68 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

What is the best way to handle PPC damage? We all have opinions, but which one would the most people be happy with?

Here are the extended descriptions of proposed ways to alter the damage delivery of PPCs. I have made some up myself, and some taken from what other's have described. All damage and associated numbers are open to adjustment, of course, and this is solely about the actual DELIVERY of that damage. Heat and all other metrics would remain the same unless otherwise noted or balance required.

• Man-made Lightning (random arc spread): The PPC shoots a lightning bolt that hits the target point for {6} damage, then arcs to two random spots anywhere on the mech for an additional {2} points each. For example, if the PPC hits the front RT, it does {6} points of damage, then arcs to the rear LT for {2} points of damage and the RL for another {2} points of damage, for a total of {10} points of damage. (OPTIONAL: the lightning can hit internal structure even if their is armor remaining on that section)
  
• Plasma Blob (energy LBX): The PPC functions like a small-radius LBX, with 10 plasma blobs that fire in a cone from the barrel, spreading to a {20m} cone at max range and dealing {1} point of damage per blob that hits.
  
• Electrolaser(charge): The PPC charges up for {0.5} seconds. During this time, a tag-like laser shows where the beam will shoot. After {0.5} seconds, the PPC discharges, shooting a beam of ionized particles along the laser to instantly do {10} points of damage. (NOTE: This may function like the Gauss charge, or possibly fire automatically after the charge up)
  
• Electropulse (duration): This functions like the Electrolaser, charging for {0.5} seconds, but then delivers {3} points of damage every {0.5} seconds after that for as long as the trigger is held. (Optional: Heat grows exponentially as the beam is held (so {1} heat the first tick, {2} the second, {4} the third, etc.))
  
• No change needed: The current method of damage delivery is fine the way it is.

If you have any other methods that you think would be interesting, feel free to share as well.

Edit 3-14: added heat increment as optional to Ion Beam per FupDup's suggestion
EDit 3-21: changed the name for #3 and #4 per Strum Wealh's great example of a similar real world weapon (http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3234849)

Edited by Cimarb, 21 March 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[FupDup]

Plasma blob would make the PPC into a bad weapon for the same reason that the LB 10-X is currently a bad weapon. Plus, having multiple projectiles might make hit detection more problematic (at least, that's what seems to happen with massed Lurms and Serms).


Ion Cannon gives me Command & Conquer nostalgia (ION CANNON ACTIVATED!), and the name sounds badass, but in actual gameplay it wouldn't be the best idea. Keep in mind that the Gauss Charge was originally added to make it a lot harder to use the two weapons simultaneously, and the Ion Cannon (as it is proposed) reduces the difference between the two weapons. It also makes the weapon harder to snapshot with, which is part of what distinguishes the PPC from other energy weapons.


Ion Beam reminds me a lot of the MW3 Pulse Laser mechanic, and I'd personally rename this particular mechanic to "Tractor Beam" to differentiate it from the Ion Cannon more. Anyways, this mechanic might be fun although I don't think the heat output should grow exponentially (just constant would probably work, or a steady increase). The reason for not wanting exponential heat is, well, because that's exactly what the Flamer does right now. It can get pretty silly at times; for example, I actually overheated and killed myself as a 59 SHS Stalker while firing only ONE Flamer (it took a while, though). I think I'd prefer the Tractor Beam/Ion Beam mechanic for the Bomblast Laser (if that ever gets added).


Man-Made Lightning is probably the easiest way to do this, and retains the PPC's instant-hit attribute while still spreading out the damage. However, I'd prefer for the arc to hit adjacent hitboxes rather than random hitboxes (because I hate random variables in combat).


I can live with the current mechanic, although I'd like for other weapons to be buffed so that they can stand a better chance.

Edited by FupDup, 13 March 2014 - 06:01 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

FupDup, on 13 March 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Man-Made Lightning is probably the easiest way to do this, and retains the PPC's instant-hit attribute while still spreading out the damage. However, I'd prefer for the arc to hit adjacent hitboxes rather than random hitboxes (because I hate random variables in combat).

I like it. Only time this would be difficult I supposed would be when hitting arms....aka 2 x 2pts have to go to adjacent torso...no other place to go. Hit legs and you can send the 2pts to side torso and CT or even opposite leg potentially.

[Cimarb]

FupDup - great feedback. While I really, really dislike random things too, but there are two reasons I decided to propose it that way: 1) it fits the lightning feel, and 2 ) ...

Lukoi, on 13 March 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

I like it. Only time this would be difficult I supposed would be when hitting arms....aka 2 x 2pts have to go to adjacent torso...no other place to go. Hit legs and you can send the 2pts to side torso and CT or even opposite leg potentially.

This. While it would work with the adjacent hits, you are limiting the destinations too much to be easily balanced, as the torsos would get the brunt of the spread and too much chance of head shots.

[no one]

Man-made Lightning (arc spread): The PPC shoots a lightning bolt that hits the target point for {8} damage, then arcs to between one and four adjacent sections of the 'Mech for an additional {1} point each. For example, if the PPC hits the front RT, it does {8} points of damage, then arcs to the RA for {1} point of damage and the CT for another {1} point of damage, for a total of {10} points of damage. (OPTIONAL: the lightning can hit internal structure even if their is armor remaining on that section)

Clan Variant: The CerPPC shoots a lightning bolt that hits the target point for {9} damage, then arcs to between one and four adjacent sections of the 'Mech for an additional {2} points each. For example, if the PPC hits the front RT, it does {9} points of damage, then arcs to the RA for {2} points of damage and the CT for another {2} point of damage, for a total of {13} points of damage.

The other options seem like they could be good for implementing weapons we'll see later in the timeline.

Plasma Rifle (Hot Energy LBX Action): The Plasma Rifle functions like a small-radius LBX, with 10 plasma blobs that fire in a cone from the barrel, spreading to a {15m} cone at max range and dealing {1} point of damage and {1} point of heat per blob that hits.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Plasma_Rifle

PPC + Capacitor (charge): The PPC with attached capacitor charges up for {3} seconds. During this time you generate {3} heat per second. After the capacitor is charged the PPC continues to generate {3} heat per second until it is fired, at which point the charged PPC behaves as though it were a Clan erPPC, as described above.
http://www.sarna.net...i/PPC_Capacitor

Edited by no one, 13 March 2014 - 07:38 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

PPC arcing retains much of the unique advantage that the PPC offers (ballsitic-behavior lump damage in an energy weapon), while also expanding its man-made-lightning feel and mitigating the overly strong precision damage aspect of the weapon.

Plus it would look pretty if done well.

Edit:

I prefer a 50%/30%/20% damage ratio for each jump. Half damage on impact, first jump does 30%, and second jump does the final 20%.

I also prefer arcing only to adjacent locations (2 arcs means it can travel pretty far across a mech, but it'd have to be a continuous line of hit locations rather than simpy leaping across a mech from one arm to another or whatever).

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 13 March 2014 - 07:44 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Cimarb, on 13 March 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

Ion Cannon (charge): The PPC charges up for {0.5} seconds. During this time, a tag-like laser shows where the beam will shoot. After {0.5} seconds, the PPC discharges, shooting a beam of ionized particles along the laser to instantly do {10} points of damage. (NOTE: This may function like the Gauss charge, or possibly fire automatically after the charge up)

Personally, I like the sound of the "Ion Cannon" proposal (applied to both the PPC and ER-PPC), along with reverting the PPC minimum range mechanic (to "linear damage drop-off as distance decreases below 90 meters").

[Cimarb]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 13 March 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

I prefer a 50%/30%/20% damage ratio for each jump. Half damage on impact, first jump does 30%, and second jump does the final 20%.

I also prefer arcing only to adjacent locations (2 arcs means it can travel pretty far across a mech, but it'd have to be a continuous line of hit locations rather than simpy leaping across a mech from one arm to another or whatever).

The degrading arcs do make sense, which would make it 5/3/2 based off of the existing damage of a PPC. That is why I put the numbers in brackets, as I think it would take some tweaking to balance them of course, but I like that idea.

Strum Wealh, on 14 March 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

Personally, I like the sound of the "Ion Cannon" proposal (applied to both the PPC and ER-PPC), along with reverting the PPC minimum range mechanic (to "linear damage drop-off as distance decreases below 90 meters").

Yeah, I tried not to get too specific on details, such as the ECM nullification, minimum range, etc. Having a reverse linear drop off would definitely make more sense than the PPC "goo" somehow magically not doing damage until 90+ meters, though I worry that it would make the standard PPC too powerful. It could always be balanced other ways, though.

[Mechteric]

I think its important to have an energy weapon that is not exactly like the others (lasers). Additionally the charge up mechanic pretty much destroyed Gauss (unless you dual Gauss) and I don't want that to happen to PPCs also. So I'm more of the opinion that it should do a bit of splash at the cost of doing a bit less to one component (like in Mechwarrior LIving Legends)

[Spleenslitta]

I voted for the lightning with random arc idea because it would make hits to the head less likely than something that just arces to the nearest bodypart.
The internal damage despite armor is also a nice touch.

[Cimarb]

I'm actually pretty surprised how dominant the lightning option is so far... I know its a small sample size, but 62% of the votes is a good head start. Thanks for voting and feel free to encourage others to do the same. The only way PGI will consider changes is to do votes like this, according to their twitter posts...

[Alex Warden]

imho ppc is okay where it is... it has an enourmous downside contrary to most other pinpointers... enormous heat... if anything, we need a feature that PGI desperately tries to avoid...: convergence

[Cimarb]

Alex Warden, on 14 March 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

imho ppc is okay where it is... it has an enourmous downside contrary to most other pinpointers... enormous heat... if anything, we need a feature that PGI desperately tries to avoid...: convergence

Convergence is an issue with CryEngine from what I have read. PPCs have high heat for the same reason AC2s and AC20s have ghost heat: Front-loaded damage. If Front-loaded damage is removed or at least modified enough to put it in line with other weapons, such as lasers, then ghost heat can be removed and heat can be adjusted to compensate.

[Khobai]

PPC:
6 pinpoint damage with 4 damage divided even among adjacent locations
Damage decreases linearly under 90m instead of dropping off immediately to 0
Heat lowered from 10 to 9
PPC disrupts HUD targeting for 1 second.

ERPPC:
6 pinpoint damage with 4 damage divided evenly among adjacent locations
Heat lowered from 15 to 13.5
ERPPC disrupts HUD targeting for 1 second

[Strum Wealh]

Cimarb, on 14 March 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Yeah, I tried not to get too specific on details, such as the ECM nullification, minimum range, etc. Having a reverse linear drop off would definitely make more sense than the PPC "goo" somehow magically not doing damage until 90+ meters, though I worry that it would make the standard PPC too powerful. It could always be balanced other ways, though.

The "inside-minimum-range falloff" doesn't necessarily have to be linear. Nor does the "past-optimal-range falloff", for that matter.
As an example for the Standard PPC (with x = distance to target & y = damage to target):

• for 0 ≤ x < 90 meters: y = 0.00123457(x^2)
  
• for 90 ≤ x ≤ 540 meters: y = 10
  
• for 540 < x ≤ 1080 meters: y = 0.0000342936(x^2) - 0.0740741(x) + 40
  
• for 1080 < x meters: y = 0

The ER-PPC could work similarly (where, again, x = distance to target & y = damage to target):

• for 0 ≤ x ≤ 810 meters: y = 10
  
• for 810 < x ≤ 1620 meters: y = 0.0000152146(x^2) - 0.0493827(x) + 40
  
• for 1620 < x meters: y = 0

The quadratic terms in both cases produce rather nice curves, with each set producing a (IMO) workable and novel damage profile for the weapons.
From there, one can then throw on all of the other bits (ECM nullification, HUD disruption, etc).

Edited by Strum Wealh, 15 March 2014 - 09:40 AM.

[no one]

As far as PPC minimum range goes, I've always liked the idea of having a field inhibitor mechanic that could be toggled like missile doors.

Spoiler

"PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems.^[6] This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range."

Firing at point blank with the inhibitor off for full damage risks frying your PPC. Firing with the inhibitor on reduces your damage inside 90m either linearly, or not.

Khobai, on 15 March 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

PPC:
6 pinpoint damage with 4 damage divided even among adjacent locations

Having a 'splash' damage that high is a bad idea. Depending on which location you hit, and what you count as an 'adjacent location' you would end up dealing ridiculous amounts of incidental damage.

6 (RA) + 4 (RT) = 10
6 (CT) + 4 (RT) + 4 (LT) + 4(RL) + 4 (LL) + 4 (HD) = 26

Like an LB 10-X from hell.

[Pezzer]

PPC is gimped as it is. I'd rather have the cooldown doubled and the projectile speed increased. Make it a REAL long-range laser weapon. ER PPCs should have a slightly faster projectile speed than normal ones. That's pretty much how it was in closed beta, I just remember PPC heat being unbearable (this was before the DHS BS). The weapon worked well then minus the spotty hitreg and some other technical issues. I'd rather have that PPC be brought back, albeit with a visual EMP effect on the enemy's screen.

Edited by Pezzer, 15 March 2014 - 10:35 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Having a 'splash' damage that high is a bad idea. Depending on which location you hit, and what you count as an 'adjacent location' you would end up dealing ridiculous amounts of incidental damage.

You misunderstood. Its not 4 damage to each adjacent location. Its 4 damage TOTAL divided evenly among all adjacent locations.

[no one]

Khobai, on 15 March 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

You misunderstood. Its not 4 damage to each adjacent location. Its 4 damage TOTAL divided evenly among all adjacent locations.

Ah, all right then. That makes sense, though I'd argue it's too little pinpoint damage for a PPC. Consider that the PPC has a travel time and you can't hold the damage on one point through careful aim, as with a laser. Additionally, reducing the focused damage to 8 or 9 already robs the PPC of it's ability to one-shot components, and that's a significant enough de-buff.

Also, the adjacent damage being heavily dispersed in some cases (ct hit) and very focused in others (arm or leg) makes that mechanic a bit of an odd duck. It would act like a close range LB 10-X in the former case, and a lopsided uAC/5 hit in the latter. Still, it's better than what I thought you were suggesting, sorry.

Edited by no one, 15 March 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

no one, on 15 March 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

As far as PPC minimum range goes, I've always liked the idea of having a field inhibitor mechanic that could be toggled like missile doors.

Spoiler

"PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems.^[6] This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range."

Firing at point blank with the inhibitor off for full damage risks frying your PPC. Firing with the inhibitor on reduces your damage inside 90m either linearly, or not.

I agree.
In fact, I actually wrote a proposal for the Field Inhibitor that included an equation for determining the likelihood of the PPC with a disabled FI shorting itself out (and having the PPC explode, in much the same way the Gauss Rifle does), where said equation was derived using the FI-related roll requirements/results from BattleTech.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 15 March 2014 - 10:59 AM.