU have said!

You have pulled apart their holes and they have pulled apart yours!

The difference being they have admitted that they can see where your point comes from but you have your head shoved so far up your ****** orifice that you cannot hear anything but what they have said wrong.

Welcome to the ignore list buddy.

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 10 March 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

But it does not support his ideas, it MUST be lies.

Now I'm a liar?

Oh dear that's getting personal isn't it?

Look if you want a fantasy world where Ulric is a superman no worries. Go for it soldier.

But you cannot dispute any of the Canon I have presented except to mould tangent arguments based on Sarna quotes which are not canon (although some of the links have been accurate which I have acknowledged where relevant).

Ergo, I'm very comfortable that my views have a solid base in canon and are more representative of the facts of the canon universe.

"Liar liar pants on fire" won't change that.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

Now I'm a liar?

Oh dear that's getting personal isn't it?

Guess it is a good thing you never claimed the same about the..... OH WAIT

/last post

Have a nice day everyone

[Craig Steele]

Shar Wolf, on 10 March 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

There are glaring gaps in what YOU have said!

You have pulled apart their holes and they have pulled apart yours!

The difference being they have admitted that they can see where your point comes from but you have your head shoved so far up your ****** orifice that you cannot hear anything but what they have said wrong.

Welcome to the ignore list buddy.

Where's the glaring gaps? No one can seems to be able to show me one without using Sarna references?

My head's just fine Sharwolf. I'm prepared to listen (and have done for days and days on this thread) but I can't argue against non canon sources.

Sorry, that just doesn't fly.

[Gyrok]

My view is ridiculous to you because you have no information to refute it...

Convenient.

Give me the bids Clan Wolf used against those worlds.

Additionally, as was pointed out earlier, Clan Wolf had their invasion corridor ASSIGNED, it was not chosen.

Also, you say their flanks were strong, however, I also seem to remember you commenting about Ulric starting the 4th wave of the invasion a week ahead of the others, which would have meant that their flanks were not at all protected past wave 4 because both the Ghost Bears and Smoke Jags struggled mightily to ATTEMPT to keep up.

Now which is it? They were weak and protected, or they forged ahead and the others struggled to keep up, because that logic is contradictory. The 2 points cannot coexist logically...either they were the spearhead (which is true) and out running everyone, or they were protected in the middle of the pack. Canon sources also have no substantial data to back either of your points up on that front.

(Also has many source book .pdf files)

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

For example, someone posted a quote from Sarna regarding the Trial of Refusal for the Invasion, including a comment about casualities. Everything around the casuality comment is in the source book. Someone, probably a Wolf Fan boy, dressed up the casuality thing and hence it paints a distorted picture.

Every one knows it was a 4-1 fight. And you yourself said...

Craig Steele, on 06 March 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

All my sources say "narrow defeat".

What are your sources that tell me otherwise?

Edit: It is like you are trying to find the fewest details that support Clan Wolf as possible.

Edited by Nathan K, 10 March 2014 - 04:34 PM.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

Because this is a Wolves centred thread, I also make reference to many other clans in my posts but I focus on the Clan Wolf aspects because they are the relevant subject.

If you want to have a Jade Falcon discussion, happy to. Start it up and lets go (canon only please)



What? I never said that? It is Canon. What I said was that in a culture where combat is valued higher than dimplomacy, this is not proof of Clan Wolf's superiority.

Using the tounge as a weapon is not might is right was my point.

I am far from ignoring it at al;

Cannon only, as in "What I say is Cannon only please, and not what everyone else here considers a good source of cannon material", as in "The reference and source books I own only please". We present things that, as Shar Wolf has mentioned, reference and tell you where it references, cannon sources. But because you don't call it cannon...



Funny, yet Clan Widowmaker was deemed prime for absorption because they killed off some of their merchant cast. If "might makes right", then Widowmaker shouldn't have even been looked at.

Also, the clans to a lot of unclanlike things throughout there history. Just about every IllKhan, despite being "of every clan, and of none" have used the position to farther their own agendas, the agendas of their clan, and to weaken other clans against them. Ulric was no exception...


I'm feeling like my sources and comments are being ignored, or picked apart with a fine tooth comb, and then having some things I say twisted in upon itself and made to say something similar...

I still stand by, "to call the wolves weak is a mistake".

PS: Saying a Draw is the same thing as a narrow victory (Jade Falcon/Ghost Bear) is incorrect. Only Wolf and Ghost Bear were awarded Victories. Jade Falcon got a draw, which was that they didn't win but didn't lose. The rest of the clans just lost.


We could go on and on about this...

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 10 March 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

Cannon only, as in "What I say is Cannon only please, and not what everyone else here considers a good source of cannon material", as in "The reference and source books I own only please". We present things that, as Shar Wolf has mentioned, reference and tell you where it references, cannon sources. But because you don't call it cannon...



Funny, yet Clan Widowmaker was deemed prime for absorption because they killed off some of their merchant cast. If "might makes right", then Widowmaker shouldn't have even been looked at.

Also, the clans to a lot of unclanlike things throughout there history. Just about every IllKhan, despite being "of every clan, and of none" have used the position to farther their own agendas, the agendas of their clan, and to weaken other clans against them. Ulric was no exception...


I'm feeling like my sources and comments are being ignored, or picked apart with a fine tooth comb, and then having some things I say twisted in upon itself and made to say something similar...

I still stand by, "to call the wolves weak is a mistake".

PS: Saying a Draw is the same thing as a narrow victory (Jade Falcon/Ghost Bear) is incorrect. Only Wolf and Ghost Bear were awarded Victories. Jade Falcon got a draw, which was that they didn't win but didn't lose. The rest of the clans just lost.


We could go on and on about this...

Yeah, I'm still of the view that if it's good enough for the guys who govern and monitor the BT universe it's good enough for me. They don't say Sarna is canon, I prefer to only have a debate around canon, therefore I will not use Sarna as canon (or where I do I specifically highlight it is a non canon source)

The fact is Sarna is not canon, it has additions and ommissions (but clearly it is a good source and has a lot of accurate material) so I prefer to debate an issue around Canon, sue me. I like to keep debates on a solid foundation. If Sarna has a source and you check that source then quote the source. An argument on "Sarna says" or "heres the link" is prone to errors.

Your Widowmaker comparison I don't understand. The Grand Council chose to intervene, it was a majority decision by the Clans. They had the opportunity to defend themselves against the Grand Councils Judgement and they lost. I am no more critical of this process than I am of Clan Wolf losing the Invasion Refusal Trial. The thing I will debate is that unlike Clan Widowmaker, Clan Wolf / Ulric refused to accept the Grand Councils judgement or their loss in battle and continued to sabotage the will of Nicholas.

Khans did, but they were internal matters. Il Khans did not. For a long time there was no Il Khan but Canon has no record of Il Khans acting in anything other than a manner that was as directed by the Grand Council as far as I can see. Have you an example?

I am sorry if you feel I am picking on you, I am not. I am trying to show where some claims that people have are challenged or simply incorrect according to canon. This is not about me making your life difficult. Some posts here I have freely acknowledged as something I didn't know and my knowledge of the world is richer accordingly.

But equally where I know that canon refutes some beliefs, I will bring that forward.

I don't think I said Wolves were weak since day one, although maybe late one night I stuffed up. Happy to be corrected.

My point has been and will remain that they were not as strong as other Clans, that they were weaker than other Clans, between 3048 and 3058 (basically Ulric's reign). My view is borne out in canon by the fact that they did not defeat any other clans in major battles, even when they put whole Galaxies on the line.

Some people have refuted this by arguing their performance in the Inner Sphere demonstrates their strength which I counter as comparing apples to oranges. The fact is that Clan Wolf did have the easiest Invasion Corridor and the least oppostion so they should have had a superior performance. That performance is not evidence of superioirty in a military sense to other Clans.

Some people point to the battle at Tukayyid as proof of Clan Wolfs military prowess and again canon is very clear, Clan Wolf enjoyed significant advantages and had still not secured a convincing definitive victory when the Il Khan called the campaign closed. They were still fighting. We will never know if they could have held off a Comstar counter attack or suffered the same fate as some other Clans.

Some people point to instances such as Phelan taking a word single handedly as proof of Clan Wolf's military superioirty and I counter that with the canon that no military engagement took place on Gunzburg, it was diplomacy and thus not evidence of any military superioirity of Clan Wolf.

Canon is pretty clear on the outcome of Tukayyid however you want to wrap the words. There was only one Clan JUDGED to have won their trial, Clan Wolf. Four Clans were JUDGED to have lost (Smoke Jaguars, Nova Cats, Diamond Sharks, Steel Vipers) The other two call it draw call it narrow victory (see the problem with relying on multiple sources) they had to be the same. Thats Canon. If you want to argue GB was a narrow victory, fine so was JF. If you want to argue JF was a drawn, fine so was GB. My point was speficially regarding Clan Wolf's result.

In any case, if people want to rely upon a BT Universe that is not canon (or largely canon) that suits their personal needs go for it. I'm not stopping them.

Hopefully this thread has shown some people how deep and rich the BT Universe is and how that with a little investigation, some long argued sentiments have no basis in canon. Not withstanding there will be still those who continue to prefer an alternative universe.

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 10 March 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

My view is ridiculous to you because you have no information to refute it...



Now which is it? They were weak and protected, or they forged ahead and the others struggled to keep up, because that logic is contradictory. The 2 points cannot coexist logically...either they were the spearhead (which is true) and out running everyone, or they were protected in the middle of the pack. Canon sources also have no substantial data to back either of your points up on that front.

(Also has many source book .pdf files)

Go and read them and you will have your answers, perhaps then we can discuss on an even playing field.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

1. The fact is Sarna is not canon, it has additions and ommissions (but clearly it is a good source and has a lot of accurate material)

2. Your Widowmaker comparison I don't understand. The Grand Council chose to intervene, it was a majority decision by the Clans. They had the opportunity to defend themselves against the Grand Councils Judgement and they lost. I am no more critical of this process than I am of Clan Wolf losing the Invasion Refusal Trial. The thing I will debate is that unlike Clan Widowmaker, Clan Wolf / Ulric refused to accept the Grand Councils judgement or their loss in battle and continued to sabotage 3. the will of Nicholas.

4. Khans did, but they were internal matters. Il Khans did not. For a long time there was no Il Khan but Canon has no record of Il Khans acting in anything other than a manner that was as directed by the Grand Council as far as I can see. Have you an example?

5. My point has been and will remain that they were not as strong as other Clans, that they were weaker than other Clans, between 3048 and 3058 (basically Ulric's reign). My view is borne out in canon by the fact that they did not defeat any other clans in major battles, even when they put whole Galaxies on the line.

6. I don't think I said Wolves were weak since day one, although maybe late one night I stuffed up. Happy to be corrected.

7. Some people have refuted this by arguing their performance in the Inner Sphere demonstrates their strength which I counter as comparing apples to oranges. The fact is that Clan Wolf did have the easiest Invasion Corridor and the least oppostion so they should have had a superior performance. That performance is not evidence of superioirty in a military sense to other Clans.

8. Some people point to the battle at Tukayyid as proof of Clan Wolfs military prowess and again canon is very clear, Clan Wolf enjoyed significant advantages and had still not secured a convincing definitive victory when the Il Khan called the campaign closed. They were still fighting. We will never know if they could have held off a Comstar counter attack or suffered the same fate as some other Clans.

9. The other two call it draw call it narrow victory (see the problem with relying on multiple sources) they had to be the same. Thats Canon. If you want to argue GB was a narrow victory, fine so was JF. If you want to argue JF was a drawn, fine so was GB. My point was speficially regarding Clan Wolf's result.

10. In any case, if people want to rely upon a BT Universe that is not canon (or largely canon) that suits their personal needs go for it. I'm not stopping them.

Hopefully this thread has shown some people how deep and rich the BT Universe is and how that with a little investigation, some long argued sentiments have no basis in canon. Not withstanding there will be still those who continue to prefer an alternative universe.

1. If it's "so close", then what's the problem? Also, you do know that you can create an account for Sarna, and correct any oversights you see... So far, I have not seen anything out of place on Sarna. So, I'm inclined to look at Sarna as a fairly reliable source. If I link to a page, the page has links showing it's sources. You can go link hunting and seeing how reliable the source is if you wish.

2. You keep saying the clans go by "Might makes right". So, the Widowmaker's might used on the merchant class should have been fine. Their might made them right. Right? Apparently the other clans didn't agree with your statement... and then they had to show more might...

3. Nicolas pressed false charged onto an entire clan to get it eliminated when he was Ilkhan... Nicolas's will has nothing to do with the invasion. The invasion was what the current clans wanted for glory, honor, out of fear and a desire to fulfill their "manifest destiny". Well, most of that is on the Crusader beliefs. And as mentioned several times, each clan (and clan warrior even) had a different view on what that goal was and how to obtain it. Wolf was just more radical in it's pursuit and concept of that goal. (This is seriously as bad as being told I'm not playing by page 5 in Warmachine/Hoards with my circle army. Page 5 basically says to not hold back when you play. I tend to attack and withdraw with my Circle army. I get accused of not following page 5, when in fact I am. I'm just not being stupid enough to stand there and let you swing back and kill me is all.)

4. Read Nicolas. Read Clan Wolverine. He acted in his own manner. http://www.sarna.net.../Clan_Wolverine
He was on the verge of losing power, and he created events to regain power at the cost of an entire clan. And entire INNOCENT clan...
"The Wolverines were among the most vocal critics of ilKhan Nicholas Kerensky's authoritarian rule over the Clans. Official Clan histories state that they were Annihilated for expousing anti-Clan sentiments, such as democracy and independence, but the reality is somewhat different. Many Clans were suffering internal strife at the time of the Clan Wolverine incident, and Nicholas saw that the Clans as a whole were on the brink of rebelling against his authority. The Wolverines served as both object lesson and common enemy against whom the other nineteen Clans could unite. There were also personal reasons for dissent between Khan Sarah McEvedy and Nicholas Kerensky - McEvedy was close to Nicholas' brother Andery Kerensky and suspected that Nicholas played a strong role in his death."
All that to, basically, dodge what may have been a possible murder charge...

5. They were one of the top four clans in strength. Most of those fights they "lost", they were grossly out matched, and even then they barely lost. If they were Falcons, they would be calling them all draws, simply because they "caused more damage than they did". (Jade Falcons, by the way, where considered to be a little weaker than Wolf, but was stronger in the political realm.)

6. And you say this right before you call them weak again... contradict yourself much?

7. I have to agree with someone else. When they were fighting those "smaller forces", how far down did they bid? Did they manage to take worlds with a company of mechs with but a single star? Did they manage to maybe take over worlds with only a single warrior? Due to clan customs, they may have had the easiest attack option, but that doesn't mean they made it easy for themselves. Can you provide the numbers on how many mechs were bid in each engagement for every force of the clans, and the exact size of the forces that they were fighting against? For all we know, Wolf could have been underbidding everyone else by odds and ratio sizes. They could have been going into every fight 4-1 odds, and the rest of the clans could have been bidding on 2-1 odds...

8. Wolf was the ONLY clan to take their two objectives. As soon as they took their two objectives, they won. They did not have to hold the two objectives, only take the two. Falcon had entered into one objective and had to run. Ghost Bear took one objective and held it, but was unable to take the second one, which would have ended their fight there. The match was over rightly so as soon as Wolf took the second objective. Also, Wolf took on larger numbers than the rest of the clans, again. Every solider that didn't get taken down by the other clans, Wolf had to fight, on top of the same sized force as the rest of the clan forces had to face. They also, unlike the other clans, had to fight the most experienced members of the Comguard. Shall I post the link to Sarna... wait. That's right. The only source I have that I can quickly and easily pull from you don't consider Cannon...

9. Cannon is actually VERY clear on this. Wolf was the only clan to win a decisive victory. Ghost Bear's earned a marginal victory, by being able to take one objective, but failing to be able to get the second one. But they didn't lose the first objective either. Jade Falcon earned a Draw, because they set foot into one target, was unable to hold onto it for any real amount of time, and then high tailed it out of there. They earned a draw (not a win, but not a loss either) due to being able to make it to their target, and causing more damage than they took in.
So, sorry. You are wrong there. Only two clans managed to win. One clan drove it down to a draw. And the rest lost.

10. If you refer to Sarna, so far I have seen it to be accurate. Till proven otherwise (and then I'll be telling Sarna that something is not cannon), I shall continue to use it as a reference. Seen as, you are also the only person to say Sarna isn't good for referencing about cannon material...

[SMDMadCow]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

What? I never said that? It is Canon. What I said was that in a culture where combat is valued higher than dimplomacy, this is not proof of Clan Wolf's superiority.

Using the tounge as a weapon is not might is right was my point.

Actually, the ability to take a planet without wasting lives is looked higher on in Clan culture than having to fight for it. The Clans are not always about "might is right" or the Diamond Sharks would never be known as the merchant masters, there does not have to be trial over everything.
Waste is abhorred in Clan society above all else and is the basis of Zellbrigen and the bidding system. You bid down make sure you are not wasting materiel, while at the same time saying your peen is bigger cause you can do it with less.