74 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

Ulric says so because it is true. Which is why Dalk Carns brought it up in the first place. Any talk of genocide of warriors would remind the Clans of the Wolverines. It would get to the Grand Council, that was the entire point of the "investigation".

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 March 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Ulric says so because it is true. Which is why Dalk Carns brought it up in the first place. Any talk of genocide of warriors would remind the Clans of the Wolverines. It would get to the Grand Council, that was the entire point of the "investigation".

The guilty man says the only thing that can save his life is true, not withstanding he is the only one who does, ergo it's true?

Isn't it possible that there was no Crusader conspiracy. Isn't it possibly that this is simply the case of a guilty man caught and found out by his peers.

Why do we buy into it has to be a conspiracy?

We can see there was no threat to the Truce, we can see he was charged within the Clan laws of a crime, judged by his peers and found guilty.

But because Ulric the great cannot possibly do any wrong, it must be a conspiracy?

Dalk Carns charged him of a crime against Clan Wolf as was his duty to do so, could he not have just been doing his job?

There is no reason for this matter to leave Clan Wolf, (and I have shown similar instance in canon where it did not) but Ulric chose to because it was the only chance he had to prolong his life.

He was found guilty by a majority of his peers, not 16 to 17 landslide, but a majority none the less.

There was no conspiracy, he was just guilty and in his desperation to live, he was willing to sacrifice the entire history and culture of Clan Wolf.

[Jaroth Corbett]

OMG are you missing this on purpose? GENOCIDE sparks reminders of Clan Wolverine. IT WILL GET BROUGHT UP IN THE GRAND COUNCIL.

[Gyrok]

Dalk Carns could have easily taken it to the Grand Council on a whim...you have no case...Ulric would have had 2 trials instead of one...why fight the same fight twice? No one intelligent would do such a thing.

Edited by Gyrok, 17 March 2014 - 04:44 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 March 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

OMG are you missing this on purpose? GENOCIDE sparks reminders of Clan Wolverine. IT WILL GET BROUGHT UP IN THE GRAND COUNCIL.

That's what Ulric represents sure, but its not the case in any other canon. I'm not missing the point, I am challenging it's validity.

Genocide is the indiscrimate slaughter of people, not just warriors. Clan Wolverine used WMD on a city, that included the Snow Ravens genetic heritage but also millions of civilians and valuable manufacturing centres. It was a henious crime and rightly charged.

Smoke Jaguars let millions of their civilians (across all castes) starve and die. It to was a henious crime (by our standards). This was considered by the Grand Council and determined as the Smoke Jaguars internal affairs. The precedent is right there for a charge of genocide against Clan Wolf warriors.

In both instances millions died by deliberate action (genocide), one was Clan v Clan, one was internal. The Grand Council only had authority to intervene in the Clan v Clan instance. Even if the Grand Council did hear of it second hand, they have no mandate to intervene and whether Ulric won or lost internally, Clan Wolf could say "butt out, nothing to do you"

There is no immediate basis to believe this matter would go to the Clan Council apart from the guilty man saying it would anyway so he did not have to fight for his own defense.

I submit there was no Crusader conspiracy, just a guilty man clinging to his life.

[Jaroth Corbett]

And I have given enough evidence to refute that. Let the facts speak for themselves. Good luck with your future endeavors.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 March 2014 - 05:26 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 March 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

And I have given enough evidence to refute that. Let the facts speak for themselves. Good luck with your future endeavors.

LOL, OK. I have shown the facts too

Fact 1 - Ulric was charged by the Clan Wolf Loremaster of 3 crimes against Clan Wolf (although admittably, the third was a surpise to everyone). The Loremaster of Clan Wolf cannot lay charges against an Il Khan, Ulric could have asserted his authority as Il Khan and crushed the charges.

Fact - 2 Ulric did not need to answer any of the charges, he chose to as he thought it would crush the Crusader movement in Clan Wolf, he got blindsided by the third charge.

Fact - 3 This was still an internal matter for Clan Wolf, Ulric is on record as saying if he contested the charges it would be Wolf against Wolf.

Fact - 4 Ulric cites the "grand Crusader conspiracy" (my words) as the reason why Natasha and Phelan must support him when he takes this internal matter to the Grand Council, as he expects to loose. In the end he did lose and was found guilty.

Fact 5 - Once the Wolves declare they will fight for Ulric, Ulric picks a fight with Clan Jade Falcon. Again ostensibly we are told this is because Clan Jade Falcon were about to break the Truce and plunge the Clan / IS war into renewed war.

Fact 6 - There is no evidence in canon that the Jade Falcons (or anyone else for that matter) were about to break the Truce.

Fact 7 - The Wardens enjoyed majority votes and toumans in the Invasion zone and no assault on the Inner Sphere would suceed without their support. At least 3 of the Clans would have activily gone for any Crusaders rear areas had they left the Invasion zone.

Ergo, there was no Grand Crusader Conspiracy that imperilled the Truce of Tukayyid and a guilty man was found guilty by his peers. In order to save his life, he was willing to sacrifice Clan Wolf so that he did not have to face a challenge himself and manipulated it so.

[Jaroth Corbett]

1. Yes he could have because Ulric was Khan of the Wolves at one point. Ulric had already dealt with the first two. The third one was not on the indictment. The seriousness of it made Ulric forward it to the Grand Council because he knew it would end up there anyway. Watch Natasha's,Marielle's & Vlad's reactions in the source I quoted in the other thread.

2. The first two no. The third one yes.

3. For the first two.

4. Because he could count. As I said before, there were more Crusaders than Wardens in the Grand Council so he knew he would lose a vote.

5. Yes

6. The Red Corsair.

7. Wrong. That is how Ulric lost the vote.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 17 March 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

LOL, OK. I have shown the facts too

Fact 1 - Ulric was charged by the Clan Wolf Loremaster of 3 crimes against Clan Wolf (although admittably, the third was a surpise to everyone). The Loremaster of Clan Wolf cannot lay charges against an Il Khan, Ulric could have asserted his authority as Il Khan and crushed the charges.

Fact - 2 Ulric did not need to answer any of the charges, he chose to as he thought it would crush the Crusader movement in Clan Wolf, he got blindsided by the third charge.

Fact - 3 This was still an internal matter for Clan Wolf, Ulric is on record as saying if he contested the charges it would be Wolf against Wolf.

Fact - 4 Ulric cites the "grand Crusader conspiracy" (my words) as the reason why Natasha and Phelan must support him when he takes this internal matter to the Grand Council, as he expects to loose. In the end he did lose and was found guilty.

Fact 5 - Once the Wolves declare they will fight for Ulric, Ulric picks a fight with Clan Jade Falcon. Again ostensibly we are told this is because Clan Jade Falcon were about to break the Truce and plunge the Clan / IS war into renewed war.

Fact 6 - There is no evidence in canon that the Jade Falcons (or anyone else for that matter) were about to break the Truce.

Fact 7 - The Wardens enjoyed majority votes and toumans in the Invasion zone and no assault on the Inner Sphere would suceed without their support. At least 3 of the Clans would have activily gone for any Crusaders rear areas had they left the Invasion zone.

Ergo, there was no Grand Crusader Conspiracy that imperilled the Truce of Tukayyid and a guilty man was found guilty by his peers. In order to save his life, he was willing to sacrifice Clan Wolf so that he did not have to face a challenge himself and manipulated it so.

1. Have you ever considered appearances? Dismiss all charges and suspicion abounds. It would have been just as bad for him if he dismissed all charges, without at least hearing them. Not to mention, he explained away the first two charges which were officially announced. The third charge was not officially placed, so technically it was an underhanded blind side.

2. Look above for most of this.

3. The charge of Genocide was not an internal affair any longer. It would have, even if he stamped it out in his own clan (which he was technically no longer a part of as Ilkhan), a charge that large would eventually have made it's way to the Grand Council.

4. He was found guilty as a political move to try and continue the Invasion. Most everyone (actually, I think lore stats in an omniscient view, that everyone) knew they were fake charges. The Crusader's controlled the Council, and they wanted the invasion to continue. (It's no different than one of the Kings of England, who was told by the church that he couldn't divorce his wife. So, instead, he executed his queen, and just remarried. Same kinda deal here. For the record, the queen of only guilty of being his wife...)

5. Canon tells us that Jade Falcon had rebuilt and was stockpiling on one of their forward worlds. So, yes. Falcon did want the invasion to happen, and was ready to try and break the truce. I'm sure Jaguar would have tried to follow the Falcon as well, even if it pushed them thin.

6. Look at above comment. If the Falcons weren't ready to continue, and weren't looking for a way to break the truce, why did they stockpile on a forward world in a position to continue the invasion?

7. Recall that, offically, Ghost Bear are still Crusader at this time, and seemed to have been voting accordingly. (Can anyone post canon references on what the vote against Ulric was, and who voted what? Just, because I'm wondering.)


Ulric was a means to an end. They didn't like the fact that they (the clans) lost the Tukayyid battle. They wanted to dispute the trial, that the council had agreed to. The charge on Ulric was what the clans needed to break the truce, as if it was genocide (for the record, they still had the sides of the invasion areas to invade, and trials amongst themselves, refuting the Genocide charges) then the clans would see the truce of Tukayyid as invalid and illegal. Ulric was placed on a show trial, with fake charges drummed up, so the truce could be called off.



Also, all this has already been heavily gone through in this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...the-smart-guys/
A lot of Canon quotes was placed there proving these facts.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 March 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

1. Yes he could have because Ulric was Khan of the Wolves at one point. Ulric had already dealt with the first two. The third one was not on the indictment. The seriousness of it made Ulric forward it to the Grand Council because he knew it would end up there anyway. Watch Natasha's,Marielle's & Vlad's reactions in the source I quoted in the other thread.

2. The first two no. The third one yes.

3. For the first two.

4. Because he could count. As I said before, there were more Crusaders than Wardens in the Grand Council so he knew he would lose a vote.

5. Yes

6. The Red Corsair.

7. Wrong. That is how Ulric lost the vote.

1. There can only be 2 Khans, Ulric was technically above Clan Wolf. Ulric could be charged as a bloodnamed warrior of the Clan though, he still had obligations to the Clan through that mechanism and hence fell under the Clan Wolf Loremasters authority. However as Il Khan, he could have told him to rack off, I am above Clan Wolf on this subject.

The question then becomes, would Dalk have taken Clan Wolf's internal charge to Kael. It would be a big move. Even if he was successful, he is basically a martyr as Natsha and Phelan are going to tear him pieces. Indeed, what he risked doing so would be Clan Wolfs Khans being found unfit to rule and an unfavourable Grand Council vote that would see Clan Wolf facing far more than Clan Jade Falcon. I submit Dalk was not prepared to risk Clan Wolf for his personal crusade against Ulric.

2 & 3. We can already see these are internal Clan Wolf matters.

4. This is the same council and Khans that found him innocent after Tukayyid, there are no personnel changes that I am aware of (haven't done every clans succession though). If the Crusaders were "truly" out to get him they would have nailed him here and not hoped for a chance down the track. They didn't, they assessed the evidence and found him innocent of the charges in 3053. But suddenly, when the same body assesses new charges and new evidence they are incompetent and it's a conspiracy?

6. Red Corsair was Clan Wolf's 37th (39th?) Cluster wasn't it?

7. See 4. The Crusaders who hated him so desperatly and wanted him gone when they had the perfect opportunity to whitewash him and strip him of his Il Khanship said, ummm, no. Lets just leave them for a few years and see if we can make something up down the track. I find that incredibly hard to believe. More likely is that he was innocent of some charges, and guilty of others produced later.

There was no conspiracy, and hence it was not the reason for the Refusal War

Edited by Craig Steele, 17 March 2014 - 07:21 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 March 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

6. The Red Corsair.

And on this point, what if they had of succeeded?

Jade Falcon is still not able to actually break the Truce, the Steel Vipers and Wolves will tear them to shreds. Same with the Smoke Jaguars.

They didn't have the firepower to do both, so what do they actually do.

We can argue it was the first step, but theer were less Crusaders in 3057 than there were in 3052, Warden was ascending.

The Ghost Bears weren't going to go charging off, they'd find a reason to sit on the fence. Same with Diamond Shark. The Home Clans can cry all they like to come in but they would never get the votes, those left behind would block it.

The best the Jags and Falcons could hope for is a slow grind extending their flanks until the truce line was reached whether Ulric was Il Khan or not, Truce thrown out or not. This was definitly not preferred, they were blitzkreig type of guys and garrisoning more worlds was hardly what they wanted. There was not enough firepower to negate the Wardens in the Invasion zones.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 17 March 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

The best the Jags and Falcons could hope for is a slow grind extending their flanks until the truce line was reached ...

Thank you good sir for posting this information.

Now, recall what the "genocide" charge was again? How was it worded?
Let me help with that. Basically, the Genocide charge was that three generations of warriors were going to go to waste, unable to "fight", making the clans weak when the truce was over. Correct? Yet... they could still expand along the sides of the line, and fight amongst each other (which would still happen anyway). So... where is the dulling of skills and the waste of warriors?

Thus, by your own admission and statement, the charges against Ulric had to be false, and thus it was a political trial with almost a rigged outcome. The outcome was to break the truce of Tukayyid and continue the Invasion. An Invasion the Falcons were already prepared (proven through canon sources) to continue.

Edited by Tesunie, 17 March 2014 - 08:21 PM.

[Vanguard319]

I don't think the genocide charge was based around memories of the Wolverines. It has more to do with the life cycle of a clan warrior. Basically a clanner who earns the right to be a warrior becomes one around the age of 20, by age 30, you are considered past your prime and on the downslide, and by 40 you are retired into another caste or become Solahma if you haven't died, earned a bloodname, or committed a deed so heroic that your value as a warrior is recognized by the clan.

By comparison, the Inner Sphere follows a longer rotation cycle for it's soldiers. It's not unusual for an IS mechwarrior to remain active into their 60's (Anastasius Focht remained a certified mechwarrior into his nineties) This means that IS warriors retain more combat experience in time, and pass more of that experience and knowledge to green troops.

The genocide charge comes from the realization that in fifteen years, the majority of clan warriors who fought in operation revival will have retired to other castes, the new invasion will be fought by young, inexperienced warriors versus IS armies whose troops were blooded in the previous war, who now have technology and mechs closer to parity with clan mechs, (including omnimechs of their own) and unlike Revival, they will not have the element of surprise and confusion that allowed the Clans to rip the Inner Sphere a new ******* in the previous war.

To put it in perspective, think of it as pitting a pug team of complete noobs who just started against a premade team of players who have been playing since closed beta, then imagine just how much of a one-sided massacre it would be. For all their arrogance, even the crusaders realize they don't have the numbers to match the Inner Sphere; The truce will leave them with warriors of lesser quality due to lack of experience, and when you can't match numbers with superior quality, you can't win.

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 17 March 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

Thank you good sir for posting this information.

Now, recall what the "genocide" charge was again? How was it worded?
Let me help with that. Basically, the Genocide charge was that three generations of warriors were going to go to waste, unable to "fight", making the clans weak when the truce was over. Correct? Yet... they could still expand along the sides of the line, and fight amongst each other (which would still happen anyway). So... where is the dulling of skills and the waste of warriors?

Thus, by your own admission and statement, the charges against Ulric had to be false, and thus it was a political trial with almost a rigged outcome. The outcome was to break the truce of Tukayyid and continue the Invasion. An Invasion the Falcons were already prepared (proven through canon sources) to continue.

LOL, I was going to disregard you as you have shown how little you can effecftivily contribute to a canon based argument on past threads but this is just too easy to prove my point.

Exactly which flank did you think Clan Wolf was going to push to the Tukayyid line?? It was a Clan Wolf charge raised in the Clan Wolf council and they had no where to fight. See the problem here?

Huh? Huh?

They were on the Tukayyid line, go look at a canon IS map, ANY canon IS map.

Honestly, what you need to do is just sit down and read the cohesive arguments others put forward on your cause because you really are just embarressing yourself.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 17 March 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

LOL, I was going to disregard you as you have shown how little you can effecftivily contribute to a canon based argument on past threads but this is just too easy to prove my point.

Exactly which flank did you think Clan Wolf was going to push to the Tukayyid line?? It was a Clan Wolf charge raised in the Clan Wolf council and they had no where to fight. See the problem here?

Huh? Huh?

They were on the Tukayyid line, go look at a canon IS map, ANY canon IS map.

Honestly, what you need to do is just sit down and read the cohesive arguments others put forward on your cause because you really are just embarressing yourself.

*Looks to left*
*Looks to right*

"I see targets. One of them are a rather hated enemy. Why don't we "sharpen" our skills on some green birds?" Says the Wolf.

Also, I don't see the other clans (not invading) presenting Genocide charges against the Council, as they will never be able to invade the Inner Sphere at this rate.

Also, some bargaining could be done (not all that unheard of either) to let units of another clan pass through or work with another clan's territory. Nova Cat fought side by side with the Wolves at first, from canon sources posted in the other thread, during the invasion. (Nova Cat also shared some occupation worlds with Smoke Jaguar as well.)

There are so many holes in Ulric's trial, that they are really drummed up, false charges. Otherwise, the Clans are committing Genocide to the clans that haven't and aren't permitted to invade the Inner Sphere.

(Last question would be: Are the clans afraid of a fair fight?)

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 17 March 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

*Looks to left*
*Looks to right*

"I see targets. One of them are a rather hated enemy. Why don't we "sharpen" our skills on some green birds?" Says the Wolf.

Also, I don't see the other clans (not invading) presenting Genocide charges against the Council, as they will never be able to invade the Inner Sphere at this rate.

Also, some bargaining could be done (not all that unheard of either) to let units of another clan pass through or work with another clan's territory. Nova Cat fought side by side with the Wolves at first, from canon sources posted in the other thread, during the invasion. (Nova Cat also shared some occupation worlds with Smoke Jaguar as well.)

There are so many holes in Ulric's trial, that they are really drummed up, false charges. Otherwise, the Clans are committing Genocide to the clans that haven't and aren't permitted to invade the Inner Sphere.

(Last question would be: Are the clans afraid of a fair fight?)

Seriously, you are proposing that Clans Wolf attack the Clans to their left and right while they are invading against a 'common' enemy, you do realise that the Clans were fighting against the IS right, that was their avowed declared purpose. To invade the Inner Sphere. You understand who the combatants are? Or is your argument that Clan Wolf should run their soldiers across a 'hostile force' and leave their supply line open to attack.

Honestly man, sit down.

I let you derail the last thread but I'm not going to repeat the same mistake.

I suspect this is just more of your attempts to make tangent arguments on unrelated points to derail the thread. I'll read what you contribute if you do, but I will not respond to you in the future unless it is of some substance. You will know by my silence that what you put up is irrelevant.

You might think there are holes in Ulrics trial but seeing as we have no details of the trial thats kinda hard to assess from a canon viewpoint. Perhaps in your non canon world you have some more data that is irrelevant to the canon? What we do know is that the same Khans that found him innocent not that long ago, found him guilty of different charges with different evidence. I submit the "conspiracy" did not exist and it's only excuses being offered.

And as for your question, ask Ulric. He's the one who wouldn't defend himself personally and launched a war to 'save' his honour.

[Tesunie]

Or, you know, they could make bids for established supply lines, like they have done before... and then still attack the IS. But don't forget, all the clans are aiming to become Ilclan, by taking Terra. They probably would want to still hinder the advances of the other clans, so that their clan can become Ilclan...

And I derailed nothing in that other thread. But, I shall let my own posts stand for themselves in that other thread. (And the fact that what I had mentioned was later proven to be mostly accurate.)

[Jaroth Corbett]

Vanguard319, on 17 March 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

I don't think the genocide charge was based around memories of the Wolverines. It has more to do with the life cycle of a clan warrior. Basically a clanner who earns the right to be a warrior becomes one around the age of 20, by age 30, you are considered past your prime and on the downslide, and by 40 you are retired into another caste or become Solahma if you haven't died, earned a bloodname, or committed a deed so heroic that your value as a warrior is recognized by the clan.

By comparison, the Inner Sphere follows a longer rotation cycle for it's soldiers. It's not unusual for an IS mechwarrior to remain active into their 60's (Anastasius Focht remained a certified mechwarrior into his nineties) This means that IS warriors retain more combat experience in time, and pass more of that experience and knowledge to green troops.

The genocide charge comes from the realization that in fifteen years, the majority of clan warriors who fought in operation revival will have retired to other castes, the new invasion will be fought by young, inexperienced warriors versus IS armies whose troops were blooded in the previous war, who now have technology and mechs closer to parity with clan mechs, (including omnimechs of their own) and unlike Revival, they will not have the element of surprise and confusion that allowed the Clans to rip the Inner Sphere a new ******* in the previous war.

To put it in perspective, think of it as pitting a pug team of complete noobs who just started against a premade team of players who have been playing since closed beta, then imagine just how much of a one-sided massacre it would be. For all their arrogance, even the crusaders realize they don't have the numbers to match the Inner Sphere; The truce will leave them with warriors of lesser quality due to lack of experience, and when you can't match numbers with superior quality, you can't win.

What I am saying is people are reminded of the Wolverines when they hear genocide. This is why a matter for the Wolf Clan Council would end up in the Grand Council.

Craig Steele, on 17 March 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

6. Red Corsair was Clan Wolf's 37th (39th?) Cluster wasn't it?

I like how you edited that. You changed number 6. No the Red Corsair was a Bloodnamed Jade Falcon warrior which would lead us to believe the rest of the Corsairs were Falcons also.

Tesunie, on 17 March 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

7. Recall that, offically, Ghost Bear are still Crusader at this time, and seemed to have been voting accordingly. (Can anyone post canon references on what the vote against Ulric was, and who voted what? Just, because I'm wondering.)

I did already. It is in the other thread.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 18 March 2014 - 01:42 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 18 March 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

I like how you edited that. You changed number 6. No the Red Corsair was a Bloodnamed Jade Falcon warrior which would lead us to believe the rest of the Corsairs were Falcons also.

I didn't edit it, I couldn't remember which one it was. I was trying to have a bit of a laugh because ostensibily, there is no evidence bar a confession from a circle of equals that Jade Falcon was even involved (and that confession was kinda forced) in canon.

And the only unit identified on the 'side' of the Red Corsair was the Wolf Cluster (what was it's number?)

I was trying to have a bit of a laugh because as I went on subsequently, this is a tangent discusssion.

I'm happy to have it but it doesn't change the point I make which is that even if the Crusaders could find a way to repudiate the Truce, they still did not have the horsepower to make anything happen.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

I was trying to have a bit of a laugh because ostensibily, there is no evidence bar a confession from a circle of equals that Jade Falcon was even involved (and that confession was kinda forced) in canon.

Operational Turning Points - The Red Corsair Pg.9



I did say it was a Bloodnamed Jade Faclon warrior, quiaff?

There is also a novel where the two Falcon Khans Chistu & Crichell are discussing her.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 18 March 2014 - 02:40 AM.