68 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Koniving, on 15 March 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

Knowing PGI it'd be abuse heavy.

The problem is if you missed you typically fell down, and an assault trying to punch or kick a light mech almost always missed. You had a better chance of cockpitting a Mercury (20 ton light) with an Atlas K by firing your MPLs backwards while fighting a Marauder in front of you than you actually had of successfully hitting a light mech with a melee attack.

I mention that specific one because it happened. I was gloriously happy. The MPL melted the cockpit armor and the pilot lost consciousness. After I blasted the Marauder several times, I turned around and tried to kicked the Mercury with the unconscious pilot that was fallen. I missed and fell on my ass.

Meanwhile, a Highlander tried to DFA (Death from above) my Quickdraw. He missed, fell, and over the next 30 seconds (3 turns) he had repeated failures to stand until finally he broke his own leg. Meanwhile I'm firing forward and behind at a Crab and a 6 PPC Stalker (overheated, fell on its face) simultaneously.

Quite fun. But the actual melee in Battletech was quite unreliable. You damaged yourself almost as much as you dealt damage to others. Add to that if you miss you had a good chance of falling.

just because it was unreliable in BT doesnt mean it has to be in this game. It would probly be very easy to work with the same type of melee options other shooters have and just lessen the overall insta-gibbing qualities and just have it damage them

[Xenoid]

One use that could be implemented for hands right away deals with jammed autocannons. I'm going from memory here, but I think in TT if a UAC jammed, a mech could use its hand the following turn to unjam it. I don't know if the animation in game would be possible, but at the very least if a mech had a hand maybe the time it takes for a UAC to become unjammed could be reduced.

[Mcgral18]

GoTeamVenture, on 15 March 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

One use that could be implemented for hands right away deals with jammed autocannons. I'm going from memory here, but I think in TT if a UAC jammed, a mech could use its hand the following turn to unjam it. I don't know if the animation in game would be possible, but at the very least if a mech had a hand maybe the time it takes for a UAC to become unjammed could be reduced.

Ultra's were jammed for the match, while Rotary ACs could be unjammed instead of moving (or did it use MPs? I'm going by Megamek rules, which aren't quite TT)

[Koniving]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

just because it was unreliable in BT doesnt mean it has to be in this game. It would probly be very easy to work with the same type of melee options other shooters have and just lessen the overall insta-gibbing qualities and just have it damage them

The problem with that is doing so essentially removes the risk/reward part of the equation. Very high risk means you won't spam it. The slight reward is great, but you're very unlikely to start doing it until your weapons are either gone or you are too hot to shoot.

Why shoot when you can smash, after all? Unless it comes with risk.

That's like streaks. Streaks don't hit 100% of the time. They only fire when they cannot miss. That doesn't mean shooting streaks that whip behind you or spin around the enemy in a physics defying way about 9 times before slamming up the mech's rear end.

The old streaks were pretty good. Sure they fired when they weren't guaranteed to hit, but at least they didn't defy physics. That's a good compromise considering that they refused to fire most of the time on tabletop. Instead, they fire just about all the time and with the right conditions you can fire streaks at an enemy behind you, and literally have the Streaks do a 180 over your shoulder and slam into them. Yet Streaks aren't supposed to be any more agile than basic SRMs (which are supposed to be guided).

Why use SRMs, when streaks always hit? No risk, pure reward.

Melee if it is brought back needs to keep the risk. Even with what limited implementation it had before there were risks. For example a Raven 4X drop-kicking an Atlas could knock the Atlas down. But about 3/4ths of the time, the Raven fell over too as a direct result of it.

[Varent]

Koniving, on 15 March 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

The problem with that is doing so essentially removes the risk/reward part of the equation. Very high risk means you won't spam it. The slight reward is great, but you're very unlikely to start doing it until your weapons are either gone or you are too hot to shoot.

Why shoot when you can smash, after all? Unless it comes with risk.

That's like streaks. Streaks don't hit 100% of the time. They only fire when they cannot miss. That doesn't mean shooting streaks that whip behind you or spin around the enemy in a physics defying way about 9 times before slamming up the mech's rear end.

The old streaks were pretty good. Sure they fired when they weren't guaranteed to hit, but at least they didn't defy physics. That's a good compromise considering that they refused to fire most of the time on tabletop. Instead, they fire just about all the time and with the right conditions you can fire streaks at an enemy behind you, and literally have the Streaks do a 180 over your shoulder and slam into them. Yet Streaks aren't supposed to be any more agile than basic SRMs (which are supposed to be guided).

Why use SRMs, when streaks always hit? No risk, pure reward.

Melee if it is brought back needs to keep the risk. Even with what limited implementation it had before there were risks. For example a Raven 4X drop-kicking an Atlas could knock the Atlas down. But about 3/4ths of the time, the Raven fell over too as a direct result of it.

why... does it need to have a risk?

If everyone can melee and everyone gets the ability then its then even. Allowing mechs to have bonuses for having arms does nothing but give hands a bonus.

[Koniving]

GoTeamVenture, on 15 March 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

One use that could be implemented for hands right away deals with jammed autocannons. I'm going from memory here, but I think in TT if a UAC jammed, a mech could use its hand the following turn to unjam it. I don't know if the animation in game would be possible, but at the very least if a mech had a hand maybe the time it takes for a UAC to become unjammed could be reduced.

UACs were jammed for the match; basically if it jammed it remained jammed and that was it. You had to go to a mechbay or mobile field base to have the weapon unjammed by techs. I can't agree or disagree with McGral as I never used the RACs but it doesn't seem like a good idea to have allowed field unjamming of that weapon.

I do know of a specific use of hands, however. In Heir to the Dragon, the Victor using a Pontiac 100 manually reloaded the AC/20 with cassettes. It was done by hand. If I remember the cassettes slipped out of a port on the right front torso which the hand grabbed and then slapped into the arm in a pre-programmed movement. This caused interruptions in being able to use its arm lasers. There was also mention that occasionally it would cause problems with its ammo feed if the hand actuator wasn't calibrated just right (slightly crushing the cassette in the process or not feeding it in all the way).

The Battlemaster by actual art carried a hand-held cannon and spare cassettes externally.

(A "cassette" is a magazine whose contents are spent during a 'single shot' or 'firing' of the weapon. This is specifically for burst-fire style Autocannons. It is also for magazines for Rifles, though rifles were single shot weapons and slow to chamber the next round. A cassette contains exactly enough ammunition to reach the weapon's damage rating. For example a Crusher Super Heavy Cannon 150mm AC/20 uses 10 shots to make 20 damage (each shot being 2 damage), as such each cassette contains 10 shells. For a comparison, an AC/2 typically had 45 cassettes per ton of ammo. Since a Blackjack uses twin Whirlwind-L AC/2s a rough estimate of shots per cassette would be about 80 to 100. However Blackjacks appear to be belt-fed fully automatics and do not use cassettes.)
Whirlwind-L = 32mm (Binding force) BlackJack BJ-1
Whirlwind-L = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Blackjack BJ-1

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

why... does it need to have a risk?

If everyone can melee and everyone gets the ability then its then even. Allowing mechs to have bonuses for having arms does nothing but give hands a bonus.

Easy.
Why bring two AC/20s, when I can do a kick and do 20 damage accompanied by a punch for 10 and get no heat?
What if I decided to keep smashing the punch button as I went 'through' you over and over again? And when knockdowns are back, would you be happy if a Dragon punched you to the ground over and over and over and over and over and over and over and oh shit you're dead...

o.O;

[Varent]

Koniving, on 15 March 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

UACs were jammed for the match; basically if it jammed it remained jammed and that was it. You had to go to a mechbay or mobile field base to have the weapon unjammed by techs. I can't agree or disagree with McGral as I never used the RACs but it doesn't seem like a good idea to have allowed field unjamming of that weapon.

I do know of a specific use of hands, however. In Heir to the Dragon, the Victor using a Pontiac 100 manually reloaded the AC/20 with cassettes. It was done by hand. If I remember the cassettes slipped out of a port on the right front torso which the hand grabbed and then slapped into the arm in a pre-programmed movement. This caused interruptions in being able to use its arm lasers. There was also mention that occasionally it would cause problems with its ammo feed if the hand actuator wasn't calibrated just right (slightly crushing the cassette in the process or not feeding it in all the way).

The Battlemaster by actual art carried a hand-held cannon and spare cassettes externally.

(A "cassette" is a magazine whose contents are spent during a 'single shot' or 'firing' of the weapon. This is specifically for burst-fire style Autocannons. It is also for magazines for Rifles, though rifles were single shot weapons and slow to chamber the next round. A cassette contains exactly enough ammunition to reach the weapon's damage rating. For example a Crusher Super Heavy Cannon 150mm AC/20 uses 10 shots to make 20 damage (each shot being 2 damage), as such each cassette contains 10 shells. For a comparison, an AC/2 typically had 45 cassettes per ton of ammo. Since a Blackjack uses twin Whirlwind-L AC/2s a rough estimate of shots per cassette would be about 80 to 100. However Blackjacks appear to be belt-fed fully automatics and do not use cassettes.)
Whirlwind-L = 32mm (Binding force) BlackJack BJ-1
Whirlwind-L = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Blackjack BJ-1



Easy.
Why bring two AC/20s, when I can do a kick and do 20 damage accompanied by a punch for 10 and get no heat?
What if I decided to keep smashing the punch button as I went 'through' you over and over again? And when knockdowns are back, would you be happy if a Dragon punched you to the ground over and over and over and over and over and over and over and oh shit you're dead...

o.O;

I would love it? Keep in mind it takes the ability to close that distance and you can attack them as well. Lets change that whole scenario.

A dragon punches me. I punch them back. An epic brawl ensues trading blows back and forth.

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

I would love it? Keep in mind it takes the ability to close that distance and you can attack them as well. Lets change that whole scenario.

A dragon punches me. I punch them back. An epic brawl ensues trading blows back and forth.

So, the same thing that happens with the current game when pushing, just exchange the AC20 for a kick and the AC10/PPC for a punch.

If they implemented some sort of gyro overload, which took recoil/firing, damage, jumping and speed into accout, I could certainly get behind it. Kicking would have a larger effect than an AC20, but a punch would have less. Fudge around with numbers, but it gives both an advantage and disadvantage to both the attacker and the recipient.

It could also be used for knockdowns when you go over. Something to add more depth, and a risk to alpha striking.

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 March 2014 - 08:00 PM.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 15 March 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

So, the same thing that happens with the current game when pushing, just exchange the AC20 for a kick and the AC10/PPC for a punch.

If they implemented some sort of gyro overload, which took recoil/firing, damage, jumping and speed into accout, I could certainly get behind it. Kicking would have a larger effect than an AC20, but a punch would have less. Fudge around with numbers, but it gives both an advantage and disadvantage to both the attacker and the recipient.

It could also be used for knockdowns when you go over. Something to add more depth, and a risk to alpha striking.

I want to clothes line a light mech as its running past and watch it rag doll.

[Mcgral18]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

I want to clothes line a light mech as its running past and watch it rag doll.

And an AC40 fall down when it alphas at 100% throttle. For each action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[Koniving]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

I would love it? Keep in mind it takes the ability to close that distance and you can attack them as well. Lets change that whole scenario.

A dragon punches me. I punch them back. An epic brawl ensues trading blows back and forth.

Okay, let's assume for a minute you're in a quickdraw or another dragon so you don't have a weight disadvantage. Sooner or later one of you two will topple over. But now we've got Tekken Tag Tournament except LRMs keep bombarding you and if you turn away you'll be knocked down.

This isn't rock'em sock'em robots.

Trust me, I think melee would be great too, but it needs limits.

The example in the video earlier is a fairly solid one. Run towards someone, clothesline them with your fist to knock 'em down. Then loop around and shoot them as they are getting up. That's fine and fun.

But if I can stand there, punch you down and then punch you again before you can get back up, where's the fun in that? And if I have no risk if I miss, why carry weapons at all? Just throw on a standard 400 engine, run up to people and smash them down. We'll have the bowling Awesome again.

Which if you didn't see it, the Awesome 9M had a great trait at the beginning. Throw in a standard 400 engine, modest armor, no weapons, and you could run into a map with 8 Atlases and knock them all down for the rest of your team to blast to death.


This is minor abuse. Imagine what could happen with spam-worthy melee buttons? If it has risk, then it won't be as abused. If the risk is too light or non-existent, abuse away.

Edit: (Don't know why I put "not" instead of "now.)

Edited by Koniving, 15 March 2014 - 08:12 PM.

[Varent]

Koniving, on 15 March 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Okay, let's assume for a minute you're in a quickdraw or another dragon so you don't have a weight disadvantage. Sooner or later one of you two will topple over. But not we've got Tekken Tag Tournament except LRMs keep bombarding you and if you turn away you'll be knocked down.

This isn't rock'em sock'em robots.

Trust me, I think melee would be great too, but it needs limits.

The example in the video earlier is a fairly solid one. Run towards someone, clothesline them with your fist to knock 'em down. Then loop around and shoot them as they are getting up. That's fine and fun.

But if I can stand there, punch you down and then punch you again before you can get back up, where's the fun in that? And if I have no risk if I miss, why carry weapons at all? Just throw on a standard 400 engine, run up to people and smash them down. We'll have the bowling Awesome again.

Which if you didn't see it, the Awesome 9M had a great trait at the beginning. Throw in a standard 400 engine, modest armor, no weapons, and you could run into a map with 8 Atlases and knock them all down for the rest of your team to blast to death.


This is minor abuse. Imagine what could happen with spam-worthy melee buttons? If it has risk, then it won't be as abused. If the risk is too light or non-existent, abuse away.

Take away knockdown then. Just put in melee and give it to everyone.

Every modern shooter has melee.

We need it.

[Wiley Coyote]

[Koniving]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

Take away knockdown then. Just put in melee and give it to everyone.

Every modern shooter has melee.

We need it.

Knockdown is a key part of melee, though. As is knockdown a key and necessary part of Mechwarrior Online.

Melee however is not. But with knockdowns, a form of melee that can't be spammed is given to us. Ramming, clotheslining (lariats, the act of holding your arm out as some pesky pain runs by and hits their head on your arm) and drop-kicks.

And I gotta say, I miss having the ability to solo an Atlas with a Raven 4X by drop-kicking, turning around, AC/20 to the eye. And as the Atlas goes to turn around, recharge the JJs and prep for another jump. Leap, drop-kick, another AC/20 to the eye. Victory.

What the game needed was a bit more weight and velocity into the mix, the ability for weapons to cause knockdowns, and a gyro that could withstand some abuse. That and more than 2 damage for a high speed/weight collision.

This isn't Hawken or Call of Duty. Even so, melee is a powerful weapon in Battletech that could kill a mech in a single hit with the right conditions. For Battletech's melee to be true to itself, in MWO that punch would be 20 damage and that kick would be 40 damage to cope with MWO's double armor. The average Victor had 15 points of armor on its arms.

Not to mention with the kind of game MWO is, melee in that form wouldn't really work out.

[Varent]

Koniving, on 15 March 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Knockdown is a key part of melee, though. As is knockdown a key and necessary part of Mechwarrior Online.

Melee however is not. But with knockdowns, a form of melee that can't be spammed is given to us. Ramming, clotheslining (lariats, the act of holding your arm out as some pesky pain runs by and hits their head on your arm) and drop-kicks.

And I gotta say, I miss having the ability to solo an Atlas with a Raven 4X by drop-kicking, turning around, AC/20 to the eye. And as the Atlas goes to turn around, recharge the JJs and prep for another jump. Leap, drop-kick, another AC/20 to the eye. Victory.

What the game needed was a bit more weight and velocity into the mix, the ability for weapons to cause knockdowns, and a gyro that could withstand some abuse. That and more than 2 damage for a high speed/weight collision.

This isn't Hawken or Call of Duty. Even so, melee is a powerful weapon in Battletech that could kill a mech in a single hit with the right conditions. For Battletech's melee to be true to itself, in MWO that punch would be 20 damage and that kick would be 40 damage to cope with MWO's double armor. The average Victor had 15 points of armor on its arms.

Not to mention with the kind of game MWO is, melee in that form wouldn't really work out.

honestly I dont feel we need knockdown at all. WOuld it be nice sure. But its abuseable.

Melee however in and of itself is not abuseable. It adds a use to hand actuators and a more interesting dynamic to the game.

we also dont need it to be true to BT stats. Just simply allowing you to punch someone and deal perhaps 5% of the mechs weight in damage would be enough for it to be useful in a pinch.

Edited by Varent, 15 March 2014 - 08:33 PM.

[Kilo 40]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

Take away knockdown then. Just put in melee and give it to everyone.

Every modern shooter has melee.

We need it.

why is it "needed"?

[Varent]

Kilo 40, on 15 March 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

why is it "needed"?

1) Name a modern day shooter that doesnt have it.
2) Explain the use of the hand actuator
3) More dynamic game play

[Kilo 40]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

1) Name a modern day shooter that doesnt have it.
2) Explain the use of the hand actuator
3) More dynamic game play

1) irrelevant. because other games have melee doesn't mean this one needs it as well. but to answer your question, I'd say the two most comparable games to this one, world of tanks, and hawken, don't have melee as far as I know.

2) it would be just as easy to remove the hand actuator

3) pushing a button that causes a punching animation instead of releasing a group of srms doesn't make for more dynamic game play.

seriously. MechWarrior with melee combat got old pretty quickly the first time I played it decades ago.

[Varent]

Kilo 40, on 15 March 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

1) irrelevant. because other games have melee doesn't mean this one needs it as well. but to answer your question, I'd say the two most comparable games to this one, world of tanks, and hawken, don't have melee as far as I know.

2) it would be just as easy to remove the hand actuator

3) pushing a button that causes a punching animation instead of releasing a group of srms doesn't make for more dynamic game play.

seriously. MechWarrior with melee combat got old pretty quickly the first time I played it decades ago.

1. It would probly push this game to the next level and attract more players. SO yes, relevant.

2. Or you could add more to the game instead of take away.

3. I disagree. I would find great amusement in walking up and mauling someone.

[no one]

Koniving, on 15 March 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

*Strike!*

I wouldn't call it "critical" but it'd be nice to have some physical combat in MWO. Charges could be implemented quick and dirty. Way I'd handle it in MWO :

1 - Line yourself up to intercept target 'Mech.
2 - Initiate charge by double-taping and holding 'w'.
3 - Your 'Mech then 'leans in' and, if it wasn't already running, accelerates you to your top speed.

• While charging you either can not turn or have a considerably limited turning radius.
  
• You can fire no weapons while charging.
  
• You can cancel a charge by releasing 'w', at which point you decelerate at half rate to walking speed before the charge stops and you regain full control.

4 - If you don't stop your charge you will either -

• a. - collide with the enemy 'Mech. Where your collision mesh interacts with the other 'Mech, damage is dealt to your target equal to (some number)*(your mass)*(your kph)^2. You take damage equivalent to 1/8th this. Slight risk of falling over.
  
• b. - collide with a wall or something similar. You take damage equivalent to 1/4th the damage you would have dealt in a successful charge and have a high risk of falling over.

But yeah, I should probably stop ruminating over things I can't influence or change.
I would also like jumpjets that produce heat and are useful so I can engage in glorious DFAs without the benefit of a ramp.

Edited by no one, 15 March 2014 - 09:22 PM.