74 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

This shows the path the Red Corsairs took. Look where they start from.




No evidence the Jade Falcons were trying to repudiate the truce my ass..........

What does the year say there? 3055 AFTER Tukayyid & BEFORE Ulric's trial. If you keep denying evidence shoved in your face & dancing around the points being made you are a troll. I gave you the benefit of the doubt before. Try to deny or dance around this. I dare you.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 18 March 2014 - 02:53 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 18 March 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

This shows the path the Red Corsairs took. Look where they start from.




No evidence the Jade Falcons were trying to repudiate the truce my ass..........

What does the year say there? 3055 AFTER Tukayyid & BEFORE Ulric's trial. If you keep denying evidence shoved in your face & dancing around the points being made you are a troll. I gave you the benefit of the doubt before. Try to deny or dance around this. I dare you.

Wow, why so angry? Don't think I have denied anything or danced away, I'm quite happy to entertain some tangent discussions if people want to explore theories, but thats hardly me dancing away?

But like I say I'm happy to discuss this but it remains a tangent.

So yeah, virtually every canon source SAYS there is no evidence that Clan Jade Falcon was involved bar a forced confession gained in a CoE. That's what canon says, until I saw that description of the warrior (what book is that?) and that source also acknowledges that she was a 'mystery', same as every other source book I have seen on her.

But like I keep telling everyone who will listen, sometimes we have to look beyond the headlines.

I'll come straight to the point, I think the Red Corsair was almost certainly the work of the Jade Falcon Khans, it stinks of them. Maybe a small chance not the Khans themselves but some other force in Clan Jade Flacon thinking they were 'doing the right thing' (Society maybe?) So far from trying to dance around the point, I'm quite happy to agree with you. Always did think it was a Crusader ploy personally. Thats why I can laugh about it as I did in my previous post.

How about that? Did you see that coming, probably not cause you seem to think I am a troll now just because I don't roll over from my point of view the first time someone says boo?

The fact is that Clan Wolf were also involved with a whole cluster (whatever it's number was, I'll try find it now cause its bugging me) although I strongly suspect that was without the sanction of its Khans (I would be astounded if it was).

I never disputed that the Crusaders were not trying to repudiate the truce, indeed I'm pretty sure I said as much in one of my posts. I said that even if they did it was of no risk to the Truce, and Ulric knew this.

Because Ulric knew that even if they did break the Truce, if Jade Falcon had of struck forward both Steel Viper and the Wolves would have fallen on them and torn them a new one. Same with the Jaguars, where were they going to go?

Ergo, the Crusaders could not physically do anything regardless of the Truce status. Was it a first step, maybe. Maybe if they had of got a Crusader Il Khan in they could have started to get some traction going in their direction, because they were most certainly losing traction by that stage. The Nova Cats were gone to Warden, the Ghost Bears were sitting on the fence and the Diamond Sharks looked like moving back to their natural Warden view, the only Crusader Khan in their touman heading in that direction.

There were more declared Wardens and fence sitters in 3057 than there had been at the council that found Ulric innocent. How does that work if it was a conspiracy, when they had the majority and the chance to strip Ulric of his power they put their heads togther and said "you know what, lets leave him there for a few years and hope we get another chance down the track, that seems a good idea, then we'll blind side him later on if we get the chance."

If I understand your basic point of refute Jaroth it is that word "Genocide" will trigger some reaction in Clan people and word would get back to the Grand Council. That regardless of it being an internal Clan Wolf matter that it might get escalated to be a Clan vs Clan matter. That might be true, it might not. The Ice Hellions kept an internal war secret for 60 years so its not without precedent that a secret can be kept. Clan Burrock kept a massive secret for over 200 years.

But which Clan could make the charge stick, not the Flanking Clans, they had plenty of opportunity to blood their warriors heading out to the edges of space without breaching the line, they have no claim. Not the Home Clans, they don't even come into the equation. Only one Clan was in a similar position to Clan Wolf and that was your own Ghost Bears.

Ulric already had an insight into their Warden leanings since 3048 and he must have had an inkling they were not the ardent Crusaders they once were. By 3057 they are clearly Warden internally and that had to be borne out in motions, or votes on things perhaps less critical. He had to suspect, this is ostensibly the greatest Clan warrior / politician / Il Khan since Nicholas.

We know that for their own reasons that Ghost Bear was not going to bring that sort of claim against Ulric, they were just about to settle down permenantly and the last thing they wanted was a renewal of the Invasion. There was no force in Clan Space, Crusader Il Khan or not, that would convince 2 Warden GB Khans (hidden admitably) to bring a claim against Ulric. I'd be prepared to give Ulric the benefit of the doubt of not being sure, but he most certainly had an inkling they were Wardens.

He knew there was no chance the Crusaders could do anything to actually breach the Truce, but he still went to war to protect the Truce, ostensibly.

PS, there are plenty of Kerensky's in IS space that have no relation to Alexander or Nicholas, the last name Hazen was never quoted in canon as proof nor as a bloodname that I am aware of.

Edited by Craig Steele, 18 March 2014 - 03:55 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

So yeah, virtually every canon source SAYS there is no evidence that Clan Jade Falcon was involved bar a forced confession gained in a CoE. That's what canon says, until I saw that description of the warrior (what book is that?) and that source also acknowledges that she was a 'mystery', same as every other source book I have seen on her.

I named the book & the page. The picture also shows the name. That book is canon. There is your proof. Of course she was a mystery, seeing as she never revealed who she was. The proof is there however. She was a Jade Falcon warrior & a Bloodnamed one to boot. The map shows that the Red Corsair emerged from the JFOZ.

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

I'll come straight to the point, I think the Red Corsair was almost certainly the work of the Jade Falcon Khans, it stinks of them. Maybe a small chance not the Khans themselves but some other force in Clan Jade Flacon thinking they were 'doing the right thing' (Society maybe?) So far from trying to dance around the point, I'm quite happy to agree with you. Always did think it was a Crusader ploy personally. Thats why I can laugh about it as I did in my previous post.

What the hell do you mean ALMOST? She is a Jade Falcon & she has a Bloodname. I said before there is also a novel where the two Khans are talking about her.

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

The fact is that Clan Wolf were also involved with a whole cluster (whatever it's number was, I'll try find it now cause its bugging me) although I strongly suspect that was without the sanction of its Khans (I would be astounded if it was).

Only Conal Ward's unit. They were hunting them at first until they learned the truth & decided to help them since it would mean the truce being repudiated.

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

I never disputed that the Crusaders were not trying to repudiate the truce, indeed I'm pretty sure I said as much in one of my posts. I said that even if they did it was of no risk to the Truce, and Ulric knew this.

You did & then you edited it after I put the pic up. It was point number 6 relating to the Red Corsair.

[ManaValkyrie]

I am digging through my pdf files to post confirmation but Hazen is listed as Jade Falcon Bloodname in more than one place.

[CyclonerM]

I am not going to dig again in my books to find the right page, but you will trust me if i tell you i remember Carew scratching the paint off a Red Corsair's fighter in combat and revealing a Jade Falcon insignia painted on it, quiaff?

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 18 March 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

What the hell do you mean ALMOST (1)? She is a Jade Falcon & she has a Bloodname. I said before there is also a novel where the two Khans are talking about her.



Only Conal Ward's unit.(2) They were hunting them at first until they learned the truth & decided to help them since it would mean the truce being repudiated.



You did & then you edited it after I put the pic up (3). It was point number 6 relating to the Red Corsair.

1. Re read what I said, almost certainly the work of the Khans is what I said. Just like Conals guys went off their own its not impossible for a another player in Jade Falcon that started it. The Society springs to mind, but its not as if some Galaxy Commander or even a Cluster commander could not have gone "rogue".

Geez even when I agree with you, you want to fight?

My five cents, if it was not instructed, it was certainly sanctioned by Elias. It just stinks of him to me. But unlike many I don't think Elias wanted to actually repudiate the Truce, thats just a mechanism. He wanted to be Il Khan, thats all he wanted. Everything was just a stepping stone to him having 'ultimate' power. Before 3048 he has reached the pinnacle, then Leo comes out of no where and suddenly he HAS to answer to that Jaguar. It would have stuck in his throat to even put his hand on the yay button. And then he could not get his name forwarded instead of Ulrics (although tbh, I still don't get the Crusaders line of thinking here. The headline we are supposed to swallow defies comprehension).

I think he was getting desperate. Before he died he wanted that title, he wanted his name up in lights. But he didn't want the job to do the job, he knew he could not push on without the support of the Wardens and he knew that wasn't forthcoming. He just wanted the pretty title and to be more than a footnote in history

2. All I recall is that it was a whole cluster, they joined later (half way?) but I seem to have that 37th number in my head. idk why. I had a quick look, it didn't spring out at me. I'll flip again later.

3. Sure, I can see how my edit timestamped 11.21 am could have overrun your post 6 hours later at 5.34 pm. I edited some minor spelling mistakes just after I posted it yesterday. I'm sorry if you interpret it otherwise but I did not amend anything because of your post. I'm not quite that cheap.

[Jaroth Corbett]

ManaValkyrie, on 18 March 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

I am digging through my pdf files to post confirmation but Hazen is listed as Jade Falcon Bloodname in more than one place.

Because it is.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

3. Sure, I can see how my edit timestamped 11.21 am could have overrun your post 6 hours later at 5.34 pm. I edited some minor spelling mistakes just after I posted it yesterday. I'm sorry if you interpret it otherwise but I did not amend anything because of your post. I'm not quite that cheap.

Now that is the final straw. You are lying. You said that There is no evidence that the Jade Falcons were planning/trying/attempting (I can't remember the exact word you used) to repudiate the truce.

When I put up the pic showing the Red Corsair to be a Jade Falcon you edited line 6 in your reply. Which is why I said

Quote

I like how you edited that. You changed number 6. No the Red Corsair was a Bloodnamed Jade Falcon warrior which would lead us to believe the rest of the Corsairs were Falcons also.

and after that in the next post I specifically said:

Quote

No evidence the Jade Falcons were trying to repudiate the truce my ass..........

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 18 March 2014 - 05:36 AM.

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 18 March 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

I am not going to dig again in my books to find the right page, but you will trust me if i tell you i remember Carew scratching the paint off a Red Corsair's fighter in combat and revealing a Jade Falcon insignia painted on it, quiaff?

Ostensibly in canon we are to believe they were pirates that had some success capturing Clan gear. Much of their stuff was upgraded with Clan tech but older chassis (ie, the Corsair herself piloted a Battlemaster).

On that basis, sure they had 'Clan' stuff.

Canon paints her last name as a 'co incidence' link to a Bloodname, Hazen being hardly the exclusive property of the Clans and thats no different to how Natasha was 'covered up' when Wolfs Dragoons arrived and people started asking questions. Basically that Natasha was not related to Alexander and ra ra ra.

But as I said before, there are headlines that can be relied upon, and some we shoudl ask questions about. If we look at 'what' she did, 'how' she fought and so forth we can draw a differnt conclusion to the headline.

Jaroth Corbett, on 18 March 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

Now that is the final straw. You are lying. You said that There is no evidence that the Jade Falcons were planning/trying/attempting (I can't remember the exact word you used) to repudiate the truce.

When I put up the pic showing the Red Corsair to be a Jade Falcon you edited line 6 in your reply. Which is why I said



and after that in the next post I specifically said:

Wait, what? What are you talking about.

I posted earlier today at about 11-30 am a post about the 37 / 39th cluster.

You said I edited that after your post at 5.30pm. The timestamps are right there (maybe different for your timezone) but I did not amend any post as you were putting anything up.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Dude I caught you. It is over. You are full of shit. On the other thread when everyone else was calling you a troll, I defended you. But you got caught lying. You edited point 6 of your thread AFTER I put up the pic that the Red Corsair was a Jade Falcon. I pointed it out right after I saw line 6 was different. You have a nice life.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 18 March 2014 - 06:18 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Yeah you too dude. I'm not trolling anyone, just standing by facts.

It's irrelevant but if you seriously cannot read the timestamps you are just deluded.

I get you want to be a nice guy and all, but you're just being silly now.

You have a nice life, thanks for buying into the conversation, you had some good points but like a lot of fan boys, cannot get past the head lines. Thats OK too.

For the record, I made a post to you and made a joke on your line 6. Subsequently I expanded point 6 with more discussion. And then I went back and tidied up some spelling mistakes. All 6 hours before you put your post up. If you can't read the timestamps and want to find another conspiracy, you are well placed being an Ulric supporter.

Good Luck

[Jaroth Corbett]

The facts are the facts. I know what I saw. Line 6 was about the jade falcons & right after I show you proof, you change it to being about clan wolf. I do not abide liars.

Ulric supporter? Now you are not just a liar, you are an idiot. Look at my profile page or ask ANYONE who knows me. Vlad Ward is my hero & has been ever since I read what he did to the Jade Falcons. I am a Crusader & NEVER was a supporter of Ulric. You just exposed your stupidity.

[Craig Steele]

Yeah, umm cause your politics are linked to your ability to read a timestamp? My comment was if you want to find another conspiracy wasn't it?

I don't know what you saw man and I was willing to give you the benefity of the doubt but honestly, if you have looked at those timestamps and you still think I edited something after your post idk what to say. As you say, the facts are the facts and you can actually read these ones.

I don't see how your ability to read says anything about my intelligence, but I guess you'll have a case for that anyway.

Damage is done anyway, Good luck.

[Jaroth Corbett]

You could have simply accepted the fact that you were wrong but you had to go change the post. I mentioned it right after I saw it. I refuted your points in the Clan Wolf thread with canon source material. You make two new threads. One in the Jade Falcon section & one in the Smoke Jaguar section.

You are damn right the damage is done you liar.

Ulric supporter? You should have quit while you were ahead.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 18 March 2014 - 05:59 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 18 March 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

You could have simply accepted the fact that you were wrong but you had to go change the post. I mentioned it right after I saw it. I refuted your points in the Clan Wolf thread with canon source material. You make two new threads. One in the Jade Falcon section & one in the Smoke Jaguar section.

You are damn right the damage is done you liar.

Ulric supporter? You should have quit while you were ahead.

Well no, I left the Wolf thread cause it was being dominated by trolls. My points were never refuted and even with all your canon you could not refute the 6 key points (although I will concede you did show me some new stuff on tangent arguments).

And again, I didn't change the post. And I certainly don't have to admit I was wrong seeing as I agreed with you.

I made two new threads on two new subjects and posted them in the relevant sections, thats a CoC thing, pretty sure it is my responsibilty to do that as the poster. You may have a copy of the CoC you want to show me that I am wrong on that?

Calling me a liar when the timestamps are right there in front of you just makes you look bad Jaroth. I'm sorry if doesn't fit what you want it to fit, but unless you think I am some master hacker that reset the clock to agree with you, I really have nothing else to add.

Anyway, completely unrelated to the thread so I am not responding to anymore baseless acquasations on my person. I too cannot abide liars.

[Jaroth Corbett]

You did. I saw it, which is why I mentioned it as soon as I did.

I refuted ALL your points in the Wolf thread with source material, the only person who does not accept that is you.

Deny the facts in your face or dance around the issues then, you had my confidence & my support until that lie you just told.

Seppuku then?

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 18 March 2014 - 06:14 AM.

[CyclonerM]

May you settle it in a Circle of Equals and then stop insulting each other? I think it does not give a very good show of Clansmen..

However Craig, since you seem to like a bit speculating, i would say that Jade Falcon emblem on an aerospace fighter (wow did those pirates capture a Falcon base or Dropship? ), a Bloodnamed Falcon warrior commanding the pirate band, the brief discussion about the two Falcon Khans about her, the fact they started their campaign from the JF OZ, their Clan tactics (defeating the garrison unit before going on piracy), some kind of confession by Conal Ward (when he told Khan Phelan Kell that he was right in trying to repudiate the Truce!) and some other detail you may pick from Natural Selection are only a coincidence

Edited by CyclonerM, 18 March 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 18 March 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

May you settle it in a Circle of Equals and then stop insulting each other? I think it does not give a very good show of Clansmen..

However Craig, since you seem to like a bit speculating, i would say that Jade Falcon emblem on an aerospace fighter (wow did those pirates capture a Falcon base or Dropship? ), a Bloodnamed Falcon warrior commanding the pirate band, the brief discussion about the two Falcon Khans about her, the fact they started their campaign from the JF OZ, their Clan tactics (defeating the garrison unit before going on piracy), some kind of confession by Conal Ward (when he told Khan Phelan Kell that he was right in trying to repudiate the Truce!) and some other detail you may pick from Natural Selection are only a coincidence

LOL, How many times do I have to say I agree?

It was to me (notwithstanding the headlines) an attempt by someone in Jade Falcon (probably Elias) to break the truce.

But maybe this is a terminolgy thing. Are people using this example as a conspiracy to break the truce and linking it to my (non canon) terminology of "the great crusader conspiracy"?

Cause the two are very different.

I have said that the Crusaders were attemtping to repudiate the truce, sure.

But this post is concerning "the great crusader conspiracy" that Ulric saw as threating the Inner Sphere.

What I have been demonstrating is that for all the attempts that might be made, it just didn't matter. Ulric knew the Crusdaers were going no where because they did not have the firepower. He points to the 'conspiracy' as justification for his wwar, but it just wasn't there.

[Jaroth Corbett]

CyclonerM, on 18 March 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

May you settle it in a Circle of Equals and then stop insulting each other? I think it does not give a very good show of Clansmen..

However Craig, since you seem to like a bit speculating, i would say that Jade Falcon emblem on an aerospace fighter (wow did those pirates capture a Falcon base or Dropship? ), a Bloodnamed Falcon warrior commanding the pirate band, the brief discussion about the two Falcon Khans about her, the fact they started their campaign from the JF OZ, their Clan tactics (defeating the garrison unit before going on piracy), some kind of confession by Conal Ward (when he told Khan Phelan Kell that he was right in trying to repudiate the Truce!) and some other detail you may pick from Natural Selection are only a coincidence

If PGI could undo what they did when Ui 2.0 was launched, I would be happy to.






The fact remains, I know what I saw. And to think he would pull that shit after I defended him in the other thread.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 18 March 2014 - 06:28 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 18 March 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

If PGI could undo what they did when Ui 2.0 was launched, I would be happy to.

At least your FPS isn't sub 20