79 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Ok so I've always had a nagging problem with MWO's pulse lasers. Before I dive into this keep in mind I know this isn't TT and things are different in an FPS game so things have to work a little differently for various reasons.

They way pulse works now is by simply changing the beam characteristic slightly. Instead of a steady constant beam, it's more of an MG style weapon with multiple bursts per shot. That's ok I guess but it really doesn't offer anything unique over regular lasers when it comes to trade-offs in choosing between the two weapon systems.

I've always felt they would be more useful and viable if the core mechanic worked differently. Right now the differences between pulse and standard are minimal at best for reduced range, extra heat, more weight.
R= Recycle Time
D= Damage
DPS= D per second
H=Heat
HPS= H per second
S= Slots
T= Tonnage
OR= Optimum Range (Hexes for TT stats)
MR= Max Range
L= Duration (Length of beam duration)
Cost = Cbills cost
N= N/A (Not Applicable)


MWO stats
R D DPS H HPS S T OR MR L Cost
Medium laser: 3 5 1.25 4 1 1 1 270 540 1 80,000
Medium Pulse: 3 6 1.67 5 1.39 1 2 200 400 .6 120,000


TT stats
R D DPS H HPS S T OR MR L Cost
Medium Laser: N 5 N 3 N 1 1 4-6 7-9 N 40,000
Medium Pulse: N 6 N 4 N 1 2 2 4 N 60,000


Ok now as I stated earlier direct translations from TT won't work for everything so please understand that I'm not saying "Well TT did it this way so we should have an exact replication of that here in MWO" I'm just wanting to show how the trade-offs in TT compared to MWO really make the pulse lasers here feel a little less "worth it" most times. They're not a very unique weapon.

Instead of the current mechanic I have always felt that reducing the beam duration and reducing recycle time slightly would make a huge difference in pulse viability. Instead of an MG type mechanic with multiple bursts I think they would be much more viable if they still had a single beam just a shorter duration. Include a slightly faster recycle time and essentially what you have is a slower energy version of the UAC.

The new recycle time would still make heat a major factor when using them but also give them an "edgier" feel in that when you're down an arm, your CT is almost cored, and that Atlas is bearing down on you, you can risk the heat to get more shots fired off and either take him down first or at least do enough damage to help out your team.

Now you have a pulse laser that fires faster, is heavier, has reduced range, and puts out a much higher potential DPS for more heat as trade-offs. I would start off by having the beam duration at about half that of a standard laser with a recycle time of 2.0. That means with three of them you could potentially have a true MG like effect for short periods of time before over heating. It would put them into a more unique category and help distinguish them as a completely different weapon system.

They would almost be like a "bridge" between ballistics and beams. You get a short beam duration which still spreads damage but has more of a pinpoint feel to it while having the benefits of instant hit of beams.

Weapon modules could be introduced that increased range for heat, heat for damage, all kinds of stuff. What do you guys think?

[Mordin Ashe]

I strongly agree with the reduction of beam duration and recycle time. I wouldn't mind cutting cooldown of MPL from 3 to 2 seconds and LPL from 3.25 to 2.5 seconds. If you don't change anything else, you have a great brawling weapon while not exactly breaking any balance. You can do more damage faster for a limited range, which is exactly what brawlers needs. You will pay the price though, because pulse lasers are very hot weapons meaning you can't boat them to the point of OP-ness. It is my hope that this change would be the reborn of brawlers, one doesn't see many of those these days and it is not a good thing because brawlers should be rock to poptart scissors. Two or three of such weapons and an AC/20 or a pack of SMRs could go a long way in their specific role while not actually breaking the balance.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Welcome to the bandwagon as to why pulse lasers in MWO are total shit. We've been saying basically what you just did in that they should be some type of hybrid gap between ballistic and laser, acting more like "Laser Machine Guns" as they are described in canon (Notable on laser AMS systems)

PGI only implemented them as a shorter beam duration standard laser because it was supposed to be a filler mechanic for later alteration. They never fixed them and this is why they are still shit.

[Deathlike]

I've kinda given up trying to come up with constructive suggestions with regards to pulse lasers multiple times.

I'll chalk this thread up to the "millionth thread about the same problem".

Previous Mega Pulse Laser Thread:
http://mwomercs.com/...-buff-feedback/

[Sandpit]

mwhighlander, on 09 March 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

Welcome to the bandwagon as to why pulse lasers in MWO are total shit. We've been saying basically what you just did in that they should be some type of hybrid gap between ballistic and laser, acting more like "Laser Machine Guns" as they are described in canon (Notable on laser AMS systems)

PGI only implemented them as a shorter beam duration standard laser because it was supposed to be a filler mechanic for later alteration. They never fixed them and this is why they are still shit.

This is the kind of post that doesn't help though. Keep in mind I'm not attacking you but hostile posts aren't going to get them to listen to ideas. We've (as in the community) have had some luck recently with getting PGI to listen to some ideas. I'd like to jsut kick around some ideas and get something going that a majority would like to see. We did it with Narc, so now lets try it with this weapon

Deathlike, on 09 March 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

I've kinda given up trying to come up with constructive suggestions with regards to pulse lasers multiple times.

I'll chalk this thread up to the "millionth thread about the same problem".

Previous Mega Pulse Laser Thread:
http://mwomercs.com/...-buff-feedback/

Dam, I'd have posted there instead. I'm usually better at catching existing threads before I start a new one. If need be I'll just quote my post here into that thread.

Regardless, I think if we keep a good open discussion civilly we can get them to listen to some of our ideas. You know me death, I'm an optimist

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Dam, I'd have posted there instead. I'm usually better at catching existing threads before I start a new one. If need be I'll just quote my post here into that thread.

Regardless, I think if we keep a good open discussion civilly we can get them to listen to some of our ideas. You know me death, I'm an optimist

Well, Paul killed the wubwub and I've been trying to wubwub him back since then.

I did write a few specific ideas in that thread and I'm more than willing to try anything that isn't a simply a reskinned poor man heavier regular laser that has a slightly better duration.

1) Lower the heat - seriously. That is the #1 reason I don't use them (LPL and MPL). Lower the heat of LPL from 8 to 7.5 (essentially, back to when Paul had them prior to the LPL-nerf of 2013 where heat was increased from 7.5 to 8.5 and damage of 10 to 10.6 due to "normalization" for the MWO Launch date aka "aggressive balance changes").

2) Increase the range - although this is specific to the SPL/SL. Increasing the range of the SL to 135 and SPL to 120 will at least give a reason to use them outside of light mechs (which even then, med lasers are more useful).

3) Duration adjustment - this is the most needed change. My suggestion was simple...
LL - 1.0s
LPL - .5s
ML - .8s
MPL - .4s
SL - .6s
SPL - .3s

This way, ever laser is differentiated.. heat will probably have to be adjusted, AND even the SPL has a role over the ML under certain circumstances. Numbers can be adjusted, but that is the overall goal of said change. All of these tweaks CAN improve the pulse laser series and somewhat justify their additional requirements over their regular laser counterparts.

[Sandpit]

I think the heat should be the main trade-off personally. You can have a higher damage output and increase the range but that heat is what gives it the biggest trade-off. You can't carry as many of them but increasing the RoF and cutting that beam duration down would still keep the DPS higher and the shortened beam duration would put more damage on a single location than a standard laser.

The extra weight would the other trade-off

By switching from a "chatter" style weapon it would be just like standard lasers but due to higher RoF and shorter beam duration it would make it much meaner while forcing players to carry extra heat sinks to compensate (then modules could be introduced to counter that stuff just like with other weapon system)

So (just purely for example purposes):

ML = 2 second beam 5 heat 3 damage and 3 second recycle
MPL = 1 second beam 5.25 heat 3 damage and 1.5 second recycle

It would fire twice as fast but increase heat which means carrying more heat sinks or more firing discipline. So an MPL in this example would actually do twice the damage but

ML fired 3 times = 9 seconds 15 heat 9 damage
MPL in same scenario = 9 seconds 31.5 heat 18 damage

It would produce twice the damage in a more pinpoint manner due to shorter beam duration but over twice the heat generated. That would prevent it from becoming OP, give it a unique and distinct function compared to standard lasers. You're basically getting twice the firing rate in that scenario for slightly more than twice the heat (not counting ghost heat if you don't chain fire, etc.)

Those numbers are purely an example but something along those lines would do wonders for pulse weapons in my opinion.

[process]

Compared one-to-one based on desirable/undesirable criteria:

Index = damage*range/heat/cooldown/slots/weight/duration, not including cost because it is immaterial on the battlefield.

Name Damage Heat Cooldown Range Max Range Slots Tons Speed Duration DPS HPS EHS Impulse Health Costs Value Index
ER LARGE LASER 9.00 8.50 3.25 675.00 1350.00 2.00 5.00 - 1.00 2.12 2.00 20.00 - 10.00 400000.00 21.99
LARGE LASER 9.00 7.00 3.25 450.00 900.00 2.00 5.00 - 1.00 2.12 1.65 17.00 - 10.00 200000.00 17.80
LRG PULSE LASER 10.60 8.00 3.25 350.00 700.00 2.00 7.00 - 0.60 2.75 2.08 21.00 - 10.00 350000.00 16.99
MED PULSE LASER 6.00 5.00 3.00 200.00 400.00 1.00 2.00 - 0.60 1.67 1.39 14.00 - 10.00 120000.00 66.67
MEDIUM LASER 5.00 4.00 3.00 270.00 540.00 1.00 1.00 - 1.00 1.25 1.00 10.00 - 10.00 80000.00 112.50
SMALL LASER 3.00 2.00 2.25 90.00 180.00 1.00 0.50 - 0.75 1.00 0.67 7.00 - 10.00 22500.00 160.00
SML PULSE LASER 3.40 2.40 2.25 90.00 180.00 1.00 1.00 - 0.50 1.24 0.87 9.00 - 10.00 32000.00 113.33

Based on this calculation, it's clear that the pulse-variants range from slightly worse (large pulse laser) to much worse (medium pulse laser). The general trend with laser weapons is that extra tonnage and heat of the larger weapons are major detractors, though this obviously doesn't take into account play style -- firing from range usually has the added benefit of keeping you alive longer.

Notice that the medium laser is somewhat of an anomaly, and probably the best weapon of the bunch. No surprise.

As it's been said before, I think PGI really needs to figure out:

1. Are laser weapons balanced, internally and compared with other weapon types? If they're using the medium laser as a base point, the answer is no.

2. What is the role of pulse lasers? Without much thought, I would probably keep the weight, range, slots and duration where they are, and adjust the damage, heat and cooldown.

3. Remove ghost heat.

tl;dr, pulse lasers could be better.

Post-script: seems like the devs probably need to balance autocannons internally first, since those seem to be the only weapons whose damage values haven't changed, and in keeping with the naming convention, probably won't. Cutting the maximum range down the 2x would be a great first step.

Edited by process, 09 March 2014 - 10:40 PM.

[Lupin]

I agree that pulse lasers Recycle Time & Duration (Length of beam duration) need to be reduced.
I see this type of weapon delivering damage like PPC as a bolt not a beam.
The balance for this current higher weight/heat and lower range.

Role for this weapon pin point damage for fast moving mech or hitting fast moving mech.

[Bobzilla]

I'd like them to go in the opposite direction. Make them a continual beam, that fires as long as you hold the button, lower the damage and heat accordingly so it keeps the same dps and hps. So it would kind of be like a MG, non stop firing.

[wanderer]

A normal laser actually is a series of pulses in MWO, discreet packets of damage. Pulses just have fewer and more high damaging ones, the mechanic is currently identical. Honestly, all you really need to do is shave a .25 off the cooldown or so and the pulse laser gets noticeably improved ROF, since it already has a shorter duration as is. Maybe even .5 , as right now they share the same cooldown as conventional beam lasers.

2.75/2.5/1.75 cooldown LPL/MPL/SPL would be a considerable improvement in performance.

[Stardancer01]

Brawlers need a short range, fast firing, cool weapon.
Why aren’t pulse lasers filling this role?
Because they are,

• hotter than standard lasers,
  
• fire only slightly faster,
  
• have to compete with regular lasers that are lighter and longer range.

[Mekwarrior]

+1 for making pulse lasers quicker to recharge.

[wanderer]

You already have a fast firing, cool running weapon. The problem is they're autocannons and short range is a myth for those.

Dropping the heat differential slightly between pulse and standard along with it would also make more of a difference- even fractionally. 9.8 heat for an LPL, 5.5 for an MPL, 3.2 for an SPL instead of the 10.6, 6.0, 3.4 we have now.

[Bhelogan]

One thing I haven't seen here, and maybe you can comment on it, normal lasers have one chance to crit, while pulse lasers have 1 chance per pulse to crit. Has anyone verified this?

[Bhelogan]

On another note: Consider the average damage per hit. Looking at my statistics I get this:

2.8 -ML
3.7 -MPL

5.28 -LL
6.83 -LPL

Note, most ACs actually do higher than their rated damage per hit. The Pulse Lasers however in general are doing about a point more damage per hit (which we should expect from their raw damage number). I don't know if this is because I hit more often with them, or am more prone to use them in range, or if it is the crit issue I mentioned in the post above. But this is something to consider when choosing which weapon to equip as well.

Edited by Bhelogan, 10 March 2014 - 06:05 AM.

[ScoutMaster]

The only reason why pulse lasers should ever be used is if you have extra tonnage and all your slots are taken.

But then your slots being taken by double heat sinks to support those retardedly overheating pieces of garbage make the whole thing pointless.

No but, seriously, what is PGi thinking? Do people suck so bad at aiming and keeping the laser on target that pulse lasers are even half worth it?


Don't even get me started on how medium lasers are always the best choice for an energy hardpoint anyways. Just equip a bigger ballistic or missile, and use energy for mediums.

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Dam, I'd have posted there instead. I'm usually better at catching existing threads before I start a new one. If need be I'll just quote my post here into that thread.

I'm glad someone had the nerve to post this

On a related note, I would certainly support this, although I would prefer a different mechanic altogether. I'm a fan of the MG-like laser, doing less damage but constantly. Perhaps a raising heat-bar to cut off excessive bursts (A-la MWLL UACs and RACs)

[Sandpit]

Lot of good ideas floating around. I'll try to respond and consolidate our ideas when I get home from work. I think we've got a good discussion going though!

[Grickshaft]

Bobzilla, on 10 March 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

I'd like them to go in the opposite direction. Make them a continual beam, that fires as long as you hold the button, lower the damage and heat accordingly so it keeps the same dps and hps. So it would kind of be like a MG, non stop firing.

i like this idea i was thinking of something you can 'pulse' yourself, and the longer you hold it down they possibly would get exponentially hotter after a 2 sec duration or so