97 replies to this topic

[Amsro]

Charons Little Helper, on 12 March 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

1.Long range weapons are supieror when mechs are clumped in groups.

2.Conquest forces mechs to move towards objectives & split up to some degree.

3.Therefore brawlers are better in conquest than they are in assault / skirmish.

4.In no way am I saying that sniping isn't still useful in conquest - but so is brawling.

1. How is my "ER Large Laser" (insert long range weapon here) more effective if the enemy team is clumped in a group?

2. Yes the winning team must split up to cap once the enemy cappers are nearly mopped up.

3. Uhh, again brawling weapons don't get a buff due to game mode. Placebo effect going on I presume.

4. There are more roles then just Brawler or Sniper.

Main point being, brawling weapons are no where near as effective as long range weapons due to weapon balance, no game mode fixes that.

Medium Laser
Medium Pulse Laser
Small Laser
Small Pulse Laser
LBX-10
SRM
SSRM
AC/20
Machine Gun

Main brawler weapons are saved by the Medium Laser and AC/20 (still kinda slow). The rest are so range limited its a joke.

[Mister Blastman]

DONTOR, on 12 March 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Really? your PPC doesnt suffer in a brawl... interesting.

PPCs do just fine if you can keep the enemy at 90m. Most of the time the enemy team is slow assaults or heavies... so no issue. The medium... by the time they get close they have their weapons blown off.

[Amsro]

Varent, on 12 March 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

its possible yes. who knows. all I know is so far its been quite enjoyable. It feels like what a mech battle should to me.

It's good when it's good, regardless of the reasons!

[Andross Deverow]

Brawling does happen a bit more now but... The problem is you cant plan on using any medium - assault mech that isnt packing a couple ballistic points if you plan on being able to compete. PGI has things geared to using ballistics. Someone on the development team really likes Dakka because at this point in time its soooo OP theres no reason to pilot anything that doesnt have Dakka hardpoints.

Regards

Edited by Andross Deverow, 12 March 2014 - 07:34 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

Amsro, on 12 March 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

1. How is my "ER Large Laser" (insert long range weapon here) more effective if the enemy team is clumped in a group?

Not if the enemy team is clumped.

If your team is clumped.

If a dozen+ ERLLs/PPCs hit the 1st enemy who sticks his head up - he's gonna be shredded.

If 2-3 ERLLs/PPCs hit the 1st enemy who sticks his head up - he's gonna be annoyed & keep closing.

Plus - the objectives mean that the long ranged mechs can't merely wait for the brawlers to come to them - they must go take objectives where brawlers may be waiting to ambush them.

Stop with the straw man arguments already.

[Varent]

Amsro, on 12 March 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

1. How is my "ER Large Laser" (insert long range weapon here) more effective if the enemy team is clumped in a group?

2. Yes the winning team must split up to cap once the enemy cappers are nearly mopped up.

3. Uhh, again brawling weapons don't get a buff due to game mode. Placebo effect going on I presume.

4. There are more roles then just Brawler or Sniper.

Main point being, brawling weapons are no where near as effective as long range weapons due to weapon balance, no game mode fixes that.

Medium Laser
Medium Pulse Laser
Small Laser
Small Pulse Laser
LBX-10
SRM
SSRM
AC/20
Machine Gun

Main brawler weapons are saved by the Medium Laser and AC/20 (still kinda slow). The rest are so range limited its a joke.

you missed ac-10 and uac, thouh I suppose they are questionable. also large and large pulse laser.

The point was that brawling is occuring often in this game type (I know because I enjoy it myself).

Also since the JJ nerf this seems to be alot more common overall as a whole.

Mister Blastman, on 12 March 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

The medium... by the time they get close they have their weapons blown off.

Not the good/smart ones.

Andross Deverow, on 12 March 2014 - 07:33 AM, said:

Brawling does happen a bit more now but... The problem is you cant plan on using any medium - assault mech that isnt packing a couple ballistic points if you plan on being able to compete. PGI has things geared to using ballistics. Someone on the development team really likes Dakka because at this point in time its soooo OP theres no reason to pilot anything that doesnt have Dakka hardpoints.

Regards

Not really the srm mediums still do very very well. Even with hit detection issues.

[Mister Blastman]

Varent, on 12 March 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Not the good/smart ones.

It is exceptionally rare these days to see a good/smart medium mech.

[Charons Little Helper]

Mister Blastman, on 12 March 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

It is exceptionally rare these days to see a good/smart medium mech.

Perhaps - but you can't argue balance upon the assumption that certain mechs will be piloted badly.

Any mech is bad if they're piloted badly.

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 March 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Come on Almond if every team had multiple roles Missile boats would be raining on the enemy while he advances saving him some precious armor. Them a long with his teams snipers poking players in the eye to keep em honest.

maybe it is just me Joe, but I see that exact thing happen all the time in MWO. Must just be an ELO thing I guess.

Only those who just can't or don't want to wait for that extra 30-45 seconds it takes for all that to get set up by the Team (gather, scouts and spotter out) are usually the ones having the problem described.

Those that do, at least I have found it to be that way, tend to find Missile, sniper and allied support. It is a 2-way street though Joe. Running off then QQ'ing there was no support is simply a poor players way.

Edited by Almond Brown, 12 March 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Charons Little Helper, on 12 March 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Perhaps - but you can't argue balance upon the assumption that certain mechs will be piloted badly.

Any mech is bad if they're piloted badly.

There is no argument regarding balance. It was settled a long time ago. PPCs+ACs are exceptional at both long-range and brawling. So good that they surpass traditional brawling setups heavy in SRMs and lasers. So good that they surpass traditional brawling setups heavy in SRMs and lasers and will continue to do so until direct-damage and pinpoint aim is addressed as well as SRMs being fixed.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 12 March 2014 - 08:46 AM.

[Amsro]

Varent, on 12 March 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

you missed ac-10 and uac, thouh I suppose they are questionable. also large and large pulse laser.

AC-10 yeah thats a miss as well as Large Pulse Laser. Neither overly impressive.

UAC/5 is long range, and even Large Laser works at range.

Sorry SRM's are waaay too unreliable to confidently take them into every match.

[Almond Brown]

Amsro, on 12 March 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

1. How is my "ER Large Laser" (insert long range weapon here) more effective if the enemy team is clumped in a group?

2. Yes the winning team must split up to cap once the enemy cappers are nearly mopped up.

3. Uhh, again brawling weapons don't get a buff due to game mode. Placebo effect going on I presume.

4. There are more roles then just Brawler or Sniper.

Main point being, brawling weapons are no where near as effective as long range weapons due to weapon balance, no game mode fixes that.

Medium Laser
Medium Pulse Laser
Small Laser
Small Pulse Laser
LBX-10
SRM
SSRM
AC/20
Machine Gun

Main brawler weapons are saved by the Medium Laser and AC/20 (still kinda slow). The rest are so range limited its a joke.

So how about we just ask PGI to place a MINIMUM range on all weapons that have >270m. That way Long range based weapons will suck inside "Brawling" ranges and "Brawlers" can be King within their own little Short and Medium courts.

Seems more than fair enough.

Short and Medium weapons are no good for "Long Range" combat. So we just make "Long Range" weapons suck or useless at Short and Medium ranges. If you Boat one or the other, you have to deal with the limitations right?

Sounds more than fair and Square right?

Edited by Almond Brown, 12 March 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Amsro]

Charons Little Helper, on 12 March 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

Stop with the straw man arguments already.

That's what I was thinking. Conquest may be the "best" option for brawling, but unfortuneatly, game/weapon balance say's brawling is still far from = to long range.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I'll keep my long range weapons, they are just as heat efficient and damaging as brawl weapons, with triple the range.

This means I can shoot a capper without fear of return fire at 600m+ then take the point at my leisure.
Or I can can contest the capture point knowing that my sniper weapons are just as effective as their brawler weapons.

I am glad that people feel they can take brawler weapons on conquest, but I don't see that game mode encouraging brawling weapons.I think that has to come from a better balancing of weapons.

[Amsro]

Almond Brown, on 12 March 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

So how about we just ask PGI to place a MINIMUM range on all weapons that have >270m. That way Long range based weapons will suck inside "Brawling" ranges and "Brawlers" can be King within their own little Short and Medium courts.

Seems more than fair enough.

Short and Medium weapons are no good for "Long Range" combat. So we just make "Long Range" weapons suck or useless at Short and Medium ranges. If you Boat one or the other, you have to deal with the limitations right?

Sounds more than fair and Square right?

Not a terrible idea but would lead to massive face hugging.

I'm think more along the lines of STOP nerfing brawling weapons. That might make sense. Maybe even buff a couple, cause you know close range should be scary.

Medium Laser 3 heat to 4 heat
Medium Pulse Laser +1 damage, double tonnage, +1 heat.
SRM 2.0, no splash, no pinpoint artemis, no hit detection (HSR)
AC/20 900m/s to 650m/s
AC/10 1100m/s to 950m/s
Large Pulse Laser... holy crap a buff! Down to 8 heat, still only marginally better then Meh.

Flamer still meh, MG is nice when stacked 3+.

[Charons Little Helper]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 12 March 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

I'll keep my long range weapons, they are just as heat efficient and damaging as brawl weapons, with triple the range.

No - they aren't.

The ERPPC, PPC, and ERLL are the three worst heat/damage weapons in the game - in that order.

The gauss rifle is heat efficient - but it's charge makes it relaly bad in a brawl.

The AC 5 is fine - but doesn't have the alpha for brawling. (need to torso twist away)

[Mister Blastman]

Amsro, on 12 March 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Not a terrible idea but would lead to massive face hugging.

I'm think more along the lines of STOP nerfing brawling weapons. That might make sense. Maybe even buff a couple, cause you know close range should be scary.

Medium Laser 3 heat to 4 heat
Medium Pulse Laser +1 damage, double tonnage, +1 heat.
SRM 2.0, no splash, no pinpoint artemis, no hit detection (HSR)
AC/20 900m/s to 650m/s
AC/10 1100m/s to 950m/s
Large Pulse Laser... holy crap a buff! Down to 8 heat, still only marginally better then Meh.

Flamer still meh, MG is nice when stacked 3+.

The original medium laser heat nerf in June of 2012 was the beginning of the end.

[Varent]

Mister Blastman, on 12 March 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

It is exceptionally rare these days to see a good/smart medium mech.

Sadly... yes... though... I dunno. I think alot of new players buy cheap medium mechs hoping for a good go between then just run around like a chicken with there head cut off giving them a bad name. The smart players are the ones usually running in a medium wolf pack making the jump snipers crap themselves as they hop over a hill and start laying waist to them.

[Varent]

Mister Blastman, on 12 March 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

There is no argument regarding balance. It was settled a long time ago. PPCs+ACs are exceptional at both long-range and brawling. So good that they surpass traditional brawling setups heavy in SRMs and lasers. So good that they surpass traditional brawling setups heavy in SRMs and lasers and will continue to do so until direct-damage and pinpoint aim is addressed as well as SRMs being fixed.

Ive never, ever experienced PPC being good at brawling... ever.... Ive always had players close the distance and then im regretting life. That said sure they have advantage at range. But from what ive seen so far with the nerf its equalized quite abit. With ac it depends. AC5 arent amazing, UAC it depends... some games you will feel lke a god some games you will stare at all your ac jammed. AC2 are abit of both... but any good player will usually roll the damage from an ac2 in a brawling situation over themselves then focus fire them down as they have to stare at you. I dont like ac10 myself... so I wont speak on it. the ac20 yes, is damn good at brawling. For the size, weight, speed, and ammo restrictions, it should be.

Amsro, on 12 March 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

AC-10 yeah thats a miss as well as Large Pulse Laser. Neither overly impressive.

UAC/5 is long range, and even Large Laser works at range.

Sorry SRM's are waaay too unreliable to confidently take them into every match.

I play with srms all the time. There not as bad as you think, trust me on that one. UAC5 is long range yes... but its used in brawling quite abit as a high risk high reward. so are large lasers. so maybe there both I suppose? And I agree there not overly impressive (ac-10 and l-plse) but I was just saying they are out there.

Amsro, on 12 March 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

That's what I was thinking. Conquest may be the "best" option for brawling, but unfortuneatly, game/weapon balance say's brawling is still far from = to long range.

2 weeks ago I would have said yes. Now... with the changes to JJ? Gonna have to disagree. The gaps have closed significantly.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Charons Little Helper, on 12 March 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

No - they aren't.
The ERPPC, PPC, and ERLL are the three worst heat/damage weapons in the game - in that order.

The ER Lg Laser generates 2.0 Heat/Second (8.5 heat burst), does 9 damage at an optimal range of 675m
vs.
Medium Laser with 1.0 Heat/Second (4 heat burst), that does 5 damage at an optimal range of 270m


I have no reservation about taking and ER Lg Laser into close combat, it is only 1 damage less than 2 medium lasers, but with 2.5x the range for the same Heat/Second and only a single energy hardpoint.