108 replies to this topic

[Corbon Zackery]

The LRM spam launchers need to go.

Right now the rate fire is ridicules. The LRM turrets auto lock onto one person until it is destroyed. They have unlimited ammo, and are placed on high ground in areas like canyon network. They ignore ECM when targeting. There also burning out your AMS system.

The AI is so sloppy I am amazed they made it onto all the maps.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 10 March 2014 - 08:21 AM.

[Haji1096]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...peaks&m=assault

With regards to the Alpine Peaks and assault mode.

The (red) team that spawns in L10, J11, and F11 were in an advantageous before turrets. They are in a better position to take H10 and I10, which is the most important position on the map.

Turrets cut off any attempt to flank a a red team holding H10/I10. You can't go north of that position because you take turret fire in G9. You can't go around to H11/I11 because turrets can see up that hill as well. Turrets also cover E10, F10 and F11.

That leave's three options, defend blue base, try and rush H10, I10..hope red team is slow and you can take it before them, or hold the comm tower..hope that red team gets impatient and attempts to cap.

There should only be two or three turrets with medium lasers guarding the base itself. Hitpoints should be lowered.

Edit: Also, it seems that turret LRMs are not effected by ECM and have better tracking than normal LRMS. Cut to the Mobile Field Base before battle:

Mechwarrior: "Our turrets have superior LRMS, can I put those on my mech ? You know, to win the battle ?"

Tech: "Don't be ridiculous, they are only for turrets...TLRMS, now go be useless and die like you are supposed to."

Edited by Haji1096, 10 March 2014 - 05:10 AM.

[Evil Ed]

Kjudoon, on 09 March 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

I'd say we need to walk this back in very deliberate stages to where the balance returns. Each step might just be enough and others would then not be needed.

This is just so wrong. Why do "small changes" to something that broke a gamemode that worked perfectly fine? It is up to the teams to keep eyes on flanks so no "capwarriors" slips through, it's the teams responsibility to answer to cap attempts. I simply don't understand why PGI should listen to people who don't like capping in assault with skirmish available.
Turrets should be removed and not implemented again until we have attack/defend mode. And when added to attack/defend mode - start with just a few shortrange ones to balance the matches, and ramp up from that if necessary.

[VXJaeger]

In small maps game has changed into "turret camping", specially on Forest Colonies

[Evil Ed]

Experiment is closed, but will mention this last assault match I played yesterday:

51. CN. This match I decided to be more active in how my team acted. Started as a skirmish C4/D4 and I made sure my team always was one kill ahead. At 8-7 with us pretty damaged and the enemy tending to fall back due to severe damage I asked my team to fall back to base in A3. We took defensive positions covering B3 area leaving our left flank open (covered by turrets). Enemy fell back to their base, hopeing that we would attack. 6 minutes of waiting, seeing an enemy Firestarter once. Full time and win to us.
Interesting thing is that once we had fallen back the enemy didn't have a chance to win - and more importantly: It would be a huge risk us attacking them. The turrets really took command in this game and forced us to wait the full 15 minutes to secure the win. Without turrets this match was probably 80-20 to our favor and still a bit interesting.

Edited by Evil Ed, 10 March 2014 - 01:37 AM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

OMGZORZS stop capping, QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

So it gets fixed and now its..

OMGZORZS stop turrets, QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ



Think out side your little boxes old people. The turrets are hear to stay!
This is not your grandpas table top mech game. Shouldn't most of you be sending your grand kids hard stuck together candy no only has liked since pre civil war?

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 10 March 2014 - 05:29 AM.

[VXJaeger]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 10 March 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

OMGZORZS stop capping, QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
So it gets fixed and now its..
OMGZORZS stop turrets, QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
Think out side your little boxes old people. The turrets are hear to stay!
This is not your grandpas table top mech game. Shouldn't most of you be sending your grand kids hard stuck together candy no only has liked since pre civil war?

Yes yes, but there's no sense to have LRM-turrets who can spam half of maps with constant steel rain.
Maybe 4 turrets/base, and weaponary something like one LL would be enough. And no LRM at all.

Edited by VXJaeger, 10 March 2014 - 06:21 AM.

[Evil Ed]

VXJaeger, on 10 March 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

Yes yes, but there's no sense to have LRM-turrets who can spam half of maps with constant steel rain.
Maybe 4 turrets/base, and weaponary something like one LL would be enough. And no LRM at all.

Yes, something like that, maybe. A small number of turrets equiped with close range weapons close or on the base capable of preventing that 1 ML- left-and-already-cored-mech to capwin. That's it, and that's how the turrets should have been implemented when starting experimenting with PvE. But - I rather prefer true PvP.

Edited by Evil Ed, 10 March 2014 - 06:40 AM.

[VXJaeger]

I have so confess, that I have no exact solution to this turret issue. I believe that original idea was to keep little buggers from capping bases right at start of match, but it has metamorphosed into problem under some occasions (mainly by LRM-turrets)
Could switch of weaponary, reducing number of them and them switching off if defenders are nearby be the solution? Still there will be that case when single spider hides somewhere and forces everybody to wait until clock runs out, if attackers are in such bad health that they can't risk themselves. But removing LRM-spammers would be a good start.

Edited by VXJaeger, 10 March 2014 - 06:51 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Evil Ed, on 10 March 2014 - 01:28 AM, said:

Experiment is closed, but will mention this last assault match I played yesterday:

51. CN. This match I decided to be more active in how my team acted. Started as a skirmish C4/D4 and I made sure my team always was one kill ahead. At 8-7 with us pretty damaged and the enemy tending to fall back due to severe damage I asked my team to fall back to base in A3. We took defensive positions covering B3 area leaving our left flank open (covered by turrets). Enemy fell back to their base, hopeing that we would attack. 6 minutes of waiting, seeing an enemy Firestarter once. Full time and win to us.
Interesting thing is that once we had fallen back the enemy didn't have a chance to win - and more importantly: It would be a huge risk us attacking them. The turrets really took command in this game and forced us to wait the full 15 minutes to secure the win. Without turrets this match was probably 80-20 to our favor and still a bit interesting.

Indeed. I'm seeing this more and more as well.

Solutions could be:

1. disable turrets with 5 minutes left

2. lower turret hitpoints & refire significantly

3. add a turret control point in the middle of map that lets you disable enemy turrets/flip them to your side.

4. move turrets & bases to skirmish mode and bring assault back.

Personally think just disabling turrets with 5 mins left would solve the problem - we are seeing a massive reduction in top quality end of match battles & manuevering due to the turrets.

Case in point, I hit enemy base with my quad ac/5 jaegger and about 100 rounds of ammo left. I took out 4 turrets, only to be legged & then stuck, destroyed by 2 more turrets i didnt realize existed. Ended up costing my team the match as they ended up 2v2 on the other side of map. The base cap is completely futile as a tactical manuever, it's purely a "we rolled you, now we roll your turrets, gg" is about all that its good for anymore, the minute everyone is crippled all the turrets have done is drag games out endlessly.

Assault was definitely better pre-turret, and I'd take the base cap rush over what we see now for gameplay any day.

Conquest takes too long to cap, it's boring, i dont play mech to stand around for 2 minutes flipping bases. assault is basically skirmish with a twist now, and skirmish pretty much remains 12v12 blob warfare.

I hope PGI has some big ideas on how to improve the gamemodes and can quickly revert us back to pre-turret assault which had way more tension filled moments (like both teams capping, 1 team wins by 1 tick) or a race to get on the pad seconds before it's finished capping, etc etc etc.

[Ngamok]

Will you guys complain when they put in turrets and fortified bases (assuming) in CW? Because they said in one of their video blogs that everything they are doing now with these matches is leading us up to systems they are thinking about putting into CW.

Also, played Assault yesterday and day before, few of the matches we capped out after decimating their turrets. Last guy was always a spider or firestarter running around killing time.

Corbon Zackery, on 09 March 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

The LRM spam launchers need to go.

Think they should double the cool down of their LRMs?

[Corvus Antaka]

Ngamok, on 10 March 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

Will you guys complain when they put in turrets and fortified bases (assuming) in CW? Because they said in one of their video blogs that everything they are doing now with these matches is leading us up to systems they are thinking about putting into CW.

Also, played Assault yesterday and day before, few of the matches we capped out after decimating their turrets. Last guy was always a spider or firestarter running around killing time.



Think they should double the cool down of their LRMs?

indeed. but what do you do when its 2-3 of you left with cored CT, 1 lone spider running around and 10 minutes left?

you turtle at your base, wasting 10 minutes of time, because if the enemy turrets hit all of you once, its over, and you lose to the turtling spider. before, you could cap to win.

i've seen 5 instances of this type of occurance in the past week already. Personally, i'd prefer the matches to end quicker than having to wait out a 10min turtle at endgame.

[Ngamok]

VXJaeger, on 10 March 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

In small maps game has changed into "turret camping", specially on Forest Colonies

I think they should reduce those to 4 turrets only. Same for River City day and night. Alpine definately needs 6.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 March 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

indeed. but what do you do when its 2-3 of you left with cored CT, 1 lone spider running around and 10 minutes left?

you turtle at your base, wasting 10 minutes of time, because if the enemy turrets hit all of you once, its over, and you lose to the turtling spider. before, you could cap to win.

i've seen 5 instances of this type of occurance in the past week already. Personally, i'd prefer the matches to end quicker than having to wait out a 10min turtle at endgame.

Well, if it comes down to 2-3 people left and all cored, then it becomes a wait and see which sucks, but it would be the same thing if it were skirmish if the last guy was a light running around for 10 minutes avoiding the enemy. Both modes have a way to cause that. Conquest pretty much has a way to end the match built in regardless of what people do.

Edit: Even if the conquest points had turrets the point timer would still end the game at 750 even if 2-3 people were running around avoiding everything.

Edited by Ngamok, 10 March 2014 - 07:19 AM.

[VXJaeger]

Hmm...would changing all turrets as ML and switching them off @7.5/10min be the answers to this trivia?

[FupDup]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 March 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

Indeed. I'm seeing this more and more as well.

Solutions could be:

1. disable turrets with 5 minutes left

2. lower turret hitpoints & refire significantly

3. add a turret control point in the middle of map that lets you disable enemy turrets/flip them to your side.

4. move turrets & bases to skirmish mode and bring assault back.

Personally think just disabling turrets with 5 mins left would solve the problem - we are seeing a massive reduction in top quality end of match battles & manuevering due to the turrets.

Case in point, I hit enemy base with my quad ac/5 jaegger and about 100 rounds of ammo left. I took out 4 turrets, only to be legged & then stuck, destroyed by 2 more turrets i didnt realize existed. Ended up costing my team the match as they ended up 2v2 on the other side of map. The base cap is completely futile as a tactical manuever, it's purely a "we rolled you, now we roll your turrets, gg" is about all that its good for anymore, the minute everyone is crippled all the turrets have done is drag games out endlessly.

Assault was definitely better pre-turret, and I'd take the base cap rush over what we see now for gameplay any day.

Conquest takes too long to cap, it's boring, i dont play mech to stand around for 2 minutes flipping bases. assault is basically skirmish with a twist now, and skirmish pretty much remains 12v12 blob warfare.

I hope PGI has some big ideas on how to improve the gamemodes and can quickly revert us back to pre-turret assault which had way more tension filled moments (like both teams capping, 1 team wins by 1 tick) or a race to get on the pad seconds before it's finished capping, etc etc etc.

I don't always agree with Panda Vision, but when I do, it's some pretty serious shiznit.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

The concept of the defense turrets covering your control point is fine.

The execution of that concept is what has been lacking thus far.

On the small maps (and River City I'm looking at you with malice in my eyes) there are to many turrets and there coverage/field of fire is to spread out.

On the big maps, the placement of the turrets in relationship to the spawn points could use an adjustment across the board, and in a few cases (Alpine springs to mind) needs to be reworked entirely as the turrets are a distinct significant advantage for their team.

Personally I'd like to see the following adjustments to the assault game mode turret issues:

Reduce the hit points of the turrets overall by 30%, or down to 100 HP.

Reduce the damage mitigation when the Turrets are closed. Cut it in half.

Reduce the LRM turrets to LRM 5's (they are 10's now) turn off the super advanced fire and forget targeting TAG systems they use (I mean seriously, if I was living in the MWO universe, my techs would have long ago wired my LRM boats with turret LRM batteries, even if it required strapping them on with miles of duct tape....)

Give those LRMs the same 180 minimum range as every other Is LRM system.

On the smaller maps reduce the number of turrets overall.

If the metrics prove out the contention of advantages for one side over the other, reduce the number of turrets on that advantaged side.

* a conditional adjustment, on the smaller maps leave everything as it stands now, except change out the LRM's with SRM 4 batteries (which reduces range which would reopen some of the area and relieve some of the issues the turrets have created on those maps)

[Kjudoon]

VXJaeger, on 10 March 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

In small maps game has changed into "turret camping", specially on Forest Colonies

Of course. It's called smart tactics.

Also, why small changes? Because big changes make the problem worse. Assault Spiders anyone? LRMpocalypse? Small change, check. Lather rinse repeat.

[Ngamok]

Kjudoon, on 10 March 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

Of course. It's called smart tactics.

Also, why small changes? Because big changes make the problem worse. Assault Spiders anyone? LRMpocalypse? Small change, check. Lather rinse repeat.

So it's called turret camping. Everyone always said, well, you should guard your base so those lights won't come try and cap you. So people are now hiding in with the turrets thus, forced guarding the base. Isn't this what people whose answer was always, guard your base?

[Corvus Antaka]

One mans turret camping is another mans smart tactics.

smartest tactic in MWO - take 12 jumpsnipers, and sit on your base at assault.

Wait for the enemy to rush you, peek & snipe focus fire while turrets keep you safe from flanking manuevers or anything else the enemy might try. Lots of ECM & AMS so any lrms the enemy brings are worthless. If they try brawling you, just focus fire them 1 by 1 as they pile in. When they cower in fear, jumpsnipe from behind a building.

Remember when jumpsnipers could be countered by "Tactics"

I blieve now all tactics are 12 jumpsnipers per team, cower in your 100 tons of steel with turrets holding your hand if the big bad enemy closes.

yep, that's "mechwarrior, with highly refined tactics"



I'm thinking back to mech2,3,4, mission style gameplay. How many of you jumpsniped your way through those single player missions while escorting vehicles, taking bases, etc etc?

I hope we get some mega gamemode love soon. Currently I feel like the gameplay is devolving rather than evolving.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 10 March 2014 - 09:28 AM.

[NRP]

I've had some interesting Assault matches this weekend, the best of which was an epic "last stand" game where my team basically got beat up by the enemy in the initial skirmish until we were down something like 5-9. Then someone called out "RTB" and the remaining mechs all complied. The enemy got inpatient and attacked our remaining forces at our base. What ensued was one of the most intense, frantic, and EPIC matches I have ever witnessed. We ended up winning 12-11. I can't say how much of a role our turrets played, but I'm sure they helped, as did a totally awesome Jester pilot who soloed the last two enemies.

Now I understand some of the complaints levied against turrets in this thread, and might even agree that some turrets cover too large an area too effectively, but I have to say, for an Attack/Defend game mode what PGI has here in the turret defense systems looks promising.