48 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 09 March 2014 - 02:22 AM, said:

Actually, in Clan culture, the glory of the Clan comes before the glory of the unit which comes before the glory of the individual .

True dat

[CyclonerM]

It seems to be a typical misconcept the Spheroids have of us.

The Clans are more like the DC and, in some way, the CC.

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 09 March 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

It seems to be a typical misconcept the Spheroids have of us.

The Clans are more like the DC and, in some way, the CC.

They draw heavily on both of those yes. Its a bit of CC "get the right result for the people / state" and DC "honour the warrior, honour the state"

The closest direct anolgy is probably the Warrior Houses of Cap Con, and even they have seperate nuances within each of the eight.

Ultimately they are ingrained as servants of Kerensky's words, but each Clan remembers / interpets the words a little different (only the first few lines of each Clans Remberance are consistent with each other)

[Just wanna play]

Craig Steele, on 08 March 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

Oh, you mean a warship with external armour say what, 1,000,000 miles from its hull?

On all sides?

So umm, kinda like a death star?

Thats no moon you know

@ Kadix, agreed. I kinda touched the Jihad lightly and went wtf? 3025 - 3070 was where it was at imo.

bingo

[Mindwipe]

Kadix, on 08 March 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

I sorta understand why some of the changes to the universe happened (making small units relevant again), but the idea that the clans (and everyone else) would all voluntarily disarm (except for lots of infantry and vehicles) is just insane. Combine that with the early Dark Age stuff where a bunch of little groups that look like mini-factions, "Swordsworn" == mini-Davion, etc., while the big boys sit things out just makes no ******* sense at all.

While I never really followed the old Dark Age stuff much, the current books tend to paint all those mini-factions as Republic forces supported/supporting their 'parent' nations agenda. I tend to look at the original Dark Age stuff as what happens in the disintegrating Republic, only slightly touching on the houses near the end.

Kadix, on 08 March 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

The Wolves give up their entire occupation zone. Literally load up everything of military value into dropships and move in with the Lyrans for no reason whatsoever.

After the combined Wolf-Lyran invasion of the former FWL (where the Lyrans basically use the Wolves as human shields), the Wolves decide to leave their alliance with the Lyrans and occupy some conquered FWL planets.

The Wolves hit the stupid tree...hard...just like every other faction post-Jihad...

I actually support this move from at least a story perspective. It spreads the Clans out a bit which is good. From a fluff perspective, it is also tactically sound. Going on the 'alien invasion' theme, the homeworld Clans will show up again, and the Wolves just removed themselves from the most likely invasion corridor while keeping relevant in the Inner Sphere battles.

Good reason? Maybe not, but it is a reason.

PaintedWolf, on 08 March 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

Those suicide tactics sure didn't save them during the Fourth Succession War.

The CapCon ideological change happened after Sun Tzu rose to power, so post 3052 or so. That's when the Cappies started to be an actual force rather than the joke of the game.

Just wanna play, on 08 March 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

okay i have an idea that will actually work, really REALLY far away...spaced armor

I'll admit I'm always a bit fuzzy on space warfare, but realistically wouldn't a nuke have to pretty much hit dead on to do much? After all these warships are made to take the hard radiation and other nasty effects of deep space along with tremendous gravitational forces on moving.

Added to the overall problem is that BattleTech naval battles almost have to happen at jump points or target planetary bodies. Intercept is near impossible and would only grant a fraction of a second of contact time as you crossed paths. Given that the most advanced weapons of this universe fight at what we would consider standard infantry ranges, I really doubt long range warfare is possible. About the only thing you could hit would be a planet. Go go mass drivers!

As for SLDF 'tactics'....I really never know where to begin with them. The fact they lose so much of their forces in the fight against Amaris really doesn't speak well of them. If you look at the numbers they had, losing just couldn't be a factor unless you are working towards that loss. The initial battles in the Rim Worlds were something like 1200 regiments versus 90 and they had 'hard fought' battles?

I don't know the link off hand but there's at least one BattleTech fanfic that explains this by happen Kerensky's family held hostage hence his questionable tactics for a so-called genius. I mean is it too hard to mass your forces and grind the Hegemony down, especially considering you're technically taking back friendly territory you don't have to leave pacifying forces. It's not like they were in a huge race, Amaris couldn't go on the offensive.

While I dislike much of the Jihad, the battles to retake the Protectorate seemed far more reasonable aside from some of the usual stupidity that infests the universe. The overall situation was just more balanced and you could see it from both sides.

Interesting discussion though guys. Thanks for reading my rambles.

[Craig Steele]

Mindwipe, on 10 March 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

I'll admit I'm always a bit fuzzy on space warfare, but realistically wouldn't a nuke have to pretty much hit dead on to do much? (1) After all these warships are made to take the hard radiation and other nasty effects of deep space along with tremendous gravitational forces on moving.

Added to the overall problem is that BattleTech naval battles almost have to happen at jump points or target planetary bodies. Intercept is near impossible and would only grant a fraction of a second of contact time as you crossed paths (2). Given that the most advanced weapons of this universe fight at what we would consider standard infantry ranges, I really doubt long range warfare is possible. About the only thing you could hit would be a planet. Go go mass drivers!

As for SLDF 'tactics'....I really never know where to begin with them. The fact they lose so much of their forces in the fight against Amaris really doesn't speak well of them. If you look at the numbers they had, losing just couldn't be a factor unless you are working towards that loss. The initial battles in the Rim Worlds were something like 1200 regiments versus 90 (3) and they had 'hard fought' battles?

I don't know the link off hand but there's at least one BattleTech fanfic that explains this by happen Kerensky's family held hostage hence his questionable tactics for a so-called genius. I mean is it too hard to mass your forces and grind the Hegemony down, especially considering you're technically taking back friendly territory you don't have to leave pacifying forces. It's not like they were in a huge race, Amaris couldn't go on the offensive.

While I dislike much of the Jihad, the battles to retake the Protectorate seemed far more reasonable aside from some of the usual stupidity that infests the universe. The overall situation was just more balanced and you could see it from both sides.

Interesting discussion though guys. Thanks for reading my rambles.

(1) Armour is a factor sure, but the WMD are much more powerful than the NL / NAC armour is designed to withstand. The Canon isn't clear but we might be talking about the difference between direct hit vs 100km. the point of the discussion was that WMD only have to get comparitivily close compared to other weapons systems.

(2) In a head to head sure, but the Naval tactics were around matching veolcities and heading too. Think old sailing ships and broadsides. Going head to head you might get off one of two salvos (what with reload times etc) and then tack hard to come about, or you come from an angle (behind if you have speed) and come alongside and let them have for as long as you can keep station and stand the damage. They were pretty brutal affairs by all reports.

(3) I'm not real sure on your source or timeline here but at the start of the Amiris Crisis (which is the most commonly discussed SLDF vs Rims World action) The Rims Worlds were basically as large and as powerful as a Successor State.They had hundreds of mech regiments and many factories. A lot of the most loyal units had been transferred to the Hemagony Worlds sure, but 90 seems a little light. Also, There was only one SLDF army charged with taking the Rims World, the 20th. An Army consists of 25 divisions, which equates to (roughly) 200 regiments of which about 10% would have been mech regiments. Assumking Rim Worlds was only 90 regiments with all the advanatges of the defenders, 2 - 1 odds would likely have been a hard fight?

[FoxTrot05]

Wanted to say to the OP, mongol doctrtine is con all the way. CJF are suppose to be decendents of the Star League, so what great society would ever want mongols defending them? Oh Kerensky, how I lothe Malavina Hazen. She is the pet, and I hope to god that they retcon her out of existance. If enough fans of Battletech and Clan Jade Falcon reject her and her Wizkids published filth, then the current publishers just might do it. They have already said that the "future" mentioned in the end of "Surrender Your Dreams" was no longer canon.

Being blood thirsty monsters has doomed Clan Smoke Jag, WoB, and Aramis himself. I want CJF to return to a code of conduct that Alexander Kerensky would approve of, and undo the zenophobic and austire mentality of exiles that some of the Clans in the Inner Sphere still cling to. (Good job Gost Bears and Snow Ravens on at lest "trying" to integrate)

CJF are very well versed in the ways of trade and finance, second strongest next to Sea Fox/Dimond Shark. So, I see it very easy for them letting their civilians own wallets again to shift their economy from military/exile(waste not want not) to military/industrial complex like the good ole US of A. Keep CJF as the elite military and form the second line, garrison, and Solahma/Dezgra into a militia. Let the milita be the anvil and CJF be the hammer.

[Mindwipe]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

(1) Armour is a factor sure, but the WMD are much more powerful than the NL / NAC armour is designed to withstand. The Canon isn't clear but we might be talking about the difference between direct hit vs 100km. the point of the discussion was that WMD only have to get comparitivily close compared to other weapons systems.

(2) In a head to head sure, but the Naval tactics were around matching veolcities and heading too. Think old sailing ships and broadsides. Going head to head you might get off one of two salvos (what with reload times etc) and then tack hard to come about, or you come from an angle (behind if you have speed) and come alongside and let them have for as long as you can keep station and stand the damage. They were pretty brutal affairs by all reports.

(3) I'm not real sure on your source or timeline here but at the start of the Amiris Crisis (which is the most commonly discussed SLDF vs Rims World action) The Rims Worlds were basically as large and as powerful as a Successor State.They had hundreds of mech regiments and many factories. A lot of the most loyal units had been transferred to the Hemagony Worlds sure, but 90 seems a little light. Also, There was only one SLDF army charged with taking the Rims World, the 20th. An Army consists of 25 divisions, which equates to (roughly) 200 regiments of which about 10% would have been mech regiments. Assumking Rim Worlds was only 90 regiments with all the advanatges of the defenders, 2 - 1 odds would likely have been a hard fight?

Can't argue with point 1 because there isn't much fluff on it. Most warships die stupid deaths in canon or are mysteriously defeated by ships that really shouldn't have had a chance.

Problem with space warfare (in BattleTech) is not only are there three dimensions, you also can't be sure where your enemy might come from and finding him is very hard with the bad sensors of BattleTech canon. It really makes the most sense to fight at objectives since at least you know what to defend. And it's there you can really reap the dropships since most BTech fluff has them going in before the warships/aerospace clear a path in. At the heart though, it makes for better visuals fighting at close quarters over a planet.

The numbers for the Rim Worlds/Star League come right out of one of the more recent books. The Terran invasion book one or something. I'll look it up and try and post the page references. It was rather shocking as I always thought what you did. The hard reality is that the Star League army was HUGE! Absolutely ginormous and so far ahead of the others that any real resistance can only be called incompetence. Although to be fair, they were being played by almost every faction including their own half the time so one can't completely fault them. Still how they lost so must is hard to fathom.

[Vanguard319]

FoxTrot05, on 11 March 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Wanted to say to the OP, mongol doctrtine is con all the way. CJF are suppose to be decendents of the Star League, so what great society would ever want mongols defending them? Oh Kerensky, how I lothe Malavina Hazen. She is the pet, and I hope to god that they retcon her out of existance. If enough fans of Battletech and Clan Jade Falcon reject her and her Wizkids published filth, then the current publishers just might do it. They have already said that the "future" mentioned in the end of "Surrender Your Dreams" was no longer canon.

Being blood thirsty monsters has doomed Clan Smoke Jag, WoB, and Aramis himself. I want CJF to return to a code of conduct that Alexander Kerensky would approve of, and undo the zenophobic and austire mentality of exiles that some of the Clans in the Inner Sphere still cling to. (Good job Gost Bears and Snow Ravens on at lest "trying" to integrate)

CJF are very well versed in the ways of trade and finance, second strongest next to Sea Fox/Dimond Shark. So, I see it very easy for them letting their civilians own wallets again to shift their economy from military/exile(waste not want not) to military/industrial complex like the good ole US of A. Keep CJF as the elite military and form the second line, garrison, and Solahma/Dezgra into a militia. Let the milita be the anvil and CJF be the hammer.

I agree, the Falcons have always been forward about how they do things. anything that could tarnish their honor is heresy in their eyes. I cannot imagine someone like Malvina Hazen surviving as it's khan for very long due to her blatant acts of genocide.

On that note, is it just me, or is the Dark age is overrun with individuals who just are horrible people? We have an illegitimate puppet ruler, (Yori Kurita) more Liaos with a god-complex, (Daoshen Liao, Ki-Linn Liao) a bloodthirsty monster, (Hazen) and a batshit insane ******.(Caleb Davion) No wonder it's the most hated part of the timeline.

[Craig Steele]

Vanguard319, on 12 March 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

I agree, the Falcons have always been forward about how they do things. anything that could tarnish their honor is heresy in their eyes. I cannot imagine someone like Malvina Hazen surviving as it's khan for very long due to her blatant acts of genocide.

On that note, is it just me, or is the Dark age is overrun with individuals who just are horrible people? We have an illegitimate puppet ruler, (Yori Kurita) more Liaos with a god-complex, (Daoshen Liao, Ki-Linn Liao) a bloodthirsty monster, (Hazen) and a batshit insane ******.(Caleb Davion) No wonder it's the most hated part of the timeline.

What I found really silly is they went to alot of trouble to create a kinda stable environment that was hugely popular and where small scale actions (that most TT players conduct) were all the rage, then threw it all away with a galaxy wide stroke of the pen. Like they reinvented virtually every state.

It's almost as if the same personalities were written on bits of paper, thrown up in the air and which State they landed closest to they'd be the new flavour of that state.

I don't know why?

[FoxTrot05]

The same could be said about what units were usable with which faction. Add elemental battle armor? Sure, Jade Falcon gets some. Wolves, Ghost Bear, and Nova Cat do not get any, but Steiner, Republic, and Highlander mercenaries get them. Jupiter built by CJF? Only mercenaries get them in dark age.


I would like CJF to sit back for a moment and rebuild their navy. I have heard rumors that the home clans had more than a dozen mobile ship yards, so I hope CJF has one from clan space. Ton for Ton, I'd like to see a few new Texas battleships. Nightlords are glorified troop ships if you compare them to McKenna's and Leviathans.

[Edward Mattlov]

PaintedWolf, on 07 March 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

The new Jade Falcon rule in 3145- planets who lose in their Trials that do not submit are completely wiped out. This means for example, be killed off by Naval Bombardment. This is after they get overturned by a revolutionary lower caste movement. Their new Khan even uses Nukes and they now label themselves "The Golden Ordos."

It actually does seem to work in the fiction so far, they made an example of two worlds and the rest complied.

It is a tried and true tactic, if one person revolts, take that person out along with their family, friends and neighbors and then there will be far fewer people willing to revolt.

Also, we do not want to skip that far into the future, because then we have to deal with Word Of Blake.

Edited by Edward Mattlov, 22 March 2014 - 10:58 PM.

[Kadix]

Edward Mattlov, on 22 March 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

It is a tried and true tactic, if one person revolts, take that person out along with their family, friends and neighbors and then there will be far fewer people willing to revolt.

Also, we do not want to skip that far into the future, because then we have to deal with Word Of Blake.

Aren't there also some true Falcons, members of the expedition to take Skye, that are still holding Skye and the surrounding planets without getting involved in Malvina's treachery.

[Trystan Thorne]

The only good thing about Khan Hazen is the Mech she pilots. Man, those Shrikes are really beautiful.

I actually never got as far to read the Dark Age Novels, but a friend of mine told me about it one day.
Actually due to finally having a decent PC and playing MWO again, it brought back the BattleTech fever a bit.
So I'm re-reading the novels now (will skip some of the weeker ones this time). It's perfect entertainment on my train ride to work. Just started with Decision at Thunder Rift (brings back memories too).

I think I'm derailing the topic here, sorry. Yeah no, when my friend told me about this, I was no, definitely no. Even though I'm more fond of Clan Wolf, I always liked Clan Jade Falcon as well. Feel bad, for the current leadership they have.
Hope that leadership will be replaced soon.

Say, do they still write Dark Age novels? I know there will be a time jump soonish. Did Catalyst actually announce any novels for the new era?

Edited by Trystan Thorne, 12 April 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[_Comrade_]

I never got into the dark age novels. But i will say that if you look at what happen to Turtle Bay in the oribtal bombarement of DC civilians by smoke jageur. It played a role in why the star league invaded clan smoke jageur in operation bulldog. So i believe killing innocents is never a good idea. I am a warden clanner anyways, and i believe we issue Batchall in order to minimize causalities. Where we bid to fight in a area where their isn't heavy civilian presence. Therefore the ways of the clan are met to strengthen peace, not destroy it.

And i

Craig Steele, on 09 March 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

They draw heavily on both of those yes. Its a bit of CC "get the right result for the people / state" and DC "honour the warrior, honour the state"

The closest direct anolgy is probably the Warrior Houses of Cap Con, and even they have seperate nuances within each of the eight.

Ultimately they are ingrained as servants of Kerensky's words, but each Clan remembers / interpets the words a little different (only the first few lines of each Clans Remberance are consistent with each other)

I agree. I think the clans are pretty much a military junta with some aspects of socialism with each clan viewing their clan as a collective of that clan . But unlike the IS, the clans preserved and foster scientific knowledge, whereas the IS blown themselves back to the stone ages with the succession wars.

I think that much like noble houses of the IS you also have various factions bidding to become Khans. But in the clans case these are bloodnames,

[Craig Steele]

Grimwill, on 15 April 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

But unlike the IS, the clans preserved and foster scientific knowledge, whereas the IS blown themselves back to the stone ages with the succession wars.

A bit of this was practical need as well.

Birth rates were not sufficient to maintain the colonies at a self sufficiency level and so "Iron Womb" technology was explored heavily in the beginning, and became bound to their culture.

Apart from that, Clan technology focussed on the military areas because that's what the warriors demanded of their Clan's scientist castes.

[Uncle Totty]

PaintedWolf, on 07 March 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

The new Jade Falcon rule in 3145- planets who lose in their Trials that do not submit are completely wiped out. This means for example, be killed off by Naval Bombardment. This is after they get overturned by a revolutionary lower caste movement. Their new Khan even uses Nukes and they now label themselves "The Golden Ordos."

It actually does seem to work in the fiction so far, they made an example of two worlds and the rest complied.

So... 3145 Jade Falcon is the new WoB?

[Knightshadowsong]

You refer to the blood fowl Manava Hazem Queaff? Though we are currently almost 100 years from when that blood fowl will spill from her iron womb her doctrine is unclanlike and she herself is an afrount to Kerensky's ideals. Were she here now. I would kill her myself.

[Edward Mattlov]

Knightshadowsong, on 21 April 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

You refer to the blood fowl Manava Hazem Queaff? Though we are currently almost 100 years from when that blood fowl will spill from her iron womb her doctrine is unclanlike and she herself is an afrount to Kerensky's ideals. Were she here now. I would kill her myself.

Ah, but we would punch you Wolves in the nose and you would run with your tails between your legs like you did in the past, at least the Wolves who were not smart enough to join the Falcons.

[Edward Mattlov]

Grimwill, on 15 April 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

I never got into the dark age novels. But i will say that if you look at what happen to Turtle Bay in the oribtal bombarement of DC civilians by smoke jageur. It played a role in why the star league invaded clan smoke jageur in operation bulldog. So i believe killing innocents is never a good idea. I am a warden clanner anyways, and i believe we issue Batchall in order to minimize causalities. Where we bid to fight in a area where their isn't heavy civilian presence. Therefore the ways of the clan are met to strengthen peace, not destroy it.

And i



I agree. I think the clans are pretty much a military junta with some aspects of socialism with each clan viewing their clan as a collective of that clan . But unlike the IS, the clans preserved and foster scientific knowledge, whereas the IS blown themselves back to the stone ages with the succession wars.

I think that much like noble houses of the IS you also have various factions bidding to become Khans. But in the clans case these are bloodnames,

If you are a warden, then there is no place for you in Clan Jade Falcon. Terra is the birthright of the clans and any clan which refuses to follow the vision of Kerensky and liberate the peoples of the Inner Sphere from themselves, will be swept aside by the true heirs of Kerensky!