68 replies to this topic

[Kilo 40]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

1. It would probly push this game to the next level and attract more players. SO yes, relevant.

2. Or you could add more to the game instead of take away.

3. I disagree. I would find great amusement in walking up and mauling someone.

you're speaking in marketing talk. punching wouldn't take the game to the next level. if anything it would just dumb it down. heat management, crit slots, weight, etc... all get less important when people start building WWE 3050 edition mechs.

[Varent]

Kilo 40, on 15 March 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

you're speaking in marketing talk. punching wouldn't take the game to the next level. if anything it would just dumb it down. heat management, crit slots, weight, etc... all get less important when people start building WWE 3050 edition mechs.

actually im speaking as to what would interest me as a gamer. I would probly want to play more and more of my friends would with that. Many of those I know often fantasize about using a hatchetman to attack someone.

That said the end goal of a game is to make money and attract gamers. This would do that.

It would not get less important. It would simply add a new dynamic to the game.

[Kilo 40]

again...pushing a button that causes a punching animation instead of say, releasing a group of srms, or firing a pulse laser, doesn't make for a more dynamic game.

I don't mean the following towards you personally, so please don't take it that way, but the idea of melee fighting mechs is just stupid IMO. But I'm one of those people who hate mechs with hands in the first place because it always struck me as dumb and silly looking.

[Varent]

Kilo 40, on 15 March 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

again...pushing a button that causes a punching animation instead of say, releasing a group of srms, or firing a pulse laser, doesn't make for a more dynamic game.

I don't mean the following towards you personally, so please don't take it that way, but the idea of melee fighting mechs is just stupid IMO. But I'm one of those people who hate mechs with hands in the first place because it always struck me as dumb and silly looking.

Fair enough. Im sorry I disagree. Ive been waiting for a melee mech game for years. They have described it in every battletech book and its always epic. That said it would be different because it gives you an option when you run out of ammo and also allows you to build a mech around melee wich could be interesting.

[Mcgral18]

Kilo 40, on 15 March 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

again...pushing a button that causes a punching animation instead of say, releasing a group of srms, or firing a pulse laser, doesn't make for a more dynamic game.

I don't mean the following towards you personally, so please don't take it that way, but the idea of melee fighting mechs is just stupid IMO. But I'm one of those people who hate mechs with hands in the first place because it always struck me as dumb and silly looking.

It's been in the IP for...30 years? I'm for it, but balancing it would take an effort PGI hasn't shown in the past.

Also, are 30 foot bipedal tanks not silly in the first place? You simply don't question BattleTech logic, or BattleTech physics.

[Kilo 40]

Mcgral18, on 15 March 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

It's been in the IP for...30 years?

and as far as I can remember, only in table top. or at least not in any PC games. most likely because it would look silly.

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Also, are 30 foot bipedal tanks not silly in the first place? You simply don't question BattleTech logic, or BattleTech physics.

silly yes, but it's a tad more logical in my mind. It's a tank built to fight other tanks. giant punching robots is just over the line for me since it logistically doesn't make sense in my mind (does the pilot also through a punch to make the mech do it? or is there a "jab" button, and a separate uppercut button? perhaps a headbutt, and a kick button too).

hell, the titanfall trailer that shows the "commander" or whatever he is, using his mech to "point" in the direction the other guys want to go, just drives me nuts for the same reasons I don't like the whole melee thing.

[YueFei]

Kilo 40, on 15 March 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

silly yes, but it's a tad more logical in my mind. It's a tank built to fight other tanks. giant punching robots is just over the line for me since it logistically doesn't make sense in my mind (does the pilot also through a punch to make the mech do it? or is there a "jab" button, and a separate uppercut button? perhaps a headbutt, and a kick button too).

hell, the titanfall trailer that shows the "commander" or whatever he is, using his mech to "point" in the direction the other guys want to go, just drives me nuts for the same reasons I don't like the whole melee thing.

Whatever interface the pilots use, hands are useful for more than just punching. They've been used to pick up items, climb, clear a road of debris or destroyed vehicles. Just general all-around utility.

Infantrymen carry a shovel. It's not a glamorous piece of equipment. But it has marvelous utility.

From a physics stand-point, punching and kicking *should* be able to deal appreciable damage. There's a difference between kinetic energy and momentum, and a punch with low KE, but high MV, can still deal damage because the frame mounting the armor can buckle under that kind of stress, even if the armor itself holds up to the KE.

As for finding melee silly, although it happens rarely in modern combat, it still happens occasionally.

Having it in this game would expand on a player's choices. Done right, melee would enhance the game, not detract from it.

[Kilo 40]

YueFei, on 15 March 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

As for finding melee silly, although it happens rarely in modern combat, it still happens occasionally.

I don't find melee itself silly. just in the context of giant robots of the future.

[YueFei]

Kilo 40, on 15 March 2014 - 10:19 PM, said:

I don't find melee itself silly. just in the context of giant robots of the future.

Just go with it. It's a fantasy anyways.

And giant combat robots are already a very silly concept. I didn't quite appreciate exactly how silly it was until a few years back, seeing people break down the math and physics behind a 10 meter tall bipedal war machine, and how awful it would perform compared to a tank built with the same technologies.

You can also go crazy with a giant tank concept, check out the sci-fi setting "Bolo", a series of gigantic AI-driven tanks. Aim-bot accuracy, lightning reflexes, and the ability to one-shot almost anything within line of sight with its main cannon. These tanks don't bother rolling over berms and exposing their underbellies. They launch expendable probes up to spot, lay down indirect missile fire and artillery, and when the enemy isn't looking exactly at the spot they're gonna pop up, they just destroy the berm in front of themselves and drive through it.

[wanderer]

Khobai, on 15 March 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

No. Hand actuators take up 1 crit slot and no tonnage. Yet you want to give them a powerful game changing ability? No frickin way that would be balanced.

All mechs should be able to make punch attacks regardless of whether they have hand actuators or not. The only thing hand actuators should do is let you use clubs, hatchets, and swords.

You should also suffer melee damage penalties for each actuator thats missing or destroyed. So if youre missing a hand actuator, it should be a -10% damage penalty. If youre missing both a hand actuator and a lower arm actuator, it should be a -20% damage penalty.

Really thats all hand actuators should do. Anything more than that is way too much for 1 crit slot.

In TT, 'Mechs without a full set of actuators (or actuator damage) suffer reduced attack strength when using melee attacks,.

Mind you, some attacks didn't care as much, like charges or DFAs- but those were harder to aim and damaged both attacker and defender (if they hit). But kicks and punches definitely did. Nor could you push (shove) a target without two hands properly, and clubbing someone with a severed limb was right out.

Koniving, on 15 March 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

I mention that specific one because it happened. I was gloriously happy. The MPL melted the cockpit armor and the pilot lost consciousness. After I blasted the Marauder several times, I turned around and tried to kicked the Mercury with the unconscious pilot that was fallen. I missed and fell on my ass.

You didn't figure in the -4 to hit a immobilized target, did you? Or the -2 for the "prone, adjacent target"?

Because you literally could not miss the target, even if you ran up to it.

Base 3 for a kick, -4 for immobile (pilot out cold), -2 for a prone target in adjacent hex, +2 for a run = -1 or better on 2d6. You'd have to have a base piloting of NINE to whiff the kick, and a regular pilot is Piloting FIVE.

[AlexEss]

Ok.. Why we should not have melee

1: Every single mech would have to be re-rigged with a new skeleton. New animations and a brand new set of weapons
2. A new balancing pass would have to be done
3: A new fall over/stumble mechanic would have to be invented
4: This would have to be tested and tested again

All of this would cost time and money... Might be a feature for some future expansion-style.. well.. expansion like Solaris once the current laundry list of stuff is cleared.


Simply put right now there is no real point to do anything with them as the time it woudl eat up is better spent elsewhere.

Edited by AlexEss, 16 March 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Koniving]

wanderer, on 16 March 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

In TT, 'Mechs without a full set of actuators (or actuator damage) suffer reduced attack strength when using melee attacks,.

Mind you, some attacks didn't care as much, like charges or DFAs- but those were harder to aim and damaged both attacker and defender (if they hit). But kicks and punches definitely did. Nor could you push (shove) a target without two hands properly, and clubbing someone with a severed limb was right out.



You didn't figure in the -4 to hit a immobilized target, did you? Or the -2 for the "prone, adjacent target"?

Because you literally could not miss the target, even if you ran up to it.

Base 3 for a kick, -4 for immobile (pilot out cold), -2 for a prone target in adjacent hex, +2 for a run = -1 or better on 2d6. You'd have to have a base piloting of NINE to whiff the kick, and a regular pilot is Piloting FIVE.

I failed to mention there was a Mech Taser employed during the fight. Though it failed to shut me down, I had a +2 modifier for being tazed, most of my movement points went into turning around, and the heat spike caused me to hit a nasty penalty (single heatsinks on an Atlas K).

Far as figuring what and where, that's all done automatically in Megamek, complete with neat descriptions using a mod I've got that breaks down the 10 seconds of each turn.

[Koniving]

no one, on 15 March 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

I wouldn't call it "critical" but it'd be nice to have some physical combat in MWO. Charges could be implemented quick and dirty. Way I'd handle it in MWO :

1 - Line yourself up to intercept target 'Mech.
2 - Initiate charge by double-taping and holding 'w'.
3 - Your 'Mech then 'leans in' and, if it wasn't already running, accelerates you to your top speed.

• While charging you either can not turn or have a considerably limited turning radius.
  
• You can fire no weapons while charging.
  
• You can cancel a charge by releasing 'w', at which point you decelerate at half rate to walking speed before the charge stops and you regain full control.

4 - If you don't stop your charge you will either -

• a. - collide with the enemy 'Mech. Where your collision mesh interacts with the other 'Mech, damage is dealt to your target equal to (some number)*(your mass)*(your kph)^2. You take damage equivalent to 1/8th this. Slight risk of falling over.
  
• b. - collide with a wall or something similar. You take damage equivalent to 1/4th the damage you would have dealt in a successful charge and have a high risk of falling over.

But yeah, I should probably stop ruminating over things I can't influence or change.

I would also like jumpjets that produce heat and are useful so I can engage in glorious DFAs without the benefit of a ramp.

In the long run I think the old way of simply running past your opponent and holding your arm out or colliding with the opponent on your own is sufficient enough without providing abuseable speed boosts. After all if you need that extra speed use a MASC.

They came up with a math equation to fix collisions right before they took them out. It was going to be a combination of tonnage, mass and velocity. I found it interesting that it mentioned both tonnage and mass... As if something that's "bigger" but the same tonnage would have the advantage. o.O; If that's the case, the Trebuchet might be on par with the 55 ton mechs due to its height? Who knows.

The only issue with the original system is the receiving mech took up to 2 damage and the dealing mech barely ever received 1 damage. So it'll need a bit more damage associated with it, or add more damage to the falls themselves (which never dealt damage).

[Koniving]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

Ive been waiting for a melee mech game for years.

Cyborg Justice.

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

They have described it in every battletech book and its always epic.

And in battletech books there are risks. You break your own arms, break leg actuators, etc. if you keep doing it. Thus risks.

[Mystere]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

actually im speaking as to what would interest me as a gamer.

Well then, I would rather have the following first before melee:

• bigger damage as a result of collisions
  
• knockdowns
  
• Death From Above

[Khobai]

Its highly unlikely existing mechs will ever be able to do melee attacks. It would require completely reanimating every single mech which is not something PGI is ever going to do. Atlases punching othermechs is just never going to happen.

Thats not to say we wont get mechs that can make melee attacks, but its likely to be limited to mechs like the hatchetman, which are specifically known for having melee weapons.

As for what hand actuators can do, I think a small bonus to getting up from knockdown or hill climbing is probably the most realistic benefit.

[no one]

Koniving, on 16 March 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

In the long run I think the old way of simply running past your opponent and holding your arm out or colliding with the opponent on your own is sufficient enough without providing abuseable speed boosts.

I didn't suggest a speed boost, just that a charging 'Mech should move up to it's top speed. The reason your slowdown is longer is because you've 'leaned in' or braced your 'Mech for the charge so you're less likely to be thrown off balance in the impact.

Imagine a football player rushing forward and trying to plant a shoulder in someone's gut, then missing. They may be no faster than if they were running normally, but their center of mass is too far forward for them to recover the charge easily.

The other reason I suggested it as an independent initiated action is that you want it to be a tradeoff. Something that carries inherent risk and requires you to line up and commit to it enough that we don't see a bunch of devs in dragon-bowling circles. Something you might normally only attempt after both arms of your 'Mech's arms have been blown off.

Edited by no one, 16 March 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[wanderer]

Koniving, on 16 March 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

I failed to mention there was a Mech Taser employed during the fight. Though it failed to shut me down, I had a +2 modifier for being tazed, most of my movement points went into turning around, and the heat spike caused me to hit a nasty penalty (single heatsinks on an Atlas K).

Far as figuring what and where, that's all done automatically in Megamek, complete with neat descriptions using a mod I've got that breaks down the 10 seconds of each turn.

OK, that's different. That pushes it into the range where rolling snake eyes could cause a whiff, barely.

[Xarian]

Khobai, on 16 March 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Its highly unlikely existing mechs will ever be able to do melee attacks. It would require completely reanimating every single mech which is not something PGI is ever going to do. Atlases punching othermechs is just never going to happen.

No. Adding 2-3 animations for punches and kicks does not constitute "re-animating every single mech". Nor is animating these things particularly hard.

Hell, I was animating punches and kicks using inverse kinematics 10+ years ago with no experience whatsoever. PGI already has skilled animators - putting in these animations would take them a month at most, and another month or two (along with playtesting) to get the visual kinks out. The simple act of adding in punches/kicks is trivial.

The more difficult part would be implementing physics on melee attacks - mechs unbalancing themselves based on their weights, where their arms are situated, where they're moving and what sorts of hills they're on, etc. Once knockdown gets implemented, however, the physics system used should be able to handle this sort of thing relatively easily. It's just a matter of implementing some pseudo-realistic equations for momentum and using the locations of the hands/arms to determine how that momentum affects the mech.

Quote

Thats not to say we wont get mechs that can make melee attacks, but its likely to be limited to mechs like the hatchetman, which are specifically known for having melee weapons.

4 keybinds - left arm punch, right arm punch, left leg kick, right leg kick. punches would be replaced with weapon swings if the mech had a weapon in that arm.
Mechs without lower arm actuators couldn't punch.
Attempting to kick with both legs at the same time would make you fall over.
It's an extremely simple concept.

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As for what hand actuators can do, I think a small bonus to getting up from knockdown or hill climbing is probably the most realistic benefit.

A large bonus to getting up from knockdown would be appropriate for lower arm actuators, and an equally large bonus for hands. Mechs without either should have a rough time getting up - say, 5 seconds with a -1.5 second bonus for lower arms, and an additional -1.5 second bonus for having lower hands.

A bonus to hill climbing doesn't make much sense in either case. Mechs don't ambulate like gorillas.

Edited by Xarian, 16 March 2014 - 01:52 PM.

[Khobai]

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No. Adding 2-3 animations for punches and kicks does not constitute "re-animating every single mech". Nor is animating these things particularly hard.

clearly you know nothing about animation.