258 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

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Yes I want convergence:

And the devs have explicitly said you cannot have changes to the convergence system, as the engine can't handle anything beyond what we have now. You can fix weapons, but you can't fix them all hitting the same spot.

And it's not bloody hard. Change the way AC's/PPC's deliver damage to allow for it to spread over a moving target. .4-.6 duration bursts/streams of fire. Voila, they no longer chew through armor like a beaver on meth in a balsawood forest. That's all it takes. No fancy engine alterations, no damage reduction, heat changes, range changes, whatever. Do that, done.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 11 March 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

You mean the broken mechanics of 40 plus pinpoint FLD alphas, which GH didn't even fix. Just made fewer options available.

Its the PP that seems to really make it a compliant. Even if I can get great results firing on 2 triggers in a staggered fire. it is only when used to put it pin point that the crying is heard. I refuse to believe they cannot put a penalty in place that reduces convergence when Alpha striking. If they can put bonuses in place to make it work better how hard can it be to make it work less effective?

[Fut]

Abivard, on 07 March 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

A 20% ? reduction in damage per shot of all AC's, PPC's and ERPPC's is perhaps the best way to do this with out throwing something else way out of whack.

Would it still be called an AC20 if it's only doing 16 dmg per round?

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

Its the PP that seems to really make it a compliant. Even if I can get great results firing on 2 triggers in a staggered fire. it is only when used to put it pin point that the crying is heard. I refuse to believe they cannot put a penalty in place that reduces convergence when Alpha striking. If they can put bonuses in place to make it work better how hard can it be to make it work less effective?

The bonus is useless, has been for months. Its instantaneous currently, and if they made it progessive hit detection would suffer considerably.

They don't know how to fix the pinpoint, so we have to change the frontloaded aspect. You understand this.

Fut, on 11 March 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

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Would it still be called an AC20 if it's only doing 16 dmg per round?

Well, it's actually an AC70 at the moment, so yes, yes it could be called it, since it's wrong anyway. We have a 6 ton AC40 and a 12 ton AC40.

[wanderer]

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If they can put bonuses in place to make it work better how hard can it be to make it work less effective?

I think you missed the memo earlier in the topic.

The "Pinpoint" perk, which states it improves convergence actually does nothing whatsoever. It is a placeholder skill- you spend 3000xp for literally nothing except the 4th skill unlock to double your basics and open Master.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 11 March 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

The bonus is useless, has been for months. Its instantaneous currently, and if they made it progessive hit detection would suffer considerably.

They don't know how to fix the pinpoint, so we have to change the frontloaded aspect. You understand this.

i understand it its just stupid. I use FLD weapons cause that is how I have always played the game, fought my matches, and wield my weapons. I use Big blades cause I want a arm/head/leg lopped off now, not small blades to eventually bleed to death. I loved the 203 cause it blew up multiple enemies per grenade launched.

I practiced the 3" power punch so I could punch someone with almost a ton and a half of force.
Preferred hand gun 44 auto mag...
See a pattern here.

I like low TTK.

[Khobai]

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Would it still be called an AC20 if it's only doing 16 dmg per round?

Yes. Its still called an AC20 in MW3 even though it does 32.5 damage.

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 11 March 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

I think you missed the memo earlier in the topic.

The "Pinpoint" perk, which states it improves convergence actually does nothing whatsoever. It is a placeholder skill- you spend 3000xp for literally nothing except the 4th skill unlock to double your basics and open Master.

Yes I missed this memo. PGI really needs a different engine if they can't fix convergence with the one they have now.

[Fut]

Mcgral18, on 11 March 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Well, it's actually an AC70 at the moment, so yes, yes it could be called it, since it's wrong anyway. We have a 6 ton AC40 and a 12 ton AC40.

Hmm.. I'm sure you're doing some kind of magical maths there, but I don't follow...

AC20 = 20dmg per shot..... AC70?

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

Yes. Its still called an AC20 in MW3 even though it does 32.5 damage.

Did people whine about it in that game too?

[Mcgral18]

Fut, on 11 March 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

Hmm.. I'm sure you're doing some kind of magical maths there, but I don't follow...

AC20 = 20dmg per shot..... AC70?

Fire at 0, 20 damage, fire at 4, 40 damage, fire at 8, 60 damage and a half recycle at 10s. 70 damage, or 60 if you don't count the half recycle. An AC is rated by the damage it can do over 10 seconds.

The reason we have doubled armor is because PGI made weapons to 3 plus times the damage they are supposed to do.

[Khobai]

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Did people whine about it in that game too?

Nope, no one complained. Everyone understood they had to increase the damage on the AC20 in MW3 because it was such a garbage weapon in tabletop. The only way the AC20 could compete with boated medium lasers is if they significantly increased its damage, which is what they did.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

Nope, no one complained. Everyone understood they had to increase the damage on the AC20 in MW3 because it was such a garbage weapon in tabletop. The only way the AC20 could compete with boated medium lasers is if they significantly increased its damage, which is what they did.

AC20 was a garbage weapon on TT??? I don't remember hearing that ever during any Playtest forum meetings! I think you are mistaken sir.

[Khobai]

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AC20 was a garbage weapon on TT???

Yes for the same 14 tons you could have 14 medium lasers... which is 70 damage instead of 20 damage... and statistically youd do at least 20 damage to one location same as the AC20. And 14 lasers is only 42 heat, well within reasonable limits.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

Yes for the same 14 tons you could have 14 medium lasers... which is 70 damage instead of 20 damage... and statistically youd do at least 20 damage to one location same as the AC20. And 14 lasers is only 42 heat, well within reasonable limits.

And also have to have... 22 double sinks o use it all effectively. No offense but part of the game WAS designing a BETTER war machine, not a dumbass game breaker build!

[Reno Blade]

I made a post a while ago with the limits in mind (just change current values, no alternate fire like 5-burst).
Most of the changes were meant for ballistics, but it keept growing and I added nearly all weapons and values in a table to get the game away from the PP as much as usefull.

If you are interested, check it out here. It's more pictures and less text than most posts with this kind of topic.
http://mwomercs.com/...istic-tweaking/

[Khobai]

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And also have to have... 22 double sinks o use it all effectively.

If you wanted to run heat neutral. You could certainly run less than 22 DHS and be perfectly fine. Just dont alphastrike every turn.

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No offense but part of the game WAS designing a BETTER war machine, not a dumbass game breaker build!

The reality of custom battletech was that only three weapons were used: Gauss, PPC, and medium lasers. Typical custom mech construction consisted of cramming in 2-3 Gauss, 1 PPC, and as many medium lasers as you could.

Custom battletech was completely unbalanced which is why we played stock mechs only.

[Cimarb]

wanderer, on 10 March 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

Here's the thing. Right now, the AC isn't just a 12 pound sledge, it's this:

I sure wish MY atm card did that...

Sephlock, on 11 March 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

Is it really so much to ask that not every single mid-to-high level game go like this?

Ken/Ryun, the Original Gangstas of jump sniping!

Fut, on 11 March 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

[/size]

Would it still be called an AC20 if it's only doing 16 dmg per round?

On top of what Mcgral and others said, the 2/5/10/20 is the classification of the autocannon, not necessarily the damage it puts out. It is a simplified way of categorizing hundreds of different weapons by putting them into "buckets" based upon their damage output (DPS). In TT, the time frame they were judged upon was ten seconds (a turn). In MWO, a better timeframe would be 4-5 seconds, as every weapon can fire at least once during this time period.

If you take a five second time frame, you have four ACs that do almost the exact same damage - it's a spread of 15.6 to 25, I believe - which means we basically have four AC20 variants in the game, and that's it. See the link in my signature for a more detailed explanation (and proposed solution).

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

1)If you wanted to run heat neutral. You could certainly run less than 22 DHS and be perfectly fine. Just dont alphastrike every turn.



The reality of custom battletech was that only three weapons were used: Gauss, PPC, and medium lasers. Typical custom mech construction consisted of cramming in 2-3 Gauss, 1 PPC, and as many medium lasers as you could.

Custom battletech was completely unbalanced which is why we played stock mechs only.

1) If you can't fire all you got all the time you can't build!

2) That is the reality of YOUR custom BattleTech... I have Modified ever mech in the TT game through the 3075 TRO... and Silver and Blue were not the predominate colors

[Khobai]

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1) If you can't fire all you got all the time you can't build!

I disagree. Not taking advantage of being able to overheat slightly was poor mech construction. There are no significant penalties on the heatscale for overheating upto 7 heat. Its not until 8 heat that you suffer a to-hit penalty.

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That is the reality of YOUR custom BattleTech... I have Modified ever mech in the TT game through the 3075 TRO... and Silver and Blue were not the predominate colors

Well I suppose if you want to play an inferior mech... but battletech players should think like combatants. Which means using the best weapons available to them and not inferior ones. Gauss, PPC, and Medium lasers are the best three options for 3050 tech. As the tech level goes up more viable options become available, but most of them are 3058 or later for IS. And clan tech was generally excluded from custom games because of its blatant overpoweredness (gausszilla with 5 clan gauss rifles being a prime example).

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2014 - 07:34 AM.