258 replies to this topic

[IceCase88]

stjobe, on 12 March 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

I don't think anyone really wants to nerf pin-point accuracy; what most people seem to want toned down is the efficiency of the combination of
1. pin-point accuracy,
2. perfect convergence of multiple weapons onto that pin-point, and
3. instant delivery of all those multiple weapons' damage to that pin-point.

In fact, most people seem to prefer if weapons stay pin-point accurate, and damage done is spread out by some non-random mechanic - like e.g. burst-fire, beam duration, missile spread, or something else.

Spreading damage out in beams, bursts, or missile flights simulates random hit locations by a non-random mechanic; under perfect conditions - close range, stationary firer and target, sunny skies, and a fair breeze - you can still put all your damage in one location.

The problem with how ACs and PPCs work in the current system is that they also allow you to put all your damage in one location at extreme ranges, on moving targets, while moving at top speed yourself.

No other weapons can do this, and that's why some of us would like to see ACs changed to a burst mechanic (and PPC to beam duration or splash damage) - just to put them on equal footing with the other weapon systems.

If doing so means we'd have to further tweak their other characteristics, like damage, heat, range, etc, then so be it; that is a minor balancing issue. These weapons being superior through their damage dealing mechanic is a major balance issue.

I know it would be an unpopular move initially. However, it is the only way to achieve what everyone wants. All the QQing about pinpoint damage, weapons convergence, and weapons balance is probably sucking up too many resources. It is probably one of the main reasons content is continually delayed. It is the solution which would solve all the problems in one swoop and not really negatively affect the game. It would give them a chance to push content out and then they can revisit weapons convergence, weapons balance, and pinpoint damage. Not to mention solving hit registration issues. The mechanism is already set up with SSRMs so I imagine it would not be hard to implement for every weapons system. I am not a programmer though so it is just a guess.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 12 March 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

I don't think anyone really wants to nerf pin-point accuracy; what most people seem to want toned down is the efficiency of the combination of
1. pin-point accuracy,
2. perfect convergence of multiple weapons onto that pin-point, and
3. instant delivery of all those multiple weapons' damage to that pin-point.

In fact, most people seem to prefer if weapons stay pin-point accurate, and damage done is spread out by some non-random mechanic - like e.g. burst-fire, beam duration, missile spread, or something else.

Spreading damage out in beams, bursts, or missile flights simulates random hit locations by a non-random mechanic; under perfect conditions - close range, stationary firer and target, sunny skies, and a fair breeze - you can still put all your damage in one location.

The problem with how ACs and PPCs work in the current system is that they also allow you to put all your damage in one location at extreme ranges, on moving targets, while moving at top speed yourself.

No other weapons can do this, and that's why some of us would like to see ACs changed to a burst mechanic (and PPC to beam duration or splash damage) - just to put them on equal footing with the other weapon systems.

If doing so means we'd have to further tweak their other characteristics, like damage, heat, range, etc, then so be it; that is a minor balancing issue. These weapons being superior through their damage dealing mechanic is a major balance issue.

And some of us want it to stay like this because no other weapons can do it. How about instead of spreading the damage we look into lowering the amount of damage. I don't like this myself obviously, but I like it more than than turning ballistics into another laser.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 March 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

And some of us want it to stay like this because no other weapons can do it. How about instead of spreading the damage we look into lowering the amount of damage. I don't like this myself obviously, but I like it more than than turning ballistics into another laser.

I wonder how the game would go if they implemented some sort of hit system like they've got with the streaks? I mean, yeah, sure...you'd get a lot of grumbling about "when I aim at the CT and it hits the leg, then there's a problem"....but, as they tweak the mechanic to get the shots a little tighter to where the aim was, that would also group the SSRMs up a bit more. Huh. Just wondering, is all.

[Joseph Mallan]

I see it this way, the bullet flies in a straight line from when I pulled the trigger. So if I got jostled a bit my shot is going to go where I aimed. I also know that when I am aiming the universe has a way of making my shot a unique lil flower. I aimed for the head of our human silhouette target from the 500m line all the time... Still got crotch shots or edge of the target frame shots. Just saying statistics prove nobody is perfect... and the last guy that seemed to be was executed for it!

[Willard Phule]

It would certainly change the viability of some of the min/max builds we've got out there now.

All of a sudden, that dual AC20/Gauss Jaeger isn't quite as devastating as it was before. Not that it's not devastating...even if the guy's gotta shoot 4 or 5 times to take you down, you don't have the armor to keep up with that kind of a pounding for very long. Same with the PPCs or just about everything out there.

The only problem I have with a random hit mechanic is "point blank range." I mean, come on...if I put the muzzle of my AC20 against your rear CT and it hits your foot.....yeah. There's got to be a point where the whole pinpoint comes into play....long range ain't it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 13 March 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

It would certainly change the viability of some of the min/max builds we've got out there now.

All of a sudden, that dual AC20/Gauss Jaeger isn't quite as devastating as it was before. Not that it's not devastating...even if the guy's gotta shoot 4 or 5 times to take you down, you don't have the armor to keep up with that kind of a pounding for very long. Same with the PPCs or just about everything out there.

The only problem I have with a random hit mechanic is "point blank range." I mean, come on...if I put the muzzle of my AC20 against your rear CT and it hits your foot.....yeah. There's got to be a point where the whole pinpoint comes into play....long range ain't it.

I know those rolls Ok Im on your left, *rattle rattle* 9... Right torso! WTF???

In your scenario the shot needs to go where its touching!

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 March 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

And some of us want it to stay like this because no other weapons can do it. How about instead of spreading the damage we look into lowering the amount of damage. I don't like this myself obviously, but I like it more than than turning ballistics into another laser.

I'm trying to push for a little of both. I want my BFGatling, while you want your BFGun. So why not have a BFGat that does 25 damage with a 25 round burst over 0.5 seconds and a BFG that does 16-18 in a single slug? Now we both have what we want, they are relatively balanced, since I will be spreading damage over multiple sections or possibly even missing with some, and neither of us are forced to play it a certain way. Winner winner chicken dinner!

I absolutely do NOT want some silly random hit implementation, though. I am disappointed you guys would even suggest such a dumb idea, actually...

[Joseph Mallan]

Cimarb, on 13 March 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

I'm trying to push for a little of both. I want my BFGatling, while you want your BFGun. So why not have a BFGat that does 25 damage with a 25 round burst over 0.5 seconds and a BFG that does 16-18 in a single slug? Now we both have what we want, they are relatively balanced, since I will be spreading damage over multiple sections or possibly even missing with some, and neither of us are forced to play it a certain way. Winner winner chicken dinner!

I absolutely do NOT want some silly random hit implementation, though. I am disappointed you guys would even suggest such a dumb idea, actually...

cause sanding belongs in wood working. You would get what you want but I would be again left without my big honking hammer. I have gamed as the I cleaved you in half, put a hole the size of my head in you player for 32 years. I will not have some upstart tell me what is fun for me. And for the record, I played against every style of player for that many years as well. No one ever said, your style is not fair.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 March 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 March 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

cause sanding belongs in wood working. You would get what you want but I would be again left without my big honking hammer. I have gamed as the I cleaved you in half, put a hole the size of my head in you player for 32 years. I will not have some upstart tell me what is fun for me. And for the record, I played against every style of player for that many years as well. No one ever said, your style is not fair.

Who is saying your style is unfair or trying to get rid of your big honking hammer?... I said retain both, but tweak each to balance FLD vs spread/duration.

[Joseph Mallan]

Cimarb, on 13 March 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Who is saying your style is unfair or trying to get rid of your big honking hammer?... I said retain both, but tweak each to balance FLD vs spread/duration.

You have it though... its called an AC2. 9 shots in 5 seconds for 18 damage.

As for the dumb idea... go to the rifle range, fire 99 rounds through the first bullet hole... come back and discuss our stupidity then.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 March 2014 - 06:45 AM.

[Willard Phule]

I think you'll see both if and when they ever release the Rotary Auto Cannon. I do remember reading at one point that they intended to bring a lot of other weapons into the game. Maybe that'll be one of them.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 13 March 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

I think you'll see both if and when they ever release the Rotary Auto Cannon. I do remember reading at one point that they intended to bring a lot of other weapons into the game. Maybe that'll be one of them.

When the time is right it will be introduced. RAC5 is OK, its the Jam percentage that will cause a lot of whine... along with the higher volume of fire/damage.

[Lootee]

A system that could work is to add zones at the 'seams' where two hit locations meet. A hit there could have a random chance of hitting either location.

Example: the place where the CT and LT meets has a small strip of special hitbox. Say you fire an AC/20 and 2 PPCs and your aim was not good enough to hit squarely in the CT, but you hit this shared zone instead. 20 pts of dmg goes to CT and the other 20 to LT.

If you're an excellent shot you can still deal damage to the single component you wish, but the bar is raised. If your aim isn't good enough to hit dead center on the hit location, then you hit a seam where the damage can go into either part, it's your own fault for buggering the shot. This would spread damage around more like TT, yet keep gunnery skill as an important gameplay element.

It makes sense too. Fire a TOW II missile at a MBT facing you at a 45 degree angle. It hits somewhere between the turret and glacis. Who besides God knows which part of the tank will take the brunt of the damage? The turret? The glacis? Or is it a little to the side and it blows off a track instead?

The only issue I can see (besides PGI inability to implement such a system) is people might start aiming for legs only, but legs are usually in motion and losing a leg doesn't immediately kill a mech like losing a CT.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 13 March 2014 - 06:49 AM.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 March 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

You have it though... its called an AC2. 9 shots in 5 seconds for 18 damage.

As for the dumb idea... go to the rifle range, fire 99 rounds through the first bullet hole... come back and discuss our stupidity then.

An AC2 should not be doing the same amount of DPS as an AC20, but I think we agree on that. An AC2 should do roughly a tenth of the damage, but to roughly three times the distance.

You are confusing cone of fire for random, apparently. A cone of fire is what you are describing, but rolling dice to determine where a particular shot hits is random - to stick with your example, it would be like shooting your rifle at the same target with your eyes closed the whole time. Random doesn't belong here in any way, shape or form. Cone of fire would be acceptable, though.

[Joseph Mallan]

CoF, RNG I really don't care which they use As long as the reduce convergence.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 March 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

CoF, RNG I really don't care which they use As long as the reduce convergence.

I want it gone too, but I do care which way they do it. I can deal with cone of fire, and it makes sense, but implementing some sort of random system is game-breaking, IMO. If I wanted to roll dice, I would be playing the board game still.

[Joseph Mallan]

CoF>RNG>nothing at all to me, we are running parallel but on different tracks, that's cool. Lets hope for the CoF then!

[Malcolm Vordermark]

The PPC is really the only one I feel is a problem. I think ACs are pretty well balanced, especially the larger ones because of their weight, range, ammo count, and projectile speed.

Rather than trying to adjust the power of the PPC I would rather see more cost added for that power. In particular I'd like to see the deadzone range increased and maybe also a charge up similar to the gauss. I think that would give it its place on the battlefield but not be the go to weapon for all situations.

[Fut]

Willard Phule, on 13 March 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

The only problem I have with a random hit mechanic is "point blank range." I mean, come on...if I put the muzzle of my AC20 against your rear CT and it hits your foot.....yeah. There's got to be a point where the whole pinpoint comes into play....long range ain't it.

Or we can be reasonable for a change...
I don't think anybody has ever suggested that the Cone of Fire be so overly ridiculous as to allow something like this to happen.

It's more like if you're clipping along at 85km/h and you fire your AC20 at somebody's CT, it might end up hitting the RT instead.
To me, that's perfectly reasonable, and will make the game feel more realistic despite the slight random factor that the CoF introduces.

[TehSBGX]

Burst fire for ACs and beam duraion for PPCs seem to be the best option OP. While not everone would like the change, it still seems like a very reasonable comprimise.