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12V12 Vs. 8V8


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#1 SmallPaws

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 11:12 PM

As of now PGI believes they have balanced or alleviated the issue of groups by increasing the number of players on each team. Another issue that arises due to this increase in players is increase in damage that one side can output in a given amount of time (i.e. direct fire weapons that are primarily burst damage). As an example of this, there are plenty more matches than before where being caught out in the open means death for many slower assaults regardless of ecm/ams coverage, while 8v8 matches assaults stood a chance traversing through the terrain, lights capable of scouting, or assaults deciding on a strategic push. I may not have statistics, but I can tell you that placing my head around the corner to advance on an area, and dying IMMEDIATELY upon even seeing the first enemy with 90CT armor is a huge problem. Even now 200CT armor may not be enough to multiple enemy onslaughts. More and more matches have become poptart oriented and more burst oriented making for select weapons optimal in these situations. For any assault player, that is a HUGE letdown being unable to advance in a certain area because there are too many mechs on either side making any advancement practically impossible. This was rarely the issue back when 8v8 was the limit and assaults could manage advancing in the face of half the enemy team (4 players). Given the increase in players per team, an assault cannot be caught out in the open against half the enemy team (6 players). Choosing half the team is arbitrary, but the overall increase in damage is more than substantial to take down one mech in shear seconds.

One point I'd like to make and stress on in regards to this matter is that increasing the number of anything tends to SYNERGIZE. That is a keyword that I will be re-using and to great extent because of it's importance. PGI and many other game companies fail to understand this single important factor in balancing any game: that more of one thing does not increase it's capabilities by a proportional factor and tends to increase it by a disproportionate factor. I'll give an example that many in this game can understand. Given that a player pilots a mech of a certain weight chassis, and the enemy uses the same chassis for sake of balance (assuming the mechs are balanced in that weight class as well), then we can assume facing one opponent is relatively and strictly fair. Now two opponents and immediately there is a synergistic effect. They may be dealing twice the damage, but in effect many other factors, such as the pilot now facing twice the armor, twice the heat efficiency, etc., makes the match as effective as facing an opponent with three times the weapon power, heat efficiency, armor, hardpoints/components, etc. That is SYNERGISM. A battle against one might take ~2 minutes given that it is strictly balanced, now turns into a battle that takes ~30 seconds.

To give another example on a more strict and direct approach is an arbitrary mech chassis. Let's say that a mech has an arbitrarily average torso twist speed and can mount an also arbitrarily average damaging weapon. If that mech were underwhelming and PGI decides to buff, let's say the torso twist speed, that weapon is much much more effective than before, what was before a miss now becomes a shot on-target, laser weapon retention times are increased substantially, the capability to lock onto a moving target now also substantially increased.

This applies more often than not due to how often a single mech can be left alone, as well as in confrontations, a single mech may decide to spot or be the forefront of a strategic push and face upon a wall of 12 enemies as opposed to only a max effective of 8 before, making scouting and advancing much less viable than before.

In effect, increasing the number of players may have lowered the proportionate number of players communicating, but this additionally increases the synergistic fighting capabilities of both sides. By increasing the number of players, PGI employed the lack of communication as a balancing mechanic. To me and many other players that is a stupid move on their part, and quite literally at that (using ignorance to balance the game). What I consider a feature they NEED to implement rather than plainly increasing the number of incoherent pugs to balance is the implementation of VIOP. This is a feature that WILL solve the communication issues... is communication capabilities within this game. This game has already gone into release as they claim it to be but let it be me to point out, and I'm not certainly the first, that the lack of communication in this game is pivotal point in which I consider the game to be in it's beta stages, or as of now I call it gamma testing, along with MULTIPLE other features still abhorrently missing from this game.

From how it may be seen, increasing the number of incoherent players was an utter lazy method of delaying VIOP, with other negative consequences that should never be a part of this game. Those negative consequences are nerfs to weapons that may not need to be nerfed. Case in point: A PPC MAY, and quote, MAY be fine without the additional heat. Due to the increasing cases of poptart, PPC's have gotten the nerf hammer simply because more than one mech may be using it. A single team may have 15 PPC's in total. Does that make the PPC an overpowered weapon? Not necessarily. It may be balanced as it is if an individual mech were to use it and strictly observing that individual mech, but now consider a total of 15 PPC's on one team. Within certain circumstances, that's 150 damage, maybe spread, maybe on point. Whether on point or not any single mech does not have the capability to fire with an alpha of 150, but collectively 12 mechs are capable of doing so with little issue with heat management and little downtime between shots. Increasing the number of players also leads to boating rather than diverse mech loadouts due to this synergistic effectiveness. Lower team numbers although will have cases of boating, will be rarer the case so. Given the lower number of players on a single side players will have to consider being capable of dealing damage at multiple ranges and multiple circumstances. With the increase in number of players, individuals begin to assume that the variability of the whole team choosing one-weaponed boating is lessened, and will begin to boat themselves believing that other mechs will account for the other ranged/scenario circumstances and from what we can see, it has been truer the case where players are boating PPC's and ballistics or even LRM's but much less the case so.


To me, the ideal game as of now is 4v4 both capable of communicating and weight balanced.

Edited by SmallPaws, 10 March 2014 - 11:30 AM.


#2 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 11:33 PM

View PostSmallPaws, on 09 March 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

To me, the ideal game as of now is 4v4 both capable of communicating and weight balanced.


Me too. My hope is eventually PGI will allow for gamemodes that force teams to split into 4v4 to win and the blob will struggle containing this more than it does now.

#3 Psikez

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:46 AM

I want to go back to wasting enemy teams solo in 8v8 too

#4 Lupin

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:20 AM

More mechs (or guns) on the field of battle does not mean a better game. More turrets in Assault mode is a good example.

I would like to see game modes that use smaller teams.
Also would like to see the return of Solaris or maybe team Solaris?

#5 5th Fedcom Rat

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 03:35 AM

Game was definitely more fun and more strategic (in the sense you could more reliably keep track of the flow of battle and the two side's strengths) when it was 8 vs. 8. Everything started going downhill in this game around April last year when they switched to 12 v 12, added horrible maps like Tera Therma and Canyon, and let ppc jump sniping get way out of hand.

#6 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 03:40 AM

8 vs 8 was so much better and allowed for so many more tactical options than the deathball of doom everybody does in 12 vs 12. Besides, most maps are just too small for 12 vs 12.

#7 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 03:41 AM

View PostLupin, on 10 March 2014 - 02:20 AM, said:

More mechs (or guns) on the field of battle does not mean a better game. More turrets in Assault mode is a good example.

I would like to see game modes that use smaller teams.
Also would like to see the return of Solaris or maybe team Solaris?

So long as its an option and not the focus. I came to fight the Clans in a grand long running campaign. I have no interest in tournament MechWarior except to feed my ego.

#8 fandre

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 03:45 AM

I would like to see 16vs16 or even more. But I also suggest to make the MM whole tonnage based with flexible number of players on each side.

Maybe they can make the number of players map dependent. Larger maps with more mechs, smaller maps with less ... or randomized if they go crazy.

Edited by fandre, 10 March 2014 - 03:47 AM.


#9 Mycrus

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 04:11 AM

24v24 just like they advertised

#10 Roughneck45

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:32 AM

TL/DR

So the first paragraph was basically "I don't like that I can't walk into a firing line without being killed"

The second was "Fighting 2 mechs is harder then one cause' SYNERGY"

Three says "torso twist is good"

Four says "It's harder to YOLO push your pugs to victory against 12 mechs than it was 8"

Five says "it's harder to communicate with 12 players than it is 8"

Six says "12 players is to cover up no VIOP/weapon balance/boating"

The only thing 12v12 did was make it harder to carry a game by yourself. It didn't effect weapon balance, boating, or anything else. We had all those problems in 8v8 too. Remember the guass cat? The very first "boat" to dominate the game, right out of closed beta.

Having separate queue's for 4v4, 8v8, and 12v12 would be pretty epic though.

#11 AlmightyAeng

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:36 AM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 09 March 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:


Me too. My hope is eventually PGI will allow for gamemodes that force teams to split into 4v4 to win and the blob will struggle containing this more than it does now.


Can you imagine if your sensors only picked up information from your LANCE?

#12 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:37 AM

I would like some of the smaller maps to be 8v8. Forest colony in particular.

#13 Vanguard836

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:41 AM

Wasn't there a time when some people begged for 12 vs 12 ?

#14 CeeKay Boques

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:44 AM

I feel as though Terra Therma would be very interesting at 24v24.

#15 SmallPaws

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:57 AM

View PostRoughneck45, on 10 March 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

TL/DR

So the first paragraph was basically "I don't like that I can't walk into a firing line without being killed"

The second was "Fighting 2 mechs is harder then one cause' SYNERGY"

Three says "torso twist is good"

Four says "It's harder to YOLO push your pugs to victory against 12 mechs than it was 8"

Five says "it's harder to communicate with 12 players than it is 8"

Six says "12 players is to cover up no VIOP/weapon balance/boating"

The only thing 12v12 did was make it harder to carry a game by yourself. It didn't effect weapon balance, boating, or anything else. We had all those problems in 8v8 too. Remember the guass cat? The very first "boat" to dominate the game, right out of closed beta.

Having separate queue's for 4v4, 8v8, and 12v12 would be pretty epic though.


1) Assaults are called assaults for a reason, and not being able to strategically push makes for ranged niched warfare as we all now see more or less.

2)True, but you may have not fully understood synergy. Let me rephrase your misinterpreted statement: "Fighting two mechs is harder than fighting one mech with twice the firepower, weapon capabilities, speed, armor." That is true synergy. Anyone can understand fighting two mechs is harder than one, dummy.

3)That's a direct and arbitrary example of another synergism in weapons systems.

4) It's not necessarily a YOLO push, although it could be and generally may be. But even for controlled well-communicated teams, a push is not viable at all and leads to the next issue:

5) I have not stated whether or not it was harder or easier for that matter, the ability to communicate between 12 or 8 players. That's not the issue. There is more obviously a lack of communication OVERALL between any number of players over 4. Whether it is harder is SOLELY based on how well that team communicates and NOT based on the size. An example of this may be that one particular leader may be able to verse quickly and readily a strategy capable of being understood by 24 players even. That is solely the ability of that particular strategist and not relevant to lack of communication in this game.

6) That may or may not be PGI's intention but it has the side effect of something they deemed positive which is not inherently so. That's a very rough and misdirected interpretation of my argument. To reiterate what you have missed and altered, boating is not the issue. The increased number of players allows for boating to occur, which in itself may or may not be an issue.

The ability of carrying a team is the whole point. We would like SKILL-BASED gameplay rather than moshpits with people bring the highest alpha or ranged sniper fights with players bringing the most PPC/AC.
And that gauss cat is still under review by PGI and is drastically different from how it was in beta.

View PostVanguard836, on 10 March 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Wasn't there a time when some people begged for 12 vs 12 ?


Yes, but I didn't see the advantages at the time other than "more balance because less communication" argument. Oh and because "MOAR MECHS HURR DURR 1337PRO R4MP4G3 ARGGHAHHERHKAJDSKA"

Edited by SmallPaws, 10 March 2014 - 12:01 PM.


#16 Roughneck45

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:45 PM

Everything you are blaming 12's for existed in 8v8.

Assaults not being able to walk into a firing line existed before 12's. It being harder to fight 2 mechs at once existed before 12's. Communication problems existed before 12's. Boating problems existed before 12's.

The only thing turning 8v8's into 12v12's did was make it harder to solo carry a game. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing can be endlessly debated, but PGI thinks it is a good thing and encourages team play.

What 12's did not break is everything else you stated. Those problems are all caused by different issues.

No need for name calling either. If you want to be treated like an adult act like one.

#17 B1zmark

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:57 PM

Moving from 8v8 to 12v12 made it harder to have a full group of people drop. The number of teams who can get get 12 people is incredibly small - 8 was already a push.

8v8 is far more sustainable in terms of a team game with clans/guilds who drop together.

#18 Roughneck45

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:58 PM

View PostB1zmark, on 10 March 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Moving from 8v8 to 12v12 made it harder to have a full group of people drop. The number of teams who can get get 12 people is incredibly small - 8 was already a push.

8v8 is far more sustainable in terms of a team game with clans/guilds who drop together.

Very true.

Probably the biggest impact 12v12 made too, that no one seems to care about.

#19 BlackDeathLegion

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:18 PM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 09 March 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:


Me too. My hope is eventually PGI will allow for gamemodes that force teams to split into 4v4 to win and the blob will struggle containing this more than it does now.


Agreed!

For example, Game Mode ATTACK/DEFEND.

Each Team has a:

Base: (Turrets/walls that Defend said Base)

Power Plant: (Located long ways from the BASE, it provides Power to the Bases Defenses. Thus take out the Power Plant,
Enemy Base's Defense's are powered down. Base would be DEFENSELESS!)

Supply Convoy: (Trucks containing Ammo, Fuel, Parts,etc. Needs escort and protection from being destroyed or captured from Enemy)

As you can Imagine... now mechs like the Locust can use its SPEED to play a specific role in taking down the Power Plant, so the Heavies and Assaults can attack the Enemy Base/Mechs!

You now have to SPLIT UP your Forces SMARTLY (thinking mans Shooter RIGHT?) to MULTI-TASK during the Match!
My above Idea would add FUN AND TACTICs to MWO.
Something these current and utter Boring Game modes are LACKING right now!

Edited by BlackDeathLegion, 10 March 2014 - 01:20 PM.


#20 SmallPaws

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 03:16 PM

View PostRoughneck45, on 10 March 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

Everything you are blaming 12's for existed in 8v8.

Assaults not being able to walk into a firing line existed before 12's. It being harder to fight 2 mechs at once existed before 12's. Communication problems existed before 12's. Boating problems existed before 12's.

The only thing turning 8v8's into 12v12's did was make it harder to solo carry a game. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing can be endlessly debated, but PGI thinks it is a good thing and encourages team play.

What 12's did not break is everything else you stated. Those problems are all caused by different issues.

No need for name calling either. If you want to be treated like an adult act like one.


1) Assaults are having a much harder time with the increase in players. Of course no assault should stay in firing range for long, but if it is necessary and in many cases it may be so, then it has become increasingly more difficult to move from a location due to the increase in available burst damage from the increase in team sizes.

2) It has always been hard to fight 2 mechs, but there is an INCREASE in mechs making it much more difficult to advance anywhere, making current matches stalemate poptarts/meta builds. Now that we're facing possibly 3 opponents, 4, or 5 at a time which was a much less occasional occurrence in 8v8, it becomes nearly impossible to deal sufficient damage or merely to survive.

3) Boating has always existed yet 12v12 has allowed for boating to be much more viable and the norm due to the variability of niche boatings accounting for and compensating for the lack of diversity in an individual mech.

4) Solo carrying a game is affected by the changes in team sizes for the reasons I mentioned above and whether PGI believes this solo-carrying is allowable or not, I and many other believe to some extent that the game should have a decent level of basis on skill rather than one-sided stomps of luck-of-the-pug-draw.

What I'm explaining and many of you may seem to be misinterpreting is that these problems have existed before 12v12, but 12v12 allows for much more instances of these problems to arise, leading to meta-type gameplay. Diversity exists in smaller sizes where diversity is needed.
Otherwise:
And I don't care as to how you treat me. I would prefer that you not misinterpret and redirect my argument in a manner opposing mine without example or explanation.

Edited by SmallPaws, 10 March 2014 - 03:25 PM.






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