34 replies to this topic

[wildj]

Koniving, on 13 March 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

Here, the threshold rises with every heatsink we add. It allows us to ignore the 30 threshold limit because instead of set in stone it slides up and down with how many heatsinks we have.

This is consistent with the TT rules. During the heat phase, you add all of the heat that your mech produced through weapons fire and movement (as well as any environment modifiers if you are playing with advanced rules.) Then you take that number and subtract the number of heat sinks you have on your mech. The remaining number is your heat for the next turn. Heat effects and modifiers aren't applied until after this subtraction. I don't see how this is any different than what is simulated in MWO.

[Koniving]

wildj, on 13 March 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

This is consistent with the TT rules. During the heat phase, you add all of the heat that your mech produced through weapons fire and movement (as well as any environment modifiers if you are playing with advanced rules.) Then you take that number and subtract the number of heat sinks you have on your mech. The remaining number is your heat for the next turn. Heat effects and modifiers aren't applied until after this subtraction. I don't see how this is any different than what is simulated in MWO.

You're missing the real time element. In real time, those modifiers would be applied in real time as you climb the scale. It's impossible to go back in time and apply them as they occur. Hence why in Mechwarrior 1 (Battletech 1989), Mechwarrior 2 (the original PC version), and Mechwarrior 3 the heat threshold was 30. You hit 30, you shutdown. And across ten seconds you cool off the heat appropriate to your heatsinks.

Example if you had 10 SHS, you generate 4 medium lasers of heat (3 each) that's 12 heat.
You fired them at once, okay. 12 heat. Since ML are fired instantly and the heat spike is instant in those games, you hit 12 heat. That's 40% threshold. With 10 SHS, you're sinking 1 heat per second.

Whats the tabletop result? 2 heat at the end of the turn.

0 seconds, fired 4 ML.
1 second, sunk 1 heat. 11 heat remaining. 36.666666666667%
2 seconds. sunk 1 heat. 10 heat remaining. 33.333333333333%
3 seconds. sunk 1 heat. 9 heat remaining. 30%
4 seconds. sunk 1 heat. 8 heat remaining. 26.666666666667%
5 seconds. sunk 1 heat. 7 heat remaining. 23.333333333333%
6 seconds. sunk 1 heat. 6 heat remaining. 20%
7 seconds. sunk 1 heat. 5 heat remaining. 16.666666666667%
8 seconds. sunk 1 heat. 4 heat remaining. 13.333333333333%
9 seconds. sunk 1 heat. 3 heat remaining. 10%
10 seconds. sunk 1 heat. 2 heat remaining. 6.666666666667%

Now, what's our result? 2 heat remaining. 6.67% threshold.

Of course, as you hit 40% heat, you would apply that in real time. But applying it during the turn summary that it happened is impossible due to the limitations of the game. Otherwise you'd have to play every single turn at least twice, redo all the rolls, it's a freaking nightmare.

For what you're saying to be true in a real time environment... Then here's the result.

Fire 6 4 ML at 3 heat each.

At some point in time fire 4 ML.
0 seconds, 0 heat.
1 second, 0 heat
2 seconds, 0 heat
3 seconds, 0 heat
4 seconds, 0 heat
5 seconds, 0 heat
6 seconds, 0 heat
7 seconds, 0 heat
8 seconds, 0 heat
9 seconds, 0 heat
10 seconds, add 12 heat from weapons fired, 0 heat due to no movement, subtract 0.1 cooling (SHS) * 10 = 2 heat unsunk.

Notice what's missing from that? The real time element. No one would ever overheat. I'd probably fire my weapons about 60 times over before seeing the heat ever come up and not even know why I overheated.

To overheat, I'd have to fire 10 ML.
-----------
What happens in MWO is this.

You fire your 4 medium lasers, which is 4 heat here, and this happens.

0 seconds, 4 ML, = 16 heat = ? threshold....

Lets find out.
Without any 'skills' unlocked, 10 SHS mech we have a threshold of 40. Check this if you doubt it.
So back to it now..

0 seconds, 4 ML, = 16 heat = 40% of 40 threshold.... We're already a little inconsistent with tabletop with threshold but the heat is the same. But let's keep at it! Our cooling rate is unchanged from tabletop with SHS.
1 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 15 heat remaining. By all rights it should be 36.666666666667% heat now. But instead I'm at 37.5% heat....
2 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 14 heat remaining. 35%.
3 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 13 heat remaining. 32.5%.
4 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 12 heat remaining. 30%
5 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 11 heat remaining. 27.5%
6 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 10 heat remaining. 25%
7 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 9 heat remaining. 22.5%
8 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 8 heat remaining. 20%
9 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 7 heat remaining. 17.5%
10 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 6 heat remaining. 15%.

So instead of 6.67% heat we're at 15% heat. But is this the laser's fault with its higher heat?

Well with higher heat per ML, if I fired 10 ML I'd hit 40 heat. But why was it necessary to raise the heat in the laser? Especially when subsequent lasers in the large category keep getting reduced heat (7 instead of 9, 7.5 instead of 11, 8.5 instead of 12)? Even the AC/20 has reduced heat (6 instead of 7)?

Especially when we add in pilot skills, such as the 20% bonus Heat Containment gives to your threshold once you elite the mech? That raises the threshold to 50 for 10 SHS. That means I'd have to fire 13 ML at once to shutdown.

So what would happen if the ML heat was at its normal levels?
Remember we're in MWO so I have to hit 40 to shutdown.

0 seconds. ML heat at 3. 4 ML fired. 12 heat generated.

1 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 11 heat remaining. By all rights it should be 36.666666666667% heat now versus tabletop. 27.5% instead.
2 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 10 heat remaining. 25%.
3 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 9 heat remaining. 22.5%.
4 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 8 heat remaining. 20%
5 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 7 heat remaining. 17.5%
6 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 6 heat remaining. 15%
7 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 5 heat remaining. 12.5%
8 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 4 heat remaining. 10%
9 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 3 heat remaining. 7.5%
10 seconds, sunk 1 heat. 2 heat remaining. 5%.

So, we got the tabletop result here. 2 heat remaining. But it's 5% heat. Not 6.67%...

It's not working out. It's not the same system. It's similar. But then you hit where it really matters. High damage, high heat weapons.

MWO's weapons keep getting buffs in this regard, all the high damage weapons are much higher damage than tabletop. Their heat is significantly lower.

• But why is that?
  
  • Because cooling is slower.
• Why is cooling slower?
  
  • Because people would fire them all at once.
• Why are they firing them all at once? Heat should stop that!
  
  • Because thresholds rise and are not hard set.
• Why do thresholds rise, they never have in any previous MW game and even tabletop can be broken down to find out exactly what time index in the 10 seconds each weapon had to fire to make the cooling work as specifically laid out in the rule book?
  
  • Because MWO used a different interpretation which comes from the simplified version of just looking without understanding that allowed for exploitation.
• But can't an Awesome fire 3 PPCs at once in tabletop?
  
  • No, it can't. It fires them in sequence, one at a time. The pattern is easiest as 0 seconds (fire 1), 2 seconds (fire the second), anywhere between 3 and 6 seconds (fire the third), wait and cool the rest. To prove this, name one instance in tabletop where all 3 shots hit the same body part. It never happens.
• But that's because there's no convergence or pinpoint in tabletop.
  
  • So why is there in MWO?
• Um...
  
  • Well then.

Edit: Noticed a typo where I had 6 ML instead of 4.

Edited by Koniving, 14 March 2014 - 03:10 PM.

[Koniving]

Let's use a 200 rated engine Hunchback with 15 DHS.

The tabletop system.
30 threshold. Period. Then heatsinks = cooling.
15 DHS * 2 = 30 cooling per turn (10 seconds)
15 DHS * 0.2 = 3 cooling per second.

While you can hammer in lots of firepower over time, no matter what you do the most you can hit in a single spike is 30 and you shut down. This means no spamming of high heat weapons. No nasty alpha strikes. This means even with 10 DHS, the best you're gonna get out of twin AC/20s is 3 trigger squeezes with MWO's 4 seconds between shots.
This means you fire 2 ER PPCs at once, you shut down.
This means you fire 3 PPCs at once, you shut down.
This means you boat 6 LRM-15s you shut down in a single strike.

The MWO system.
To find threshold...
30 threshold + (8 engine DHS *2 = 16) + (7 added DHS * 1.4 = 9.8) = 55.8 threshold.
To find cooling.
(8 engine DHS *2 = 16) + (7 added DHS * 1.4 = 9.8) = 25.8 coolign per 10 seconds.
(8 engine DHS *0.2 = 1.6) + (7 added DHS * 0.14 = 0.98) = 2.58 cooling per second.

55.8 threshold. Know what that means?
You can move at full speed and fire 5 PPCs at once.
You can churn out twin AC20s even with the old 300 % more heat punishment of ghost heat.
You can fire 6 LRM-15s.. and then fire 6 more in order to overheat. Specifically you could fire 11 LRM-15s at once. Just to hit overheat, assuming you even could!

That's the difference. It's the reason we needed heat scale (ghost heat) in the first place.

Sure, in both systems over time if you chain fired you can accomplish those scary results... But in a properly converted tabletop akin to the mechwarrior 3 and mechwarrior 1 games, you'd never, ever be able to "alpha strike" and get away with it with every single shot.

*Takes a bow and slips back to his game design project.* Btw. Platform games suck. Hand drawing frame by frame animations sucks even more.

[Koniving]

Oh and forgot, add 15% more cooling to MWO for elite mechs and 20% more threshold.
That same terrifying MWO combination becomes...
75.8 threshold.
2.967 cooling per second. 7 PPCs at once? Sure thing bob! Let's rock and roll!

[luxebo]

Bhelogan, on 13 March 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

And don't forget the quirky application for AC2s

They have ghost heat though.

[Buckminster]

Koniving, on 13 March 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

...heat discussion...

Another thing we're missing is penalties for running high heat. Starting at a heat of 5 you'd take a movement penalty, starting at 8 you'd get hit penalties, shutdown became a possibility at 14 and ammo explosions were possible at 23. It wasn't a simple "shutdown at 100% heat with no penalty otherwise".

I always remember the old routine with the Warhammer - fire both PPCs for 3 or 4 turns, and then you'd have to just fire one to bring your heat down before the penalties really kicked in.. Instead we have people riding at hear shut down with no real ill effects.

[Lightfoot]

Alpha Strike fires all your weapons with one button press. Not all your lasers or all your ACs as this is called a Group-Fire.

Drawbacks of an Alpha-Strike is high heat (although not necessarily PGI's Ghost Heat) and high weapon spread since each weapon has an different travel time.

So the ideal time to use an Alpha Strike is on a stationary mech, the closer the better. Conversely, do not be that stationary mech at close range.

[Lightfoot]

Buckminster, on 13 March 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Another thing we're missing is penalties for running high heat. Starting at a heat of 5 you'd take a movement penalty, starting at 8 you'd get hit penalties, shutdown became a possibility at 14 and ammo explosions were possible at 23. It wasn't a simple "shutdown at 100% heat with no penalty otherwise".

I always remember the old routine with the Warhammer - fire both PPCs for 3 or 4 turns, and then you'd have to just fire one to bring your heat down before the penalties really kicked in.. Instead we have people riding at hear shut down with no real ill effects.

Yes. And these penalties need to replace Ghost Heat and DHS 1.4. PGI's solutions are not simulation based and MechWarrior has to function like a simulation no matter what.

Edited by Lightfoot, 13 March 2014 - 07:45 PM.

[Void Angel]

Sargon X, on 12 March 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Thanks. I knew it was probably a dumb question!

No stupid questions, only stupid inquisitive people - and you don't count.

[Void Angel]

wildj, on 13 March 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

This is consistent with the TT rules. During the heat phase, you add all of the heat that your mech produced through weapons fire and movement (as well as any environment modifiers if you are playing with advanced rules.) Then you take that number and subtract the number of heat sinks you have on your mech. The remaining number is your heat for the next turn. Heat effects and modifiers aren't applied until after this subtraction. I don't see how this is any different than what is simulated in MWO.

Koniving, on 13 March 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

NUMBARS

The Godpigeon says...

Actually, it's not. The tabletop rules were a rough simulation of ten seconds time, with heat penalties for any heat that accumulated over your cooling/turn. Those heat penalties were the same no matter how many heat sinks you had, and forced a shutdown at 30 points of excess heat, no matter what. In MWO, that excess heat scale is expanded by adding heat sinks, so if I have 40 singles, I shut down at 70 excess heat. So there's a small but important difference in the system.

Edited by Void Angel, 13 March 2014 - 08:10 PM.

[no one]

Koniving, on 13 March 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

Let's use a 200 rated engine Hunchback with 15 DHS.

The tabletop system.
30 threshold. Period. Then heatsinks = cooling.

Okay, I like your analysis and it has inspired me to do... things with it tomorrow. This bit, however, isn't hard and fast truth. The 30 'threshold' in this example is actually just how much heat you can dissipate in a 10 second turn. That means you can fire three PPCs in 10 seconds while standing stationary and remain heat neutral. You don't get into the realm of actually overheating until you go beyond that and start to build up heat. You don't start experiencing negative side effects until you reach at least five 'overheat', you don't risk shutting down until you are at 14 or more overheat. etc. and so forth. At 30 'overheat' you automatically shut down, risk ammo explosions and death... all the fun stuff.

So I can see where MWO's concept of a high heat cap came from, it's just woefully under articulated and poorly expressed. I'm going to go back to my post in suggestions when I can keep my eyes open to see if I can logic this into a sensible heat system in a sensible way. It's going to be glorious, I can feel it.

Edited by no one, 16 March 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[Koniving]

Buckminster, on 13 March 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Another thing we're missing is penalties for running high heat. Starting at a heat of 5 you'd take a movement penalty, starting at 8 you'd get hit penalties, shutdown became a possibility at 14 and ammo explosions were possible at 23. It wasn't a simple "shutdown at 100% heat with no penalty otherwise".

I always remember the old routine with the Warhammer - fire both PPCs for 3 or 4 turns, and then you'd have to just fire one to bring your heat down before the penalties really kicked in.. Instead we have people riding at hear shut down with no real ill effects.

An assorted note for anyone reading that: Since turns are 10 seconds each. That's fire 2 PPCs once every 10 seconds, for 30 to 40 seconds and being hot enough that to keep running without striking penalties having to switch to just firing a single PPC every 10 seconds for another 10 to 20 seconds to allow yourself to cool a bit.

When you think of the craze about how "overpowered PPCs are," there you have it.

For reference... 5 heat is 16.67% heat. 8 is 26.67% heat. 14 is 46.67% heat (since I use a break-down version of Megamek I never really paid attention to when shutdown chances started). 23 is 76.67% heat. Then at 30 guaranteed shutdown (which typically lasts an entire turn so an entire 10 seconds), accompanied with a chance of falling over assuming the pilot was still even conscious at 100% heat. In my own experience the pilot typically lost conscious when exceeding 100% heat, the mech falling over and losing limbs to the massive damage of doing so.

------------

Now, that said.. I will say this for PGI. Closed Beta originally had some penalties for heat. At 80% heat, all components started taking damage. Ammo, heatsinks, actuators, the engine (not that the engine being destroyed did anything) and weapons. So if you kept riding 80% or more heat, the heatsinks would begin melting. When that happened your threshold went down, spiking your heat that much higher. Weapons would melt. Ammo would explode (and at the time sounded like popcorn in a long metal chute).

I miss these days.

[Koniving]

no one, on 14 March 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

Okay, I like your analysis and it has inspired me to do... things with it tomorrow. This bit, however, isn't hard and fast truth. The 30 'threshold' in this example is actually just how much heat you can dissipate in a 30 second turn. That means you can fire three PPCs in 10 seconds while standing stationary and remain heat neutral. You don't get into the realm of actually overheating until you go beyond that and start to build up heat. You don't start experiencing negative side effects until you reach at least five 'overheat', you don't risk shutting down until you are at 14 or more overheat. etc. and so forth. At 30 'overheat' you automatically shut down, risk ammo explosions and death... all the fun stuff.

So I can see where MWO's concept of a high heat cap came from, it's just woefully under articulated and poorly expressed. I'm going to go back to my post in suggestions when I can keep my eyes open to see if I can logic this into a sensible heat system in a sensible way. It's going to be glorious, I can feel it.

You missed some elements. One, 10 seconds not 30.

And 30 threshold is still 30 threshold. Even if you can fire off 90 heat in a single turn, remember it's over the span of 10 seconds and in real time you can replicate that.

But remember this... How many people fire once every ten seconds? The pilots in battletech sure don't. Instead they fire one weapon at a time. In fact, many weapon variants have different descriptions. For example there's a medium laser that supposedly fires 8 times in 5 seconds. It still only does 5 damage in total. Some lasers are described as constant beams. Some as instant-hit and taking forever to recharge. Much like autocannons. Some fire in very few shots. Some spam shots like crazy. Some actually require hand actuators to reload them (Victor specifically hand-reloads its Pontiac 100 AC/20 -- which is even described as having issues with its ammunition feed; a slow firing high caliber autocannon doesn't have issues and would be too inefficient to hand-reload. But, the fact is the Pontiac 100 is specifically described as firing 100 shots [hence the name] to get its 20 damage).

There's a few other things too, but the point is a turn is a summary of 10 seconds. During that 10 seconds a lot of things could have happened, for example you could have shut down during it and powered back up but it'd never be able to apply because you'd be forced to redo the turn over; completely undoing a lot of actions that two or more people have done. It's inconvenient. Hence why it's a summary.

Let's take a mission summary. Two 12 player teams went up against each other. Team A lost 9 players. Team B lost 11 players and one hid in a corner. Time ran out. Does that mean this happened instantly? Not at all. That means it took 15 minutes for it to occur. It could have played out many ways. Example, Team A could have lost all 9 players in an artillery strike and then the 3 remaining players on Team A went and killed 11 players of Team B. It could be that Team B steam-rolled Team A, killing 9 players back to back, and then 1 player on Team B team-killed the other 11 players on Team B. The point is... it could have gone any number of ways. But a summary is all you get.

So let's look at some summaries of the Awesome 8Q scenario.

Koniving, on 04 August 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

In David's (the developer seemingly responsible for the reason our heatsinks raise the threshold or at least most adamantly defending it) example of heat neutrality he used an Awesome 8Q with 3 PPCs at 10 heat each, and 30 SHS.
In real time 8Q fires 3 PPCs, shuts down. Starts back up at zero heat in the end of 10 seconds.
Or he fires one at a time or two then one. Pinpoint is defined as 2 or more fired at the same time to hit the same spot.

Let's break that down in every variation we can.

First tabletop direct translations with 1 at a time, 2 then 1, and then all 3 at once.

Spoiler

If he fires 2, then 1.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 2 PPCs, 20 heat.
At 1 seconds, 17 heat. Fires 1 PPC. + 10 heat = 27 heat. Fired all weapons for turn.
At 2 seconds, 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat.
At 5 seconds, 15 heat.
At 6 seconds, 12 heat.
At 7 seconds, 9 heat.
At 8 seconds, 6 heat.
At 9 seconds, 3 heat.
At 10 seconds, 0 heat.

Heat neutral, did 30 damage in 10 seconds. 1 instance of pinpoint damage for 20 damage.

If he fires 1 at a time.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 1 PPCs, 10 heat.
At 1 seconds, 7 heat. Fires 1 PPC. + 10 heat = 17 heat.
At 2 seconds, 14 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 24 heat. Fired all weapons for turn.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat.
At 5 seconds, 15 heat.
At 6 seconds, 12 heat.
At 7 seconds, 9 heat.
At 8 seconds, 6 heat.
At 9 seconds, 3 heat.
At 10 seconds, 0 heat.

Heat neutral, did 30 damage in 10 seconds. No pinpoint damage.

If the same build fired 3 at once, he'd shut down and be at 0 heat at the end of 10 seconds.

Now tabletop capacity and cooling, but with MWO's firing rate, fired as fast as possible to avoid shutdown.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 2 PPCs, 20 heat.
At 1 seconds, 17 heat.
At 2 seconds, 14 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat. 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 28 heat.
At 5 seconds, 25 heat.
At 6 seconds, 22 heat.
At 7 seconds, 19 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 29 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26 heat.
At 9 seconds, 23 heat.
At 10 seconds, 20 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 10 heat = 30 heat = shutdown.

Player has shut down at exactly 30 heat and managed 6 PPCs for 60 damage in 10 seconds. Only 2 were pinpoint on the same spot for 20 damage.

Tabletop, MWO's firing rate + MWO's heat.

Spoiler

Capacity: 30, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21 heat.
At 2 seconds, 19 heat.
At 3 seconds, 16 heat.
At 4 seconds, 13 heat. Fires 2 PPCs + 16 heat = 29 heat. (Heat level critical!)
At 5 seconds, 26 heat.
At 6 seconds, 23 heat.
At 7 seconds, 20 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 8 heat = 28 heat.
At 8 seconds, 25 heat.
At 9 seconds, 22 heat.
At 10 seconds, 19 heat. Fires 1 PPC + 8 heat = 29 heat.

Player is at 29 heat, did not shut down, and managed 7 PPCs for 70 damage in 10 seconds. 3 were pinpoint (30 damage), and then 2 more were pinpoint (20 damage).

Versus MWO's heat capacity system, with 10 heat per PPC, and then with 8 heat per PPC.

Spoiler

MWO's system. 30 SHS, 3 cooling per second. Base capacity 30 + 30 heatsinks = 60 capacity.
Using tabletop's 10 heat per PPC.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate),

Spoiler

Capacity: 60, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27 heat.
At 2 seconds, 24 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21 heat.
At 4 seconds, 18 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 38.
At 5 seconds, 35 heat.
At 6 seconds, 32 heat.
At 7 seconds, 29 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 56.
At 9 seconds, 53 heat.
At 10 seconds, 50 heat.

50 excess heat. Dealt 90 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets.

MWO's current unchanged system without heat penalties. 30 SHS, 3 cooling per second. Base capacity 30 + 30 heatsinks = 60 capacity.
Using MWO's current 8 heat per PPC.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate),

Spoiler

Capacity: 60, dissipation, 0.1 per second per heatsink, 30 heatsinks, 3 dissipation per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21 heat.
At 2 seconds, 18 heat.
At 3 seconds, 15 heat.
At 4 seconds, 12 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat = 36.
At 5 seconds, 33 heat.
At 6 seconds, 30 heat.
At 7 seconds, 27 heat.
At 8 seconds, 24 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat = 48.
At 9 seconds, 45 heat.
At 10 seconds, 42 heat.

42 excess heat. Dealt 90 damage. That's with MWO's heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets

Except for MWO's capacity system, all of the above same can be done with 15 DHS.

My estimation is that the damage dealt would weaken slightly with MWO's DHS compared to MWO's SHS, but it'd still be superior to the systems listed before it.

This is MWO's system with DHS, once with MWO PPC heat (8) and tabletop PPC heat (10).

Spoiler

Let's find out.
MWO's system, MWO PPC heat.
15 DHS, 10 engine (2.0) + 5 chassis (1.4).
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 20 engine + 7 chassis = 57
Dissipation = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7 per second.
Fires 3 at a time, 3 times.

Spoiler

Capacity: 57.
Dissipation: 2.7 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21.3 heat.
At 2 seconds, 18.6 heat.
At 3 seconds, 15.9 heat.
At 4 seconds, 13.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 37.2 heat.
At 5 seconds, 34.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 31.8 heat.
At 7 seconds, 29.1 heat.
At 8 seconds, 26.4 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 50.4 heat.
At 9 seconds, 47.7 heat.
At 10 seconds, 45 heat.

Player is at 45 heat and managed 9 PPCs for 90 damage in 10 seconds. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage to each of 3 targets.

MWO's system. Tabletop PPC heat.
15 DHS, 10 engine (2.0) + 5 chassis (1.4).
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 20 engine + 7 chassis = 57
Dissipation = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7 per second.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, three times in 10 seconds (at 4 second firing rate), with Tabletop's 10 heat.

Spoiler

Capacity: 57,
Dissipation: 2.7 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27.3 heat.
At 2 seconds, 24.6 heat.
At 3 seconds, 21.9 heat.
At 4 seconds, 19.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 49.2.
At 5 seconds, 46.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 43.8 heat.
At 7 seconds, 41.1 heat.
At 8 seconds, 38.4 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 68.4 Shutdown..

Shuts down at 68.4 in 8 seconds, possibly dies as a result.. Dealt 90 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 3 targets

We know PGI isn't interested in changing the system. That would make it too close to a thinking person's shooter and less appetizing for the casual Hawken player.

So how it would be if all mechs had 1.4 capacity rise, 1.4 cooling across the board for DHS as a compromise, so that mediums and lights don't get screwed with MWO's system?

Spoiler

Let's find out.
8 heat per PPC. 1.4 for all DHS.

Spoiler

MWO's system, MWO PPC heat.
15 DHS, 1.4 each = 21
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 21 = 51
Dissipation = 21 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.1 per second.
Fires 3 at a time, 3 times.

Spoiler

Capacity: 51.
Dissipation: 2.1 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 24 heat.
At 1 seconds, 21.9 heat.
At 2 seconds, 19.8 heat.
At 3 seconds, 17.7 heat.
At 4 seconds, 15.6 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 39.6 heat.
At 5 seconds, 37.5 heat.
At 6 seconds, 35.4 heat.
At 7 seconds, 33.3 heat.
At 8 seconds, 31.2 heat. Fires 3 PPCs + 24 heat = 55.2 heat.

Player is at 55.2 heat and shutdown in 8 seconds, managed 9 PPCs for 90 damage in 10 seconds. 3 + 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage + 30 damage to each of 3 targets.

MWO's system. Tabletop PPC heat.
15 DHS, All 1.4 = 21.
Capacity = base capacity 30 + 21 = 51
Dissipation = 21 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.1 per second.
Awesome 8Q fires 3 at a time, two times in 4 seconds (at 4 second firing rate), with Tabletop's 10 heat.

Spoiler

Capacity: 51,
Dissipation: 2.1 per second.
At 0 seconds Awesome fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat.
At 1 seconds, 27.9 heat.
At 2 seconds, 25.8 heat.
At 3 seconds, 23.7 heat.
At 4 seconds, 21.6 heat. Fires 3 PPCs, 30 heat = 51.6. Shutdown.

Shuts down at 51.6 in 4 seconds.. It could easily start right back up. Fired 6 PPCs and dealt 60 damage. That's with 10 heat per PPC in MWO's system with the same build. 3 + 3 were pinpoint. That's 30 damage + 30 damage or 30 damage to each of 2 targets

But at the beginning of this I mentioned you can squeeze off 90 heat in a turn when the limit is 30. Be prepared to have your mind blown.
Stalker. 340 engine (the stock engine and the 340 are the only choices a Stalker gets). XL. 6 ER PPCs. Almost no armor. 19 true double heatsinks. Tabletop.
Note: Summary is this. 90 heat generated. 38 heat sunk. 52 excess, shut-down. Stalker did not move. Pilot lost consciousness. Stalker fell.

Spoiler

0 seconds. Fired 1 ER PPC. + 15 heat. 50% threshold!
1 second, sunk 3.8 heat. 11.2 heat remaining.
2 seconds, Fired 1 ER PPC + 15 heat sunk 3.8 heat. 22.4 heat remaining. 74% threshold! (Pilot gets warned of shutdown risk.)
3 seconds, sunk 3.8 heat. 18.6 heat remaining. 62% threshold! (Override Engaged to prevent premature shutdown risk)
4 seconds, Fired 1 ER PPC + 15 heat sunk 3.8 heat. 29.8 heat remaining. 99.33% Threshold! (Override Engaged to prevent premature shutdown risk) Pilot's becoming delirious! Heavy breathing, blurred vision.
5 seconds, sunk 3.8 heat. 26 heat remaining. (Override Engaged)
6 seconds, sunk 3.8 heat. 22.2 heat remaining. 74% threshold! Pilot gets nervous.
7 seconds, Fired 1 ER PPC + 15 heat sunk 3.8 heat. 33.4 heat remaining. Pilot panicked and jammed the override. 111.33% threshold! Alarms sounding!
8 seconds, Fired 1 ER PPC + 15 heat sunk 3.8 heat. 44.6 heat remaining. (Override Engaged!) Alarms screaming! 148.66% threshold! (If this was MW3 the player would be dead; but tabletop the reactor doesn't explode. Any ammo in the mech would instantly detonate at this point with a 100% certainty).
9 seconds, Fired 1 ER PPC + 15 heat, sunk 3.8 heat. 55.8 heat remaining. 186% of threshold! Override has been cut off. The mech shuts down by force. The pilot himself has lost consciousness. The abrupt shutdown of this magnitude leaves the machine with no time to prepare, balance is almost impossible to maintain.
10 seconds, sunk 3.8 heat. 52 heat remaining. The mech has fallen over. Massive damage left side torso. Arm is destroyed. Pilot has taken damage due to a concussion during the fall.

It's definitely possible to do anything in tabletop with the direct real-time translation I described, bringing it back and forth between tabletop and real time and it makes a lot more sense. And the best part is, I didn't do anything but take the description of the events of a turn literally by breaking it down second by second. Heatsink is specifically described as sinking 0.1 heat per single heatsink per second. Doubles just do 0.2 heat per heatsink per second. Threshold is 30. A turn is 10 seconds. At the conclusion of the turn, calculate heat accumulated over turn and subtract 10 seconds of cooling. "The end result is the summary of all the events that transpired in the last 10 seconds." Nothing more.

Take any turn, break down 10 seconds into one second intervals. You'll figure out very quickly that this is the only way it can work, unless all weapons spend exactly 10 seconds to accumulate the heat generated from a single firing. Between my method and David's assumption, mine works identical to past MW games.

David's translation works identical to what can be seen in the Mechwarrior 5 trailer (which the game never released), while the animation took the exact same concept given from lore -- small lasers firing in rapid succession and accumulating to do "3 damage" over several seconds and PPCs being fired one at a time with space in between to allow for cooling.

The main difference is mine accounts for spikes in heat from weapon use as all mechwarrior games have them (for the easiest translation possible) and David's method can only work if all weapons take exactly 10 seconds to generate their total heat.

Between ours, mine maintains the lore standard "Alpha strikes are desperate measures" no matter what and that heat neutrality is maintained through a combination of skill and calculation. David's says "you're totally heat neutral so spam away with 30 PPCs in 18 seconds!" thus leading to the change in MWO that we have.

Just a note, the linked video had 13 DHS. >.>; 30 PPCs (at 8 heat each).

[Satan n stuff]

LauLiao, on 13 March 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

"Alpha Strike" is really more of a TT thing. A lot of (especially pre-clan) Inner Sphere stock mechs were not designed to fire all their weapons at once. Many had "layers" of weapons and only enough heat sinks to fire one or two "layers" at a time. For example, a mech might have had 2 LRM 15s, then possibly some lasers and SRMs for medium and short range defense. There would be enough heat sinks to fire the LRMs and be heat neutral, or fire the lasers and SRMs and be heat neutral, but if you fired everything at once you'd be looking at a massive heat build-up, so Alpha-striking was kind of a desperation/special circumstances type of move in TT. With the level of mech customization we have in this game, it's not really a big deal so much anymore.

That's still a perfectly viable way to build mechs, at least for mechs that have mostly energy hardpoints, since the weight and critical space investment of a reasonable number of heat sinks is far greater than that of multiple sets of energy weapons.
Being able to use the most heat efficient weapons for any specific range lets you deal more damage faster ( on average ) than using one set of weapons for all ranges and adding as many heat sinks as will fit. This also has the advantage of producing a much more powerful alpha strike at short range, when you need it to.
The problem with this is extreme ranges where a long ranged build will easily beat a mixed range build, though this also depends on the number of heat sinks each mech has. Both mechs might well have the same number of heat sinks and therefore the same cooling speed, in that case a prolonged engagement might be an even fight. Generally you don't want to be in prolonged engagements with high alpha energy builds, so this doesn't come up often in practice.

[no one]

Koniving, on 14 March 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

You missed some elements. One, 10 seconds not 30.

Whoops. I was still thinking 'threshold is 30' and 'overheat is 30' and. . . derp.

I've tossed up a suggestion very similar to what you're describing using smooth-scaled probabilities for shutdown risk and the like from TT. What you describe as 'threshold' is pretty much exactly what I call the 'heat buffer', since both describe the heat neutral 'Mech. It looks like you have the pilot hitting override at the start of the overheat threshold though? I would put it at 14 overheat, since that's the restart threshold, and where you begin to risk shutting down normally.

http://mwomercs.com/...aid-of-no-heat/

Edited by no one, 16 March 2014 - 02:20 PM.