67 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Outlaw, on 11 March 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

So the real question is why does this cost more than any of the Assault Champions when it doesnt even come with the XL engine of the stock 3D? Seriously id rather spend 3955 MC on a standard 3D that way i at least can get the XL engine to sell. I think whoever thought this one out screwed up when coming up with the MC figures by being lazy and just adding a little bit onto the stock 3D's price tag.

Based on MATH, the formula for EVERY Champion mech is +25% MC of the BASE PRICE of the original mech that it is based off.

That is why the Cataphract-3D Champion's price is absurd, since the original build has an XL engine.

[Outlaw]

Then i think they should use one of the other variants MC price and add the 25% to that since they run the STD 280 engine. Either way its going to bomb horribly and i dont see anyone buying it as the increase in XP really isnt worth the price tag.

[Deathlike]

Outlaw, on 11 March 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Then i think they should use one of the other variants MC price and add the 25% to that since they run the STD 280 engine. Either way its going to bomb horribly and i dont see anyone buying it as the increase in XP really isnt worth the price tag.

You would get a better ROI on just buying the Muromets, than the Cataphract-3D Champion.

[Suicidal Baby]

WarHippy, on 11 March 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

1 jumpjet after the jumpjet changes seems silly.

nothing wrong with 1 JJ on a heavy at the moment. it works quite well. The real problem is the load out and the price, which is damn pathetic.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Let the community build the champions.

Edited by Suicidal Baby, 11 March 2014 - 10:21 AM.

[no one]

You know, the CTF-3D is universally regarded as the best cataphract variant. If the build had been even marginally less terrible these would have sold like hot-cakes. Seriously, show of hands guys, who would buy this 'Mech if you got a useful XL engine out of it and a "main" gun that's not the butt a running joke.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8e83393d80f6f60

Edited by no one, 11 March 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

Napes339, on 11 March 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

And it was voted by the community!

I did try it out before buying a CTF-3D... it really isn't anything spectacular

Deathlike, on 11 March 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

My actual question is this: WHERE?

I would have voted it down 10 times over. It doesn't even begin to explain how bad it is.

WarHippy, on 11 March 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

That is a good question. Where do these votes take place?

The FIRST Champion mech was voted on by the community.

No other votes or community input was made for the following champions. not even on twitter.

[N a p e s]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

My actual question is this: WHERE?

I would have voted it down 10 times over. It doesn't even begin to explain how bad it is.

I'm trying to find the link to the Community Build Challenge from early last year. The Dragon 5N(C) was actually voted for and so I assume that it isn't any different for the Cataphract-3D. Just need to find the list of builds

Regardless, there was a whole "competition" where people posted builds. It wasn't quite clear what it was for until the Champion mechs popped up and the builds they were using were from that challenge.

[Deathlike]

Here's something to think about.

I'm not saying the Awesome is great, but one were to create a 9M Champion, the projected cost for such a Champion would be 5770 (this is 4615 * 1.25, rounded up the nearest 5 or 0). This would literally cost as much as a Pretty Baby... w/o being the Pretty Baby...

If a Cicada-3M Champion was added, its projected MC cost would be 3550! This would already be greater than the X5 Hero...

As an aside, minus the JJs, if such a build were put together on the the Cataphract-1X, its MC cost would be 2985.

Just ponder that for a moment.

Napes339, on 11 March 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

I'm trying to find the link to the Community Build Challenge from early last year. The Dragon 5N© was actually voted for and so I assume that it isn't any different for the Cataphract-3D. Just need to find the list of builds

Regardless, there was a whole "competition" where people posted builds. It wasn't quite clear what it was for until the Champion mechs popped up and the builds they were using were from that challenge.

The Challenge for the Dragon-5N happened and I remember it quite well. It's EVERY MECH after that that hasn't been voted on since to my knowledge.

[BlackDeathLegion]

QQ more folks! ROFL

I wont be buying this mech for MC. So nothing effects me at all!

I will offer a suggestion though, PGI should've switched some weapons around!

Put the Large Lasers in each Arm.
Put the Medium Lasers in each L/R side torsos!

Group #1 Both Large Lasers
Group #2 Both Medium Lasers & LB10x (LB10x is MOST effective up to around 270m same range as the Medium Lasers, makes Sense to group the 3 together)
Group #3 LB10x

I feel at least these would HELP out the newer players better than how this mech is currently built.

[N a p e s]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

The Challenge for the Dragon-5N happened and I remember it quite well. It's EVERY MECH after that that hasn't been voted on since to my knowledge.

I assumed they'd all been "finalists" during the Build a Trial but it doesn't seem to be the case afterall.

http://mwomercs.com/...y-edition-poll/

The CTF-3D that had been selected dropped the engine rating down and replaced the LBX10 with an AC20. The actual champion may have been in the finalists for the 3D spot but I haven't found proof of that.

[Deathlike]

Napes339, on 11 March 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

I assumed they'd all been "finalists" during the Build a Trial but it doesn't seem to be the case afterall.

http://mwomercs.com/...y-edition-poll/

The CTF-3D that had been selected dropped the engine rating down and replaced the LBX10 with an AC20. The actual champion may have been in the finalists for the 3D spot but I haven't found proof of that.

All I'm going to say is those. Those "voted mechs" were strictly heavies. So what happened then is not a consequence now. Please stop trying to dig on that. It's irrelevant now.

Now, if you had been reading AtDs, one of things that was said about such contests was that they were "planning" or "thinking about" doing this on a "quarterly basis" (a community vote on builds). Of course, nothing of sort happened. The Champions AFAIK are supposedly "community used builds" according to PGI's metrics (and if you hadn't questioned them before, then I'm not sure what to tell you). All I can say is... someone's tallying said metrics incorrectly.

[Modo44]

Any competent player can come up with better builds -- both easier to use, and stronger in most fights. Heck, ask the folks who won the friggin' tourneys. They will tell you what works when you play solo and to win.

[RamsoPanzer]

1 JJ for this build is more than enough. Just see the loadout, is not a sniper, it doesnt need more JJs. The JJ just gives more mobility in order to jump obstacles. Dont complain if u have no idea.

P D : The build sucks, yes.

Edited by RamsoPanzer, 11 March 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[Jman5]

It's not a terrible loadout. You wont be on par with a competitive jump sniper build and you certainly can't play it like one, but you can do alright with that set up.

If I had to tweak this loudout, I would probably do something more like this. That way I could poke out from the side and get most of my damage out without exposing my entire body. Ammo in the CT is just asking for trouble. I don't see the point other than to artificially create a weakness in the build. I downgraded the engine slightly to add a little more room for armor and I took the DHS out of the engine to create more item buffer from crits.

My hotkeys would probably be 1: LLs, 2: LB-10x, 3: MLs, 4: arm lasers, 5: All the lasers

Edited by Jman5, 11 March 2014 - 03:16 PM.

[Modo44]

Jman5, on 11 March 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

It's not a terrible loadout. You wont be on par with a competitive jump sniper build and you certainly can't play it like one, but you can do alright with that set up.

You won't be on par with anything sporting an AC10, an AC20, Gauss, or dual <insert any small AC>. The LB10-X is literally the worst AC in the game right now.

[N a p e s]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

All I'm going to say is those. Those "voted mechs" were strictly heavies. So what happened then is not a consequence now. Please stop trying to dig on that. It's irrelevant now.

Now, if you had been reading AtDs, one of things that was said about such contests was that they were "planning" or "thinking about" doing this on a "quarterly basis" (a community vote on builds). Of course, nothing of sort happened. The Champions AFAIK are supposedly "community used builds" according to PGI's metrics (and if you hadn't questioned them before, then I'm not sure what to tell you). All I can say is... someone's tallying said metrics incorrectly.

Yep, my bad.

Anyways... I don't think I'd ever seen this build on a Phract until a couple days ago when it became the trial So as you said it is surprising since its supposedly one of the most used build (according to the metrics).

Also, price is ridiculous.

[Monky]

The design and pricing seem like a cry for help from people who barely understand they game they're working on. Just my honest opinion.

[POWR]

Yea, they should've just put XL engine in and as many PPCs as it could carry and gone "lol we built a ridiculous poprtartboat that's no fun to play for you because that's what you all want lololol", and you would've all cried even more, because then it would have been "pay to win". Good game people, good game.

Maybe once in a while consider that it might be fun to try something different. Instead of whining about something, especially when you can just switch it around to something else if you don't like it.

Edited by POWR, 11 March 2014 - 01:33 PM.

[Falconium]

Gotta say, that's alot of hate from ppl who don't even care about buying the 'Mech.

And the build? This is the build I always used to run in my 3D (though dropping 1 DHS for an extra JJ) before I started packing a 2xGauss jump-sniper. So many ppl say the LB10X is a useless weapon, but I have got to disagree! Low heat, good critical chance, fast cooldown, the shotgun effect, and 1 fewer ton/slot than the AC10.
Alot of ppl say put the LLs in the arms for the tracking ability; no way! They're in the torso for a reason, and that's for the height compared to the arms; the arms on the Phract are just way too low to put primary weapons in.
It's true this build is not on par with the current jump-sniping meta; but nothing but a jump-sniper can truly face off with a jump-sniper. And do you seriously think a 2xGauss Cataphract-3D would have been a better choice for a trial 'Mech than this? New players do NOT know how to run a Gauss cannon, not with the new charge on it. (Witness the trial Dragon; that was a laugh, seeing so many newbs just ignoring their cannon arm because they couldn't get the stupid Gauss to fire when they wanted it too!)
I think the proper point to be made here is that this is a trial 'Mech for new players to use, more than it is intended for old veterans to buy just because it's a Champion. New players need a build that they'll be able to run and learn with, and frankly, this is it. Lasers as opposed to PPCs, because you have a window of opportunity during which to correct missed shots, so as not to lose all your dmg --- LB10X as opposed to an AC10 because of the spread, again, so new players who can't hit the broad side of a barn can blast this thing in the enemy's face and hopefully get a few pellets to hit --- a single JJ, not because it's intended to jump-snipe, but because it lets them get used to how JJs work.

At this point in the game, Champions are really intended to train new players; and that's what this 3D build is designed for.
(And to those who say the Stalker Champion was anything but designed for new players, I disagree. It was designed to train new players in LRMs, which frankly aren't the meta anymore, but that doesn't matter as lots of ppl still love running them, and they still have an important role to play in the game. In any case, the Stalker Champion build is fine, in my opinion; it's one major flaw, as noted by someone else, is that it carries an XL engine, which is kinda normal for LRM boats. Witness the AWS-8R LRM-60+A boat, with an XL300, that everyone raves about. XL works fine in a dedicated LRM boat, so long as the player understands how to position himself so as to be out of harm's way. Also, the fast XL engine can be considered an advantage for a trial 'Mech because it provides lots of speed, something that trial 'Mechs, being that they have no Speed Tweak, tend to be lacking in.)

Regarding the price, yes it's insane, but as explained by Deathlike, they merely followed the formula they've used for all the Campion 'Mechs. Of course, obviously that formula doesn't work very well for alot of 'Mechs (basically any 'Mech that comes stock loaded with an XL engine will be insanely overpriced). So what they should really do is simply have a formula similar to the one they use to price Heros, where it is based on the tonnage of the 'Mech, rather than what is loaded on it.

[Monky]

POWR, on 11 March 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Yea, they should've just put XL engine in and as many PPCs as it could carry and gone "lol we built a ridiculous poprtartboat that's no fun to play for you because that's what you all want lololol", and you would've all cried even more, because then it would have been "pay to win". Good game people, good game.

Maybe once in a while consider that it might be fun to try something different. Instead of whining about something, especially when you can just switch it around to something else if you don't like it.

Nobody's asking for another JJ poptart, but a competent build would be nice.

Falconium535, on 11 March 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

*snip*

1. Shotgun effect is not a benefit, being less accurate does not help in any situation unless you just cannot aim at all.
2. LL's in the arms or you can't aim at anyone above you beyond 300 meters and expect to do anything. Enjoy Alpine with those mediums.
3. The people who are complaining are people who probably otherwise would have been interested in a 3D with an experience bonus but don't want to have to buy an XL to make it workable, even with this crappy build.
4. It didn't take into account the JJ nerf, it has ammo in the CT, it doesn't provide anything really worthwhile for a newbie to learn with and cripples them with an LBX cannon that you'd have to know is a crit seeking weapon that loses effectiveness dramatically at range due to spread. It is simply poorly designed.
5. None of this matters, you thought the stalker champion was also good for newbies. Sorry man, you're wrong. You don't have to white knight and you can admit when the devs make a mistake. Also, who raves about an awesome with LRMs? No one!
6. None of this is an attack on you, just pointing out what should be obvious.