12 replies to this topic

[Janitor101]

So I'm a big fan of the Griffin redesign in MWO, however the hardpoint layout really murders the mech as a viable choice.

For example the GRF-1N only requires that the Right Torso be destroyed, and then you're left piloting a 55t target.
The GRF1S is better, because it has the Missile hardpoints on the Left Torso, but too many of its weapons are Right Arm mounted.
The GRF-3M is the most useful of the variants we have with a laser hardpoint in the Left Torso, but also suffers from 55t target syndrome if the Right Torso is lost.

So, I played with Photoshop, and Smurfy to come up with a Griffin Hero mech that I would want to play, but also would not suffer from the terrible fate of being easily made worthless on the field.

Image is hidden in the spoiler to prevent horrid loadtimes.

Spoiler

As you can see, I have spread the weapons out across the mech, preventing easy nullification of the mech, here is the Smurfy loadout I came up with. It uses the Shadow Hawk 2D2 as a template for the hardpoints, I have my own ideas for what the Hardpoints should be on this mech, which I will outline below.

What I see as a reasonable hardpoint layout is as follows:

Right Arm: x2 Energy Hardpoints.
Right Torso: x1 Ballistic Hardpoint.
Left Torso: x2 Missile Harpoints.
Left Arm: x2 Energy Hardpoints.

I considered a second ballistic, but that would lead into use as a AC/5 boat, which I despise with all my heart.
While the extra energy points, allows for greater build flexibility, like dropping the dumb fire SRMS for Streaks and slapping on two more Medium Lasers, or dropping the AC/5 to an AC/2 or MG and adding Large Lasers.

As for name and theme, I decided to go for something based on the total insanity that is close quarters combat that MWO brings, and that theme is Chaos.
The stars, if you haven't noticed, are 8 pointed stars, which are popularly used as a symbol for chaos, and there are eight of them.
Name ideas I have are just 'Chaos', or something to the theme of 'Absolute Chaos', 'Infinite Chaos' etc. But the name isn't as important as the loadout and weapons placement are to me.

So, what do you all think? Poll is above, give me your feedback, I'd love to hear it.

[FupDup]

IMO, it feels like it's noticeably stronger than any of the C-Bill Griffins and perhaps even the Shadow Hawk line. The Griffin 1S in particularly is rendered 100% obsolete against this hero (1S has 4 energy in right arm and 2 missiles in left torso). That ballistic hardpoint, especially being high-mounted, makes it poptart/hillhump capable for FoTM loadouts. The Shadow Hawks can of course match the poptart power of this Griffin hero, but Griffins in general have dramatically better torso twisting agility (speed and max twist angle) than the Shawk lineup. Also, this hero has more hardpoints than any Griffin variant, and those hardpoints can all be utilized without making any large sacrifices (i.e. 4 ML, 1 UAC/5 or AC/10, and your choice of small missiles).

It just seems to gain a lot of advantages without giving anything up in return. If it inherited the same agility as the rest of the Griffins, it would instantaneously replace the Shadow Hawk as king of the mediums. I am not even exaggerating here. This hero combines the hardpoint number and composition of the Shadow Hawk, with the ballerina agility of a Griffin. It lets you eat your cake and have it too. The best of both worlds.

Edited by FupDup, 14 March 2014 - 07:19 PM.

[Janitor101]

First off, it doesn't take much to make any of the C-Bill Griffins obsolete, because of their inherently TERRIBLE hardpoint locations.

And as for the location of the Ballistic hardoint, what if the barrel was placed where the lower vent is on the hump? The cannon would then be in line if not below the cockpit, any poptarting would require exposing the cockpit to return fire. Or, with enough work to the pod, it could be mounted under the RT, no more poptarting problem.

As for it having more hardpoints, I considered the possibility of just leaving it at 2 energy total, one for each arm.
As for no disadvantages, go ahead, try and play with the design, if you want to put any larger energy weapons, you end up with an MG and 2 Streaks super quick, unless you want a really really small engine.
You end up gutting your engine really fast if you try to gain more firepower, which in turn makes you a slow target which with the way MWO plays at the moment makes you dog food.

As for the higher agility, you're probably right, it'd need a torso twist speed nerf to some degree due to the additional strain on the mechanisms, but when lining this mech up against a x2 AC/5 x1 AC/2 Shawk, it doesn't beat the Shawk in pop up/poptart power. Those multiple ballistics shred you way faster, and there wouldn't ever be that problem with this design because it only has one ballistic.

EDIT: The main concept here is a Griffin hero that doesn't suffer from the easy destruction of weaponry that the other Model Griffins does. And since most if not all Hero mechs have hardpoints that aren't available to the standard models, I added the single ballistic.

Edited by Janitor101, 14 March 2014 - 07:44 PM.

[FupDup]

Janitor101, on 14 March 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

First off, it doesn't take much to make any of the C-Bill Griffins obsolete, because of their inherently TERRIBLE hardpoint locations.

Right, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a premium-only item that is significantly (more than almost in the case of the 1S variant) more powerful than its freemium equivalents. We could of course approach this from the opposite direction and buff the C-Bill variants, although PGI doesn't seem to like buffing things very often (especially not medium mechs). But then again, if they made a hero, it would also almost certainly be mediocre at best.

Janitor101, on 14 March 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

And as for the location of the Ballistic hardoint, what if the barrel was placed where the lower vent is on the hump? The cannon would then be in line if not below the cockpit, any poptarting would require exposing the cockpit to return fire.

JJs can often mitigate low-mounted weapons, as seen by certain jumping assault mechs and one heavy (and I guess an ERPPC in a Shadow Hawk's arm). JJs or not, it's still a very very very good variant regardless.

Janitor101, on 14 March 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

As for it having more hardpoints, I considered the possibility of just leaving it at 2 energy total, one for each arm.
As for no disadvantages, go ahead, try and play with the design, if you want to put any larger energy weapons, you end up with an MG and 2 Streaks super quick, unless you want a really really small engine.
You end up gutting your engine really fast if you try to gain more firepower, which in turn makes you a slow target which with the way MWO plays at the moment makes you dog food.

Here is what I cooked up in a few minutes in Smurfys:
Ghetto Griffin Hero
The missing 9 tons would be spent on adding a UAC/5. So this gives us:

• XL300 engine
  
• UAC/5 + 3 tons of ammo
  
• 2 SSRM2 + 1 ton of ammo + BAP
  
• 4 ML + 2 external DHS to help with heat
  
• 4 JJs
  
• Pretty much max armor except 44 points on legs (which is still pretty good) and 16 points on the head

That is a lot of bang for the buck. Might run a little hot with only 12 dubs for 4 ML, but it has good enough speed to hit-and-fade much of the time and has missiles + that UAC/5 to lean on while it cools down for a laser strike.

Janitor101, on 14 March 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

As for the higher agility, you're probably right, it'd need a torso twist speed nerf to some degree due to the additional strain on the mechanisms, but when lining this mech up against a x2 AC/5 x1 AC/2 Shawk, it doesn't beat the Shawk in pop up/poptart power. Those multiple ballistics shred you way faster, and there wouldn't ever be that problem with this design because it only has one ballistic.

Poptarting in general requires builds that are focused on packing a good alpha strike, as opposed to DPS. This is because they are only in the air for a short time before they fall behind their chosen cover, so they have to make the most of it. Boating small ACs alone isn't quite a poptart build so much as a DPS one.

That 2 AC/5 + AC/2 Shad only has an alpha of 12 (albeit with a fast rate of fire). The "true" poptart builds on Shadow Hawks are along the lines of ERPPC + AC/20 or ERPPC + 2 AC/5 (this Griffin hero would have to use an AC/10 instead of 2 AC/5, but otherwise not much of a difference).


Poptarting definition aside, trying to squeeze in that many ACs on a medium mech is kind of silly anyways because the Shad will end up moving at heavy mech speeds and will have to stay exposed to make the most of its DPS (and can't twist without losing its DPS). It's best to leave AC boating to the heavies and assaults.


-----------------------


Don't get me wrong, because of course I'd buy it, because I like my Griffins quite a bit as well as my all-rounder Shadow Hawk 2D2 (my example build earlier was built in its likeness). But it would easily roflstomp the non-premium Griffins and even give the Shawks a run for their money. Maybe we can tone down this hero a little bit, or perhaps we can buff the existing Griffins to avoid issues. Whatever the case, it just feels comparatively too strong.

It's important to note that I don't want this hero or any hero mechs to suck. I want all heroes to be viable and competitive against their C-Bill counterparts. My methodology is just to prevent the pendulum from swinging to the exact opposite extreme.

Edited by FupDup, 14 March 2014 - 08:15 PM.

[Janitor101]

TBH, over getting this hero, I'd like to see the Griffins get buffed, and any mech that gives the Shawks a good run right now is good in my book, cause they're basically the only medium mech we see nowadays.

And I realize in hindsight I failed to mention the JJs, I would limit them to 2 or 3, max, to help damage the mech's use as a poptarter.

But yeah, if this hero didn't see the light of day because the C-Bill Griffins got a nice buff, I wouldn't cry much beyond loosing the Chaos Star color patterns.

Edited by Janitor101, 14 March 2014 - 08:31 PM.

[FupDup]

Janitor101, on 14 March 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

TBH, over getting this hero, I'd like to see the Griffins get buffed, and any mech that gives the Shawks a good run right now is good in my book, cause they're basically the only medium mech we see nowadays.

And I realize in hindsight I failed to mention the JJs, I would limit them to 2 or 3, max, to help damage the mech's use as a poptarter.

But yeah, if this hero didn't see the light of day because the C-Bill Griffins got a nice buff, I wouldn't cry much beyond loosing the Chaos Star color patterns.

For Griffin buffs, what I would do is...

3M: +1 missile in right torso (total of 2 energy + 5 missile)
1S: +1 missile in left torso (total of 4 energy + 3 missile)
1N: Uh, I guess +1 missile in the right torso? (Too many energy in the arm is a liability, whereas torso can be protected most of the time) (total of 3 energy + 4 missile)


And while we're at it, the Wolverines would probably need similar treatment (Kintaros already have 7 hardpoints, so they might be fine without a buff). Now we just need SRM buffs so all their missile hardpoints actually amount to something, and perhaps stronger heatsinks because most of them lack ballistics to fall back on (more heat dependent). After all of this would be done, a ballistic Griffin probably wouldn't stand as high above the others as compared to what would happen if we introduced it right now. Although, all of these changes are highly unlikely to ever happen, unfortunately.

Edited by FupDup, 14 March 2014 - 08:45 PM.

[Deathlike]

This is a bad idea based on my experience with the Griffin.

The Griffin is better than some give it credit for as it is the best missile boat of the 55 tonners in terms of mobility and hardpoints. The Kintaro has better building capacity though.

I think you're overly focused too much on the weapon locations, which was my initial reaction and opinion of it. Having faced it but also building the variants for it... the Yen Lo Wang is the closest example to what the Griffin is (minus the JJs) in terms of how most build it. The thing is, the XL aspect of this build is just as good as the acclaimed Shadowhawk. The location of the torso weapons are NOT the problem. The arm is... like the YLW, except unlike the YLW, the torso twist capability PLUS the arm articulation makes it a lot more flexible than the YLW, despite having the same overall problem (destroying the right arm tends to disable most of the firepower).

In any case, the Griffin is better than the Shadowhawk if you're primarily using it as a missile boat (compared to the 2D2 - the 3M is superior, the 2D2 is a better Streakboat however). Otherwise the Shadowhawk is a lot more diverse in loadouts and the Griffin is a very tricky missile boat to contend with.

I think your hero would be pretty OP anyhow... considering it is a superior Griffin-1S.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 March 2014 - 08:56 PM.

[Janitor101]

FupDup, on 14 March 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

For Griffin buffs, what I would do is...

3M: +1 missile in right torso (total of 2 energy + 5 missile)
1S: +1 missile in left torso (total of 4 energy + 3 missile)
1N: Uh, I guess +1 missile in the right torso? (Too many energy in the arm is a liability, whereas torso can be protected most of the time) (total of 3 energy + 4 missile)


And while we're at it, the Wolverines would probably need similar treatment (Kintaros already have 7 hardpoints, so they might be fine without a buff). Now we just need SRM buffs so all their missile hardpoints actually amount to something, and perhaps stronger heatsinks because most of them lack ballistics to fall back on (more heat dependent). After all of this would be done, a ballistic Griffin probably wouldn't stand as high above the others as compared to what would happen if we introduced it right now. Although, all of these changes are highly unlikely to ever happen, unfortunately.

To be honest, those changes would only increase their firepower until they were made worthless by having their RA or RT shot off, PGI dropped the ball on making the Griffins decent for this game because they didn't even try to look at other potential locations for weapon hardpoints, the energy points should have been distributed across both arms.
IMHO, the only way they can de-shit the Griffins is to remodel the hardpoint locations, swapping some energy points to the left arm on the 1N and 1S, and on the 1N and 3M swapping one or two missile points to the left torso (showing up in the actual chest plating, not another pod). That would make a much more difficult mech to destroy and disarm.
However, given PGIs disinclination to return and heavily modify previously introduced mechs, I doubt it'll ever happen.


Deathlike, having a 'good' missile boat doesn't meant squat if all or 90% of your weapons are destroyed within the first half minute or minute of engagement, everyone knows the Griffins mount almost all their weapons on RA or RT, so the RT is the first thing that gets shot off.
Which makes whatever missile boat capabilities this mech has, pointless because it is not capable of retaining enough weapons through the match to be actually useful, therefore, nobody except hardcore Griffin fans use it, and even then, it isn't a very effective mech because its disabled so easily and quickly.

Okay, every seems to be pointing to the fact that this model Griffin I proposed is, long story short, a superior 1S Griffin. What if the energy hardpoints were reduce to 1 per arm? It is now effectively a 1S Griffin that traded two energy points for a single Ballistic, which is a trade I would make in a heartbeat if it almost meant the hardpoint changes I suggested. Does that alleviate some or any of the worries mentioned?

Edited by Janitor101, 15 March 2014 - 10:02 AM.

[Deathlike]

Janitor101, on 15 March 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Deathlike, having a 'good' missile boat doesn't meant squat if all or 90% of your weapons are destroyed within the first half minute or minute of engagement, everyone knows the Griffins mount almost all their weapons on RA or RT, so the RT is the first thing that gets shot off.
Which makes whatever missile boat capabilities this mech has, pointless because it is not capable of retaining enough weapons through the match to be actually useful, therefore, nobody except hardcore Griffin fans use it, and even then, it isn't a very effective mech because its disabled so easily and quickly.

I think you're overrating it a bit.to a degree. Yes, destroying that particular torso means losing all the weapons. I get that. HOWEVER, this is mitigated by torso twisting. If you are not good at it, then there's nothing more to say. A venerable mech like the Centurion-A has a missile torso. Besides the fact that it does have some extra protection, good mech pilots know how to protect themselves.. and in the case of the Centurion the large arms serve that purpose. In the case of the Griffin, the "shield arm" (the left arm) is very effective in combating this effect. In addition, the massive torso twist allows you to distribution the damage however you wish. It won't overcome major focus fire, but when used properly you can mitigate the damage significantly.

I'm not going to say that Griffin is a competitive mech... I believe the 3M is probably the only one that would hold up (and to a lesser extent, the 1S). The thing is, if the torso twist and the shield arms weren't a factor, then you'd have a point. The venerable Hunchback is always a source of contention for people, because of its notable flaws. There's only one variant viable for competitive play (the 4SP), but people who don't understand how to torso twist effectively enough will never be able to use the Hunchback properly... and I love the Hunchbacks. Not everyone will be compatible with it, but people who know how to use its massive Torso Twisting benefit from the kinds of stuff you can do with it.

Trying to "mold" the Griffin into something else is more of a compatibility issue between you and the mech. Don't blame the mech because you don't quite grasp what it takes to be successful. The mech is not for everyone, but to pull sole liability on its design is not understanding it at all.

I was on your side when the specs were put out. I get it. IIRC, I might have thought and/or said they were DOA. However, since seeing them in combat AND using them, you have to make the most of what the mech gives you before giving up on it... at least for me, I've changed my mind regarding it. I feel that you haven't made the most of it (or at least, unable to make of the most out of it). So, I'll just agree to disagree here. It's OK that a mech is not made for you, but don't entirely blame it on the mech... sometimes the pilot themselves must be able to adjust to the situation.

Quote

Okay, every seems to be pointing to the fact that this model Griffin I proposed is, long story short, a superior 1S Griffin. What if the energy hardpoints were reduce to 1 per arm? It is now effectively a 1S Griffin that traded two energy points for a single Ballistic, which is a trade I would make in a heartbeat if it almost meant the hardpoint changes I suggested. Does that alleviate some or any of the worries mentioned?

I don't see why I'd wouldn't go straight to the Shadowhawk-2D2.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 March 2014 - 03:48 PM.

[FupDup]

Janitor101, on 15 March 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

To be honest, those changes would only increase their firepower until they were made worthless by having their RA or RT shot off, PGI dropped the ball on making the Griffins decent for this game because they didn't even try to look at other potential locations for weapon hardpoints, the energy points should have been distributed across both arms.
IMHO, the only way they can de-shit the Griffins is to remodel the hardpoint locations, swapping some energy points to the left arm on the 1N and 1S, and on the 1N and 3M swapping one or two missile points to the left torso (showing up in the actual chest plating, not another pod). That would make a much more difficult mech to destroy and disarm.
However, given PGIs disinclination to return and heavily modify previously introduced mechs, I doubt it'll ever happen.

I run XL engines on all my 55 ton mediums (Griffins included), so losing a side torso just means dying outright anyways (for me). I experience losing my arms constantly and sometimes legs, although I usuaully only lose a side torso after the rest of my mech has been pulverized. The mech's high agility makes it a beast at torso twisting to spread out damage, and it can twist so far that you can afford to skimp on rear armor in favor of more frontal armor (I personally run with 8 rear armor on each torso, and all the rest of the armor is loaded to the front). Keeping a side torso functional is quite easy for me most of the time.

I'd be okay with moving around the hardpoints to different locations, but PGI seems to only want hardpoints in places where the mechs had weapons in the Tabletop board game.

Janitor101, on 15 March 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Okay, every seems to be pointing to the fact that this model Griffin I proposed is, long story short, a superior 1S Griffin. What if the energy hardpoints were reduce to 1 per arm? It is now effectively a 1S Griffin that traded two energy points for a single Ballistic, which is a trade I would make in a heartbeat if it almost meant the hardpoint changes I suggested. Does that alleviate some or any of the worries mentioned?

If we don't get any C-Bill variant buffs, we can easily just drop one hardpoint off the hero to better balance it against the others. I'd recommend removing one energy hardpoint from either arm. 3 energy + 1 ballistic + 2 missile would still be pretty darn good for a Griffin (or any medium, really). Maybe it can also have a lower JJ limit to balance it out (i.e. 2-3 max). May want to move the ballistic to an arm to reduce the advantage of having that ballistic.

[no one]

Janitor101, on 14 March 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

So I'm a big fan of the Griffin redesign in MWO, however the hardpoint layout really murders the mech as a viable choice.
. . .
So, what do you all think? Poll is above, give me your feedback, I'd love to hear it.

Strip the ballistic hardpoint off of that and stick two in the center torso, poking out of those grills. That gives you the choice of center line AC/2s or machine guns without making it into a better Shadowhawk. Optionally you could swap an energy hardpoint in the left arm for another missile hardpoint. For balance, I'd drop the maximum mountable jump jets to six and/or strip off it's AMS since it's more offensively capable.

Right Arm: x2 Energy Hardpoints.
Center Torso: x2 Ballistic Hardpoint.
Left Torso: x3 Missile Harpoints.
Left Arm: x1 Energy Hardpoints.

Would be interesting to see a 'Mechs without AMS. You'd have to buddy up with a Jester or something.

Edited by no one, 15 March 2014 - 05:10 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

Personally, I think the Griffin as it is is fine in a way. The original 1N is a long range fire-support 'Mech armed with a PPC and 10 LRMs. The Right-side focus allows the 'Mech to fire from cover without exposing itself too much, so there have definitely been some intelligent design choices. They just don't apply as much to the current Meta.


The updated variants help adding some variety but continue the tradition. If the heat-system would be roughly equivalent to tabletop, the Griffin would actually be a pretty descent sniper, capable of quick repositioning while sniping from a save distance. Right now... it just can't compare to a hexa-PPC Stalker.

[Mitsuragi]

Janitor101, on 15 March 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

To be honest, those changes would only increase their firepower until they were made worthless by having their RA or RT shot off, PGI dropped the ball on making the Griffins decent for this game because they didn't even try to look at other potential locations for weapon hardpoints, the energy points should have been distributed across both arms.

1) PGI's variants are based on existing mechs, so they didn't invent the layout.

2) If you want a Wolverine why don't you play a Wolverine? The 7K has missiles in both torsos, a head laser, and arm lasers. It comes in many flavors including grape and apple. It jumps, it has the griffon's agility, it has the hard points you want, it brawls and tarts, it's basically everything you're asking for. Why make a Griffon into a Shadow Hawk or Wolverine instead of just playing those mechs?