258 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

1)I disagree. Not taking advantage of being able to overheat slightly was poor mech construction. There are no significant penalties on the heatscale for overheating upto 7 heat. Its not until 8 heat that you suffer a to-hit penalty.



2)Well I suppose if you want to play an inferior mech... but battletech players should think like combatants. Which means using the best weapons available to them and not inferior ones. Gauss, PPC, and Medium lasers are the best three options for 3050 tech. As the tech level goes up more viable options become available, but most of them are 3058 or later.

1) A person opinion, and thus agree to disagree.

2) I'll happily take on any of your "Superior" Mechs any time any place(ie Table) .

[Reno Blade]

In TT, the advantage of weapons with 10+ damage was the headshot risk.
A single PPC, AC10, AC20, Gauss could headshot you (9 armor and 3 internals max) if you crit the cockpit or rightout destroy the head.
But in TT you also had a lot of difficult hits because of all the dice roll modifiers.
Running, woods and target movement, overheating and most important: weapon range would all ruin your alpha strikes.
To get the best results you go close, use pulse lasers and streaks, or stand in the back behind cover/in woods and snipe.

Currently the game has a lot less restrictions in weapons range due to the 2/3x max range system.
Missiles (SRM and SSRM) are very limited in that regard and will have a big disadvantage over the other weapons.
There are also a lot of range/speed changes in these tables here:
http://mwomercs.com/...istic-tweaking/

[Mister Blastman]

Khobai, on 08 March 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

then everyone would go back to dual gauss. this endless cycle of nerfing weapons accomplishes nothing. players will always gravitate towards the combination of weapons that does the most pinpoint damage because pinpoint damage is a fundamentally broken game mechanic.

I have been saying this since July of 2012 in Closed Beta. Have the developers acknowledged this even once? N.o.p.e.

[Cimarb]

I switched my AC40 for the slightly less-cheesy GaussJager a few days ago and have loved it. The Gauss mechanic is horrible when paired with other systems, but great fun when paired to itself. I also expect to see tons of them if we do get the ACs/PPCs fixed, so I figured I would play it while it wasn't the FoTM yet...

[Joseph Mallan]

I had plenty of success using twin AC10s on a Jager as well.

[Almond Brown]

Khobai, on 08 March 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

cone of fire is not the only way to spread damage though.

you can spread damage on the other end too, when it hits the target. If a PPC hits someone in the CT it could do 6 damage to the CT and 2 damage to each side torso.

So you still get to aim where your weapons go, but part of the damage is "bled" to adjacent locations in a completely non-random way.

Issue there is if I hit the RT does 2(?) of that 10 points go to the CT? So, that way I take CT damage every hit, except to the arms, as opposed to now where I have to be hit in the CT to take it. Bad bad deal there.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

1) If you can't fire all you got all the time you can't build!

2) That is the reality of YOUR custom BattleTech... I have Modified ever mech in the TT game through the 3075 TRO... and Silver and Blue were not the predominate colors

*cough* Just to put your panties in a bunch...

1) If you're running Triple Strength Myomer, you don't WANT to be "heat neutral"...it's counter-productive.

2) I kinda agree with what Khobai is saying with regard to boating Gauss, PPC and Mediums. I saw a LOT of that in TT where I'm from.....at least...until Clan Large Pulses with Targeting Computers came out....

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 11 March 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

*cough* Just to put your panties in a bunch...

1) If you're running Triple Strength Myomer, you don't WANT to be "heat neutral"...it's counter-productive.

2) I kinda agree with what Khobai is saying with regard to boating Gauss, PPC and Mediums. I saw a LOT of that in TT where I'm from.....at least...until Clan Large Pulses with Targeting Computers came out....

1) For TSM 9 is heat Neutral

2) I have a player that uses a minimum of 12 Gauss per company, I know the players he speaks of... I won against them often enough to to know I build good solid Mechs. I hated the 3075TRO cause everything had PPCs,ER PPCs, Heavy PPCs Snub nosed PPCs or Light PPCs... It glowed blue when I turned off the lights for crying out loud!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 March 2014 - 08:21 AM.

[Willard Phule]

@ Khobai and Joe, with regard to TableTop:

Something else to keep in mind, guys, is whether you're running a "one night deal" or an extended campaign...and whether you're using the RP game (Mechwarrior) along with Battletech.

Some of the "optimum" builds simply aren't available when you've got to deal with battlefield salvage and/or dice rolls to locate things.

As far as "optimum builds" are concerned, you both have to agree that a lot of what is "optimum" comes down to the gameplay of the person playing.

I'll give you a "for example." When I first put together Phule's Company on TT, I focused more on Piloting than on Gunnery.....and the majority of my mechs were jump capable. DFA ends a fight real fast...and when your guy has a better than average chance at pulling it off, all of a sudden, it becomes a viable unit tactic...and not a last act of desperation.

A heavy ML boat with triple strength myomer and a hatchet is nasty...all of a sudden, he moves faster and his physical attacks hit a lot harder. Hard to quantify that with any hard numbers because it fluctuates based on the heat. But you get the idea.

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

1) For TSM 9 is heat Neutral

2) I have a player that uses a minimum of 12 Gauss per company, I know the players he speaks of... I won against them often enough to to know I build good solid Mechs. I hated the 3075TRO cause everything had PPCs,ER PPCs, Heavy PPCs Snub nosed PPCs or Light PPCs... It glowed blue when I turned off the lights for crying out loud!

No HAGs? Really? I love me some HAGs. And RAC5s....love them, too. ESPECIALLY on fast VTOLs that are escorting my Toad Haulers.

Edited by Willard Phule, 11 March 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

I had plenty of success using twin AC10s on a Jager as well.

But I thought you only used the BFG? If you like using the AC10, what is the difference between that and an AC20 that double taps a pair of 10-damage shells? Or quad taps 5-damage shells?

Almond Brown, on 11 March 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Issue there is if I hit the RT does 2(?) of that 10 points go to the CT? So, that way I take CT damage every hit, except to the arms, as opposed to now where I have to be hit in the CT to take it. Bad bad deal there.

There are several ways to do this:

1. Man-made Lightning (spread): this PPC does 6 points of damage where it hits, then does two points of damage to two other sections of the mech randomly, including internals and opposite side. For example, if I hit you in the front RT, it does six points of damage to that component, then arcs to the RA internals for two damage before exiting out the CT rear armor for another two damage.
2. Ion Beam (duration): charge up mechanic, similar to a Gauss, but the charge is accompanied by a TAG-like laser, followed up by the actual PPC blast.
3. Energy-based shotgun (spread): functions like a very small cone LBX, where 5-10 particles shoot out and spread slightly over the weapons range.

[Almond Brown]

Odins Fist, on 11 March 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Nerf this, screw up that, Moses hit me with a wiffle ball bat.. weaky, weaky, weaky, weaky, weaky, weaky...
FLAVOR FLAV...!!! Yeah BOIY..!!

All you need to know about MWO, "2 years later things still aren't finished".

And just >5 years ago, Players would not get a sniff at trying New Game title until after 2.5 years of Dev time had elapsed.

Welcome the new Era of F2P games ladies. Now un-bunch your panties.

P.S. On topic. Simply increase Ballistics ROF -50% and then decrease Energy burn time -30% and all will be well. If the problem is you can't deal with some weapons having more "range", then it may be time to simply move on...

Edited by Almond Brown, 11 March 2014 - 08:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

I love using twin AC20. I can get the job done and have some fun using AC10s. as well.

I have been killing things in games for over 30 years... You think I am only a one trick pony? How do you think I learned what style of play I like best?

The difference is the time it takes for your toon to die. Some days I don't want to use the Maul of the Titans...

most days I do!

[Tombstoner]

As someone who tries to see PGI's choices from the big picture. A lot of what we have discussed over the years would be best addressed after the clans arrival. PGI needed a game system that worked. Is it the best available.. hell no. can it pay the bills sure. PGI's goal number one: profitability = survival and continued development. Rebuilding every game system as things roll out was not reasonable but bandied fixes are. Then they got hit with UI2.0.

Once all major rocks are in place. things like clan warfare,PGI will have the resources to alter, maybe, at the least consider every thing we have stated since closed beta.

With rearguards to the topic... no its not time to change anything. tweaks maybe, in about 12 months we can start rethinking things only after clans and CW is out. Almost everything we have discussed for 2 years interacts with everything else on some level. ghost heat was an ugly necessary and successful evil as the alternative was a complete rework of the game. that can only happen in the form of MWO2.0.

I think what we have covered is a huge amount of material laying the ground work for PGI to at least consider them as options for mwo2.0 with COF, Burst fire, damage spread, pop tarting, 4x ultra 20's(would still loose to 8 x ultra ac-2's).

Remember 3pv?

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 11 March 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

@ Khobai and Joe, with regard to TableTop:

Something else to keep in mind, guys, is whether you're running a "one night deal" or an extended campaign...and whether you're using the RP game (Mechwarrior) along with Battletech.

Some of the "optimum" builds simply aren't available when you've got to deal with battlefield salvage and/or dice rolls to locate things.

As far as "optimum builds" are concerned, you both have to agree that a lot of what is "optimum" comes down to the gameplay of the person playing.

I'll give you a "for example." When I first put together Phule's Company on TT, I focused more on Piloting than on Gunnery.....and the majority of my mechs were jump capable. DFA ends a fight real fast...and when your guy has a better than average chance at pulling it off, all of a sudden, it becomes a viable unit tactic...and not a last act of desperation.

A heavy ML boat with triple strength myomer and a hatchet is nasty...all of a sudden, he moves faster and his physical attacks hit a lot harder. Hard to quantify that with any hard numbers because it fluctuates based on the heat. But you get the idea.



No HAGs? Really? I love me some HAGs. And RAC5s....love them, too. ESPECIALLY on fast VTOLs that are escorting my Toad Haulers.

HAGs were good... bu they were just one more Groups of 5 weapon... Now RACs... you haven't seen scary till you put twin RAC20 on a Demolisher II! and I think 11 tons of ammo??? Yes it runs out of ammo fast... but 240 top damage in one turn and NO HEAT BABY!!!

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Custom battletech was completely unbalanced which is why we played stock mechs only.

I'm sure there's a lesson for PGI here somewhere... Hmm... What could it be?

For the record, the vast majority of my TT games are (and always has been) TRO:3025 stock. No Clans or ClanTech in my BTU.

[Abivard]

Fut, on 11 March 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

[/size]

Would it still be called an AC20 if it's only doing 16 dmg per round?

Yes, because it is an Auto Cannon, 20 centimeter bore.

The MG damage has changed more than once, as has all the missiles. laser damage has also been toyed with via beam duration and ticks. In fact, the only class of weapons that has been immune to damage adjustment are the Direct Damage weapons AC's,PPC's and Gauss, with Gauss of course they went to elaborate and magical means to make it less usable.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 11 March 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

I'm sure there's a lesson for PGI here somewhere... Hmm... What could it be?

For the record, the vast majority of my TT games are (and always has been) TRO:3025 stock. No Clans or ClanTech in my BTU.

That was a sweet generation of CBT.

[Almond Brown]

Quote

with Gauss of course they went to elaborate and magical means to make it less usable.

Funny thing is though, for those who do and can use the elaborated and magical Gauss Rifle(s), they still do 15 (30) damage and at very nice ranges.

[Willard Phule]

Almond Brown, on 11 March 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Funny thing is though, for those who do and can use the elaborated and magical Gauss Rifle(s), they still do 15 (30) damage and at very nice ranges.

True, but both applications (here and TT) have their own weaknesses.

The current flavor of dual gauss in MW:O requires an XL engine to pull it off...and I loves shooting me some side torsos on anything I detect with dual gauss.

In TT, unless it's got a Clan Targeting Computer (or the target is shut down), the odds of you piling 30 points of damage to a single location are pretty slim.....unless you've got loaded dice, that is...and even then, paritial cover can be a life saver.

Edited by Willard Phule, 11 March 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[stjobe]

Abivard, on 11 March 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Yes, because it is an Auto Cannon, 20 centimeter bore.

Yes, but not really because of that.

Autocannons are anything from about 30mm bore to 200mm bore; they also have widely differing rates of fire - some as low as a few rounds per burst, some as high as 100 rounds per burst.

It's a complex ecosystem of weapons, but what they all have in common is how much weight they throw down-range:
AC/20 throws 200 kg per BT turn (5 shots per ton, 1 shot per turn)
AC/10 throws 100 kg per BT turn
AC/5 throws 50 kg per BT turn
AC/2 throws 22.2 kg per BT turn down-range.

How those 200 kgs are distributed; which calibre, what firing rate, what burst-size, cassette size, whether it's continuous-fire or burst-fire, is up to the manufacturer.

How much damage 200 kgs of autocannon projectiles does is up to PGI.

What's so far true is that no autocannon ever described in lore has been a single-shot weapon, although the rules do allow for them to exist - but the situation which we have in MWO, where every single AC is single-shot is very, very, very far from lore. There's literally hundreds of autocannons described, and not even one has been described as anything other than burst- or continuous-fire.

Edited by stjobe, 11 March 2014 - 10:00 AM.