38 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

If i was sure i would not have asked for a confirmation. I remember having read it on Sarna somewhere.. Probably listed among the Totem 'Mechs.. And after all, why would it not be ?

[Pariah Devalis]

Well, it is a remarkably powerful mech. Does TRO totem mech status convey some sort of advantage? If so, might be a matter of balance that it was omitted there.

[BLOOD WOLF]

SMDMadCow, on 11 March 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Being named after a clan does not qualify it as a totem mech, just a mech with a spiffy name.
Tell me how it would emphasize a core value of the Nova Cats it oit were not named Nova Cat.
Cite me a canon source that states it as one.

are you serious man?

[Lucian Nostra]

SMDMadCow, on 11 March 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Its not a totem mech and looks nothing like a Nova Cat. If it were a totem mech, it would say so in its TRO entry, which it does not.

"Following Clan Nova Cat's defeat at Tukayyid, that Clan began talks with the Draconis Combine. Khan Severen Leroux at the same time ordered the construction of a new heavy omnimech. Built to protect the clan both militarily and spiritually, the design was christened Nova Cat, imbuing it with the spirit of the clan."

Well ****.. it's only in the first paragraph talking about the mech in the TRO.. I mean sure it's not a totem mech soley in the aspect that it LOOKs like the totem animal, but it's what the clan embodies, long ranged beam weaponry. Both the primary with it's 2 ERPPCs and 3 ER Large Lasers, and Alt A with quad Er LL + Targeting computer support this. The other variants are mission specific.

"The Clans made numerous scientific advances during the Golden Century, with the Nova Cats proving no exception. Their scientist caste perfected ER Laser technology, introducing the Clan-spec ER Large Laser in 2823. Combined with their skill with accuracy, this gave the Nova Cats an unmatched combat force until this technology had spread through the rest of the Clans. The Nova Cats maintain a preference toward energy weapon based designs to this day."

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 11 March 2014 - 05:02 PM.

[Craig Steele]

SMDMadCow, on 11 March 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Over half those mechs dont belong on that list and is one of the few places Sarna is innacurate.

OMFG, I can't believe there is another person in the forums who knows ands appreciates that while Sarna is a good source, it is not canon and prone to inaccuracies. My faith in mankind is restored

Pariah Devalis, on 11 March 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

A cursory examination of the interwebs rapidly brings up that this is an extremely convoluted issue. There are the tro biblethumpers who require TOTEM MECH in the rules description and then there is the general DEFINITION of a totem mech, that being "Totem BattleMechs represent a Clan or faction's spirit, concept or totem-animal on which they were founded." Note the "or" in there. Definition wise, looks alone do not make a totem mech.

For me this is the key issue. The word "Totem' has certain implications to me and based on those, the totem aspect is linked to the Clan's culture as well as it's physical appearance. After all, not every Indian Totem pole looked like an Indian right, they were interpretive to a degree.

Where I personally draw the line is that some Clans (or houses by the Sarna definition) have more than one totem mech. To me that just invalidates the concept. Have something that stands for what you believe in and incorporates your soul, but we have a back up soul just in case?

SMDMadCow, on 11 March 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

You assume wrong, I remember when the 3060 TRO when t first came out and got a copy of it that day and have been reading and re reading it for a while. What stands out is that the same TRO has the Mandrill and Fire Scorpion, both of which specifically stated to be Totem mechs. I figure id the Nova cat was intended to beo e it would be stated as so also, with it being in the same publication. I will double check when I get home, but it seems to me if the authors had wanted it referred as a totem mech, they would have called it one from the very beggining.

Yup, That TRO was when the concept of Totem mechs was truly fleshed out. In game terms the totem mech provided no additional benefits but in RP sense, there was significant honour attached to piloting a totem mech even it it was an inferior design.

In Clan Wolf for example, the Orion IIC (arguably a totem mech because it goes to the heart of their "Blood of Kerensky" stance was never declined by any pilot if it was issued to them, even giving up Assault Omni mechs to accept the honour of an Orion IIC.

Similarly with the Mandrill.

[SMDMadCow]

Lucian Nostra, on 11 March 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

"Following Clan Nova Cat's defeat at Tukayyid, that Clan began talks with the Draconis Combine. Khan Severen Leroux at the same time ordered the construction of a new heavy omnimech. Built to protect the clan both militarily and spiritually, the design was christened Nova Cat, imbuing it with the spirit of the clan."

Well ****.. it's only in the first paragraph talking about the mech in the TRO..

And in that same TRO Page page 140:
The Madrill was the first of the so called totem Mechs designed to resemble a Clan's totem anmial.
The pride of piloting the Clan's totem makes their Mechwarriors perform at their peak, as well as spurring their comrade to top performance. Detractors also point out that totem Mechs create prime targets for enemy fire.

And page 168:
As one of the TWO genuine totem Mechs (alongside the Mandrill), deployment of the Fire Scorpion is controversial

Check that out, theNova Cat is on page 174 of that TRO and not labeled as a totem mech in the book that first defines and introduces the totem mech. It is a good mech? Yes, very much so. Is it a totem? No, but all the Nova Cat fanbois are getting their panties in a twist over the truth.

[Craig Steele]

SMDMadCow, on 11 March 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

And in that same TRO Page page 140:
The Madrill was the first of the so called totem Mechs designed to resemble a Clan's totem anmial.
The pride of piloting the Clan's totem makes their Mechwarriors perform at their peak, as well as spurring their comrade to top performance. Detractors also point out that totem Mechs create prime targets for enemy fire.

And page 168:
As one of the TWO genuine totem Mechs (alongside the Mandrill), deployment of the Fire Scorpion is controversial

Check that out, theNova Cat is on page 174 of that TRO and not labeled as a totem mech in the book that first defines and introduces the totem mech. It is a good mech? Yes, very much so. Is it a totem? No, but all the Nova Cat fanbois are getting their panties in a twist over the truth.

So I checked the source you have quoted and concur. Canon specifically says in the same handbook as the Novacat mech is detailed that there are only "two" Clan totem mechs (the Mandrill and the Fire Scorpian).

I know there are totem mechs built subsequently but the Novacat being a totem mech looks a difficult point to argue given that they are all detailed in the same TRO.

The Thunder Stallion is also interesting as it specifies the mech was to be a totem mech, but Hells Horses "de-emphasized the totem aspect in favour of more combat effectiveness", which while not specified could be attributed to the thinking of the Nova Cat Khans, pure speculation on my part there.

I still think that if a House or Clan has more than one totem mech, none of them are totems.

Anyone got a subsequent canon source updating the list of totem mechs?

EDIT, thinking about this, your highlighting is not definitive to your argument.

the first of the so called totem Mechs designed to resemble a Clan's totem anmial.

Taking the full sentence states this was the first, but it does not discount the possibility of totem mechs NOT appearing as the Clan's totem animal either before or after.

Not that I am disagreeing with your overall sentiment, but I just think it's worth noting this particular sentence does not dismiss the possibility.

Edited by Craig Steele, 11 March 2014 - 08:16 PM.

[Zerberus]

SMDMadCow, on 11 March 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Over half those mechs dont belong on that list and is one of the few places Sarna is innacurate.

And Ironically, they forget thone of the most iconic mechs, which is also my obvious choice for favorite totem mech:

Clan Wolf`s Timber Wolf

While not "officially" a totem mech, what other designation would one apply to a mech built only by one clan, in one facility, and used extensively within that clan? And the Warwolf, the "official" totem maech of a leter era, was designed specifically to replace the Timber Wolf...

So for me it`s semantics whether it`s the Wolf Totem or not.

Edited by Zerberus, 11 March 2014 - 08:25 PM.

[Hutijin]

Not sure if an Omnimech... But in Battletech, we always loved and feared the Stone Rhino...

[Craig Steele]

Zerberus, on 11 March 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

And Ironically, they forget thone of the most iconic mechs, which is also my obvious choice for favorite totem mech:

Clan Wolf`s Timber Wolf

While not "officially" a totem mech, what other designation would one apply to a mech built only by one clan, in one facility, and used extensively within that clan? And the Warwolf, the "official" totem maech of a leter era, was designed specifically to replace the Timber Wolf...

So for me it`s semantics whether it`s the Wolf Totem or not.

Well, no one in Clan Wolf thinks it is and they have fought more trials with better outcomes to protect the Orion IIC second line mech than they have the Timberwolf.

Timberwolf is reasonably common in other clans which kinda makes it hard to be an 'exclusive" mech.

But does it matter, a totem badge or not doesn't change it's awesomeness

[Strum Wealh]

SMDMadCow, on 11 March 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

And in that same TRO Page page 140:
The Madrill was the first of the so called totem Mechs designed to resemble a Clan's totem anmial.
The pride of piloting the Clan's totem makes their Mechwarriors perform at their peak, as well as spurring their comrade to top performance. Detractors also point out that totem Mechs create prime targets for enemy fire.

And page 168:
As one of the TWO genuine totem Mechs (alongside the Mandrill), deployment of the Fire Scorpion is controversial

Check that out, theNova Cat is on page 174 of that TRO and not labeled as a totem mech in the book that first defines and introduces the totem mech. It is a good mech? Yes, very much so. Is it a totem? No, but all the Nova Cat fanbois are getting their panties in a twist over the truth.

Craig Steele, on 11 March 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

So I checked the source you have quoted and concur. Canon specifically says in the same handbook as the Novacat mech is detailed that there are only "two" Clan totem mechs (the Mandrill and the Fire Scorpian).

I know there are totem mechs built subsequently but the Novacat being a totem mech looks a difficult point to argue given that they are all detailed in the same TRO.

The Thunder Stallion is also interesting as it specifies the mech was to be a totem mech, but Hells Horses "de-emphasized the totem aspect in favour of more combat effectiveness", which while not specified could be attributed to the thinking of the Nova Cat Khans, pure speculation on my part there.

I still think that if a House or Clan has more than one totem mech, none of them are totems.

Anyone got a subsequent canon source updating the list of totem mechs?

EDIT, thinking about this, your highlighting is not definitive to your argument.

the first of the so called totem Mechs designed to resemble a Clan's totem anmial.

Taking the full sentence states this was the first, but it does not discount the possibility of totem mechs NOT appearing as the Clan's totem animal either before or after.

Not that I am disagreeing with your overall sentiment, but I just think it's worth noting this particular sentence does not dismiss the possibility.

Does that then mean that those 'Mechs that might meet some of the criteria but do not resemble the Clan's namesake are not "genuine" Totem 'Mechs?
Are they then... "faux Totem 'Mechs"?

[Craig Steele]

Strum Wealh, on 11 March 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Does that then mean that those 'Mechs that might meet some of the criteria but do not resemble the Clan's namesake are not "genuine" Totem 'Mechs?
Are they then... "faux Totem 'Mechs"?

I don't see it as definitive in that sense.

The TRO specifically says that at that time, there were only two totem mechs (by the Clans definition of what a totem mech is) and given the Nova Cat is in that same TRO, it looks to be a hard argument that the Nova Cat is defined as a totem mech according to that same standard.

Broadly I would say that Clans designed those other mechs to suit their style of combat, so of course there will strong similarities between the Clan custom and the mech (eg, the laser favouring of the Nova Cat) but the highlighted sentence neither proves nor disproves the presence of totem mechs that were not resembling a totem animal. It just says that was the first that did.

My thought process is that totem mechs have a place in Clan Culture, so why would a Star Adder or Cloud Cobra not have one at some stage. If there was a compelling enough cultural reason (and the two presented suggests there is) then a snake shaped mech is not something the construction rules allow.

Ergo, there may be an argument for a totem mech NOT shaped as the totem animal, perhaps just the head or some such style accordingly. The discussion point would be, is the cultural identity of a totem mech a compelling enough reason for the resources.

[LastKhan]

Nova Cat pretty much is a totem mech due to lore and etc.. The legs do look quite feline like come to think of it and I'm sure that when its time comes around, it too will go under Alex's or any of the artists remake and will be slightly different.

They can just add like vents on the top of its head to look like cat ears if we want to go by "its gotta look like the animal to be a totem mech" thing. Hell, i can draw you a couple of Nova Cat head remakes for you if you like.

[Craig Steele]

lastkhan, on 11 March 2014 - 11:36 PM, said:

Nova Cat pretty much is a totem mech due to lore and etc.. The legs do look quite feline like come to think of it and I'm sure that when its time comes around, it too will go under Alex's or any of the artists remake and will be slightly different.

They can just add like vents on the top of its head to look like cat ears if we want to go by "its gotta look like the animal to be a totem mech" thing. Hell, i can draw you a couple of Nova Cat head remakes for you if you like.

LOL, Well that may be true, but in a canon sense if the book says there is only 2 and the Nova Cat is not one of the two, then the lore is probably not on your side.

It is a solid Mech, and for good reason its loved by Nova Cat warriors, but totem mech might be an internal Clan designation, not on supported in Lore. I'll leave that up tot he Nova Cat Khans to debate

[Thorn Hallis]

Is the Eagle the totem 'Mech of the Free Worlds League then?

[LastKhan]

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

LOL, Well that may be true, but in a canon sense if the book says there is only 2 and the Nova Cat is not one of the two, then the lore is probably not on your side.

It is a solid Mech, and for good reason its loved by Nova Cat warriors, but totem mech might be an internal Clan designation, not on supported in Lore. I'll leave that up tot he Nova Cat Khans to debate

Why cant there be both? Totems with look alike structures and those that were designed to be totem? In this case the Nova Cat was exactly designed for such a purpose. The legs on it should be enough since i think its the only mech til much later with that legs type. Tis silly to argue anyways since they will all be remade to be whatever by PGI.

And to not continue to derail the thread ill say the Kodiak is my #1 favorite cause next to the Atlas it would most definitely instill fear into enemy players.

Edited by lastkhan, 12 March 2014 - 09:45 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

lastkhan, on 12 March 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

Why cant there be both? Totems with look alike structures and those that were designed to be totem? In this case the Nova Cat was exactly designed for such a purpose. The legs on it should be enough since i think its the only mech til much later with that legs type. Tis silly to argue anyways since they will all be remade to be whatever by PGI.

And to not continue to derail the thread ill say the Kodiak is my #1 favorite cause next to the Atlas it would most definitely instill fear into enemy players.

Actually, the leg structure (and overall body structure) Nova Cat (much like the Mongoose) is more faun-like than anything else...







(Also, it's surprisingly difficult to find good not-NSFW pictures of fauns and satyrs...)

[LastKhan]

yea this may be the case if there is a Clan Satyr, but this is what it is.

Edited by lastkhan, 12 March 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[Vanguard319]

Getting back on topic, my favorite is the Jade Hawk, who doesn't want a 75 ton mech that runs like a light, and is absurdly deadly in close quarters combat?