68 replies to this topic

[no one]

Spleenslitta, on 18 March 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

In any case i've played with OP enough times to know that he most certainly ain't a "gauss-addict".

It's true! I tried fitting a Gauss in my Locust once. It didn't go well.

DavidHurricane, on 18 March 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

Add an "other" option?

Sure! But the heat curve in this system does get steeper when you enter overheat. . . Are you talking about a per weapon system?

Prezimonto, on 18 March 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

I'm actually entirely okay with this. Those mechs are already generally really bad compared to the bigger variety, and this only happens for a small subset of crossover, and in relatively small amounts of difference.

My problem is more with the mediums end of the spectrum, where you don't have that tonnage to devote to both a useful engine and heatsinks that would be competing for space with Endo. On heavies and assaults you'd be able to fit Endo as a weight saving measure and stuff DHS into 250+ rated engines, especially XLs. Making external heatsinks better is fine, but make them better than integral heat-sinks seems to cause problems. We can make DHS / SHS more of a choice in other ways. . .

Prezimonto, on 18 March 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

1) acknowledge that very few mechs can run those builds and live with it... if a mech is dedicating 25tons to cooling, I actually don't mind if it runs cool. In addition SHS should never overtake DHS while in the "buffer zone" under your regime, and I don't really care if SHS are a little better at cutting high over heat values in your system, because your pilot can only do it maybe 2 or 3 times before he dies.

1) - That's a good point. I'll have to tinker around with higher buffer numbers.

2) - A lot of stock 'Mechs have 10 SHS so making their overheat penalties scale too quickly would be pretty harsh. Bringing their heat buffer up a bit seems like a better option.

Edited by no one, 18 March 2014 - 07:02 PM.

[990Dreams]

no one, on 18 March 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Sure! But the heat curve in this system does get steeper when you enter overheat. . . Are you talking about a per weapon system?

Yes. As in You have one Medium Laser, you get 1xML heat. Two Medium Lasers, you get 2xML heat + ML heat/4

Just an example, not necessarily a real system:

wh: Weapon System Heat (duration would be handled in the firing code, not the heat code)
wn: Number of a given weapon system
eh: End Heat

eh=wh+(wn/wh)

Once again, that is just an example. It'd probably be a horrible idea to actually put in MW:O but it is just a demo of the idea (the more weapons you have, you get a higher stacking penalty. and since each weapon's heat goes up, hotter weapons get more penalties (but not ridiculous amounts). and the general rule is that the higher the damage the hotter the weapon, so it kinda solves the high-alpha/high-DPS problem).

Edited by DavidHurricane, 18 March 2014 - 03:57 PM.

[trollocaustic]

Increased disipation when just firing two ER PCCs on a mech that I literally stuffed to the gills with DHS, (21 of them, 11 internal, 10 external) and It eats 45% of my bar to fire, I really don't think that's enough.

yes, med lasers will literally run forever, but in a distance fight, Gauss will obivously trump ER PCC even more than now.

[no one]

DavidHurricane, on 18 March 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Yes. As in You have one Medium Laser, you get 1xML heat. Two Medium Lasers, you get 2xML heat + ML heat/4

Sounds like a more granulated version of ghost heat. You'd still be leaning on higher heat cap sizes to bear the brunt of the overheat and dealing with weapon timing issues.

trollocaustic, on 18 March 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Increased disipation when just firing two ER PCCs on a mech that I literally stuffed to the gills with DHS, (21 of them, 11 internal, 10 external) and It eats 45% of my bar to fire, I really don't think that's enough.

yes, med lasers will literally run forever, but in a distance fight, Gauss will obivously trump ER PCC even more than now.

1 - You can't have 11 internal heatsinks. Heat-sinks in your engine count as external.
2 - A huge part of the basis for this system is to encourage chain firing. Your inability to alpha-strike three erPPCs just so that you can match a dual Gauss Mech's pinpoint damage is NOT a problem. That's the meta we're trying to move away from, and the fact that you have a higher re-fire with those erPPCs even with cool-down is not an insignificant advantage.
3 - Gauss convergence is not a heat system issue. Convergence / recoil is a separate matter. Gauss 's re-fire rate remains it's limiting factor. The "I should be able to duplicate the functionality of apples with oranges" argument aside, the Gauss rifle is supposed to have a point damage 1.5 times that of PPCs, so if you can fire two erPPCs to two Gauss then that's a step in the right direction.
4 - If you think 1.5 times the current dissipation rate is too low, make an argument for why it's too low.
5 - Multiple medium lasers won't 'run forever', every weapon is affected equally relative to it's heat generation.

Most of the answers I just gave you are already in the thread.

[trollocaustic]

1: Just refering to where they're shoved in, I have 11 heat sinks in the engine and 10 outside.
2: I never intended to alpha 3 PPCs, I intended to be able to fire 2 ERPPCs 3 times without overheating, which even now, in average heat, is pushing it.
3: Just refering to how gauss has 0 heat, which makes it a flat out tactless weapon where your only factor is ammo, which is easier to manage than heat by magnitudes
4: I think that it won't make up for the penalities, especially given that buffer will likely be broken by 2 ERPPCs firing twice.
5: Even with my current build, my triple med laser can run constant fire on normal-heat maps without generating past my dissipation.

Honestly, the way this works, it's pretty good, but it still stands that the med-laser hunchback, stalkers, awesomes, and co are likely to suffer more than AC and gauss oriented mechs, despite already being inferior.

[no one]

Reasonable. Let's see, for 2 erPPCs to achieve the same 5 second average rate of fire as a Gauss rifle, a 15 DHS 'Mech would need 6 heat per second dissipation. . . or exactly twice current MWO/tabletop heat dissipation rates.

If internal and external heat sinks were the same, that's .4 h/s per double heat-sink and .2 h/s per single. ( Or you could do .45 internal and .3 external or something. )

Of course, accounting for cool run and other skills, if you're initial dissipation rate per DHS was .35h/s before cool run and mastery, you'd have .4h/s after those skills. That's not a lot faster than the dissipation rate I was using. I'll adjust the dissipation values in the table up to something similar, and throw in skill calculations.

Trivia:
- Gauss actually generates one heat.
- 3 ml generates 12 h/s while firing, you wouldn't overheat but you'd build up to 6 heat briefly (for one second) if stationary, or slightly less than an AC/20.
You only have 3 ml on your 'Mech?
- The medium laser hunchback suffers because PGI increased the heat on all medium and small lasers. In the TT small lasers generated 1 heat, mediums generated 3, medium pulse lasers generated 4. Those values might have been too low, but PGI still took the heat hammer to them a bit hard.

Edited by no one, 18 March 2014 - 07:03 PM.

[trollocaustic]

Quote

You only have 3 ml on your 'Mech?

3 ML and one that I upgraded to LL since I had the tonnage and room.

Quote

Gauss actually generates one heat.

One heat is enough for a SHS engine by itself to render moot, and even mechs who don't buy external sinks upgrade to DHS for bonus internal sink power, given the 2/s dissipation, 1 shot per 5 seconds, 5 gausses at once is how many you'd need to fire to actually worry about heat, even with this minimalist approach to sinks. As 5 gauss is literally impossible to fit in a mech, Gauss reliant long range snipers have no heat trouble to speak of.

[Cimarb]

trollocaustic, on 18 March 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Consider the amount of mechs that rely almost entirely on energy to fight, such as the stalker or awesome, who can't disengage to cool off, do we demand they use coolant shots to be viable?

With the current heat system, any mech that is heavily energy-dependent is at a disadvantage already. Yes, you can be successful with them, but it is much more difficult than it should be because of all the bandaids that PGI has had to put in place to avoid changing the abortion of a heat system they chose to use.

For instance, to fix the 2xERPPC+Gauss meta that made the HGN so well liked, they added Ghost Heat (which didn't actually affect it), then boosted the heat of ERPPCs way up. When that just made people switch to normal PPCs, they then added the Gauss charge (which I actually love, but only on my Jäger). Then that made people switch to ACs instead of Gauss, but otherwise we still have the same meta.

What has happened, though, is that other chassis have suffered because of this bandaid process. Awesomes and other heavy energy chassis are now immensely harder to use than anything with missile or ballistic points.

A proper low-cap, high-dissipation system will bring back the balance, as well as increase TTK (a good thing) by making chain fire the proper way to use your weapons (Chain fire gives targets the opportunity to torso twist and otherwise defend themselves from damage).

Just for reference, though, here is how the weapon systems are SUPPOSED to be balanced:

* ballistics: low heat, high weight, ammo
* missile: medium heat, medium weight, ammo
* energy: high heat, low weight, no ammo

[Loganauer]

I love this idea and would very much like to see it implemented.