96 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

I'm looking forward to the speed boost, but not so much to the AMS boost. But, I guess AMS did need it to counter the speed boost. However, this means teams can spread out more and still be covering each other with AMS.

I shall wait and see what happens when I play. All I can say.

[wintersborn]

Great write up and for those that like to try builds more than play the game it is something of interest for me, so thank you.

I will add that however I have found that "Specializing" in a weapon or role seems to be more effective when it comes to the way the game was designed.

[Tesunie]

wintersborn, on 18 March 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

I will add that however I have found that "Specializing" in a weapon or role seems to be more effective when it comes to the way the game was designed.

Yes... and no.

Specializing gives you a great strength in that role, and some weapons can work at several roles (ranges). If you specialize, you will always be good when able to use that specialization. However, especially with LRMs/PPCs and shorter range weapons, you can also often gain large glaring weaknesses. If you can stay out of your weakness, yes. You will be very strong. However, get caught outside that strength, and most times there is very little you can do except to die.

My concept (which I know isn't original) is to have a strong focus in one role, and at least bring something for another role. This way, you can at least always fight back even if you aren't great in the other role. Then, if you find a way to, and you are fighting against a specialist role in their role, you might be able to force them outside their role and take them down. Even if your focus role is the same. (Example: LRM focused vs an LRM boat. If the focused build can still get within the 180m range of the boat, the boat can't do anything, were as the LRM focused build can take it's time and slowly pick the specialist build apart.)

Adding more of the same kind of weapons always has it's strength, but also tends to share the same weaknesses. A laser boated build will have the damage over time, splash effects. Ballistics have pin point bursts of damage, but you have to hit with them, as well as need to have ammo. LRMs need locks, but my goodness to anything that can stay locked on is going to probably feel some hurt, but if anyone gets within 180m you are toast. Etc.

There is also a reason I mentioned a balance to weapons that work well together. A lot of the upgrades that help LRMs also help SSRMs (and SRMs to some extent). They work well together, covering one's weakness with the other. And they also share a nice 270-180m range band, which is where you can really lay some hurt on before they negate one weapon or another.

TAG and Large Lasers shoot the same way, and have similar ranges. AC5s and TAG share similar ranges, but not shooting styles. However, the AC5 shoot cool enough to be able to continue to shoot, letting you keep TAG working longer. (For those of us who don't have/use macros or are limited in mouse buttons.)

By all accounts, the new AC5/PPC meta is actually a more balanced meta. With the exception of bringing in all long range weapons, they don't focus on just one weapon type (unlike before with 4-6 PPCs or 3-4 AC5/UAC5s, or 6 AC2s). However, up close they still have a little bit more weakness, as with PPCs they have a 90m minimum, or ERPPCs run hot, and in a close up engagement they will be hard pressed to run cool.

As a final piece to add, with missiles I find it is best to not overly specialize with them. Other weapon systems you can more or less get away with it. LRMs have that hard 180m minimum and require locks. Also the number of counters to them doesn't help. With the new speed of them, things may change a little bit. SRMs are so close range and spread out. Not to mention the hit reg problems. SSRMs are a combo of SRMs and LRMs, so they share some of each weaknesses, and yet their strengths as well.

[Koniks]

I think OP's right about complementary weapons. I disagree about building range-balanced builds for the sake of having balance. Jack of all trades can contribute across the board but are generally going to get beat by a properly operated purpose-built mech.

It's probably best to load a mech for a specialized role then either equip it to get you into that position/range and/or develop the skills to get into that position/range. This is the case even in PUGs where you have no control over what the rest of your team brings or how they'll play. This is mostly because the best long range weapons in the game are also the best in short and medium encounters against everything except lights. And to kill lights, it's best to have a light hunter.

Almost every drop is going to provide a situation that matches the niche of a purpose built mech. Even the stomps.

This might change with the new LRM speed, though.

[Tesunie]

Mizeur, on 18 March 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

I think OP's right about complementary weapons. I disagree about building range-balanced builds for the sake of having balance. Jack of all trades can contribute across the board but are generally going to get beat by a properly operated purpose-built mech.

It's probably best to load a mech for a specialized role then either equip it to get you into that position/range and/or develop the skills to get into that position/range. This is the case even in PUGs where you have no control over what the rest of your team brings or how they'll play. This is mostly because the best long range weapons in the game are also the best in short and medium encounters against everything except lights. And to kill lights, it's best to have a light hunter.

Almost every drop is going to provide a situation that matches the niche of a purpose built mech. Even the stomps.

This might change with the new LRM speed, though.

This is greatly dependent upon personal skills and preferences. The thing with a lot of specialist builds is that most of them end up with a big weakness opponents can take advantage of. In a solo play, having a large weakness that your opponents can take advantage of is going to get messy most times. If you are in a team, then you get a little more leeway. If you know how to play that specific role (or are willing to take your lumps), then you can probably get away with it. In Solo play though, a balanced build can handle more situations, and as you have no real team to fall back on, you probably will see a lot of situations happen. Best to be prepared.

As far as my suggestion for range balance, it's more or less to keep you from being useless at any given time. I've had a Jenner with a LL and 3 med lasers before (now it's got 4 med lasers and 2 SSRM2s). I did this back when Seismic was a big deal, and I couldn't get close enough to "surprise" most people, as they already had their guns turned to me before I even got close to them. So, I started using the large to strike at a range. Sometimes, even placing just one ERLL (or normal LLeven) can help out when it's a sniping match in Alpine.

Most long range weapons in the game actually do less damage (rate of fire, heat, minimum range or something else) up close. This isn't to say that you always have to have long and short range weapons. I'll admit that an AC that's good at range will still be good up close. A lot of times, a ranged build will be fine and need no real motivation to place close range weapons. However, this part is mostly directed at missile users (but not entirely). If you have LRMs, unless you are really good at keeping people away, you probably will need some back up close range weapons. I also suggest people experiment and try out different things, such as taking a single larger launcher to be able to fit some close range missiles into the other hard points. (A concept I've been seeing since I started posting my own builds on the forums. I've been seeing a lot more mechs with almost or exact replicas of my posted builds... I'd like to say they saw them and are using them, but more than likely they came to the same conclusion I did on how to possibly try to run those mechs.)

I also make the range suggestion as most long range weapons are also the ones with ghost heat on them. So, say, you take 2 ERLLs. Instead of doing a 4 LL setup (of any type of LL), maybe placing 2 ERLLs for range, and 2 MPL for close up might be a better concept? Or, if you have more than 4 energy slots, have 2 ERLLs and 4 med lasers? This is more so the balance of range vs close up I'm referring to. You don't have to boat the LLs if you have a lot of energy points. You can only shoot 2 before ghost heat kicks in. Thus, mix it up a little. This way, you can still engage at a distance, and anything that gets close can feel the full might of your build. (Or, if you have the ballistics and energy, mech dependent, instead of 4 LLs, 2 ERLLs and an AC5 might be a better mix...)

Another reason for the balance of range band weapons is heat. If you have 2 ERPPCs for range, and a bunch of med lasers for up close, you can better manage you heat. Use the ERPPCs at range, and sparingly up close.

I do also encourage that people build upon a strong focus, and then place something (several factors dependent) for the other focus. This way, you are "better" at one, but can at least do something in the other range too. This could mean having AC5, PPC, and 2 med lasers (or something).

Every drop should provide a situation for every build type, but the question is if you will find the right approach, or live long enough to preform your role as you envision. If all is working for you with a specialized build, then by all means. continue to use said build. However, if things continually seem to go south for you, maybe a more balanced approach might be helpful. Every person plays differently, which is why I suggest things, and don't make them into commandments or decrees. Sometimes, you just have to find your own path, and no one else will get the results you do from the same loadout.



Just as an example of what I mean by range band builds:
Shadowhawk 2D2: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0ef2b36422b21b2 (Don't recall if I posted this or not.)
This mech has ERPPCs to snipe at the enemy from afar. However, if things get close, I know they will quickly overheat my mech, no matter how many sinks I cram in. So, to counter that weakness, I placed 4 SSRM2s to cover as a low heat, close range attack. At close range, I can still use my ERPPCs, just very sparingly. With this mech, I can take on any lights that get close to me, though I've been finding that it's been an effective charging mech when the need comes up. (Focus of this build was actually ranged combat, but it has shifted to a mid line fighter, with some close in tendencies.)

Yes, I could remove the SSRMs and place in some more DHS, but I don't think I'd be seeing the success I do if I did that. I could also remove the ERPPCs for ERLLs to make it run cooler at range. I could even remove the range, place in the largest engine I can, and flood with LPLs and SRMs even. But, I don't think I'd be seeing as much success personally with those other builds. But, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't be effective either in the right hands.


I think there is a lot of power in balanced builds that people do not normally realize. However, there is an ease and strength to a simple, specialized build as well. Each have their places, and each are good concepts. I just find I have better results in balanced builds than specialized ones. Or rather I should say, I see more even performance. (AKA: If I average 300 damage a match in the mech, I'm probably doing between 200-400 damage a match, almost every match. Other specialized mechs I've averaged 300 damage in, but that's because the average match was 150 or less, with a couple of 500-700 damage spikes to even it out. Seeing low stats on average with a few "great games" I find frustrating. This is me of course. What works for me, wont work for everyone.)

Spoiler

Then again, I'm crazy enough to pilot these loudouts (and seem to do well in them):
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0aed9ef87384ab3
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...60c653d5c1bff86
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...98482fb6aa1c943
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...45485a8ad957121

[Koniks]

There are 2 approaches to covering a weakness. You can build to cover the weakness--that usually means reducing one or more strengths. Or you can maximize your strength and play in a way to reduce your time in situations where the weakness is exposed.

The most effective strategy is usually the latter.

Edit: for the shadowhawk PPC/SSRM build you posted, maximizing the strength would mean using a low-heat ballistic instead of the SSRMs. You'll get more punch at range, have an option when you start to run hot, and have some effect on lights. But by sacrificing the streaks, your strategy should be to not be in a position where you're alone against more than 1 light. And if heat is still a problem, then also switch to PPCs instead of ERPPCs.

Edited by Mizeur, 18 March 2014 - 06:20 PM.

[Tesunie]

Mizeur, on 18 March 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

There are 2 approaches to covering a weakness. You can build to cover the weakness--that usually means reducing one or more strengths. Or you can maximize your strength and play in a way to reduce your time in situations where the weakness is exposed.

The most effective strategy is usually the latter.

Edit: for the shadowhawk PPC/SSRM build you posted, maximizing the strength would mean using a low-heat ballistic instead of the SSRMs. You'll get more punch at range, have an option when you start to run hot, and have some effect on lights. But by sacrificing the streaks, your strategy should be to not be in a position where you're alone against more than 1 light. And if heat is still a problem, then also switch to PPCs instead of ERPPCs.

I'll agree with the ACs, but for whatever reason I can not comprehend, me and ACs just don't seem to want to get along... (And they are rather heavy, and I wanted a Shadowhawk that didn't have an AC.)

As far as PPCs over ERPPCs, I was finding that, too often, I could see a target, get hit by target, but couldn't hit them back as I didn't have enough range to damage them. After a few rounds of this happening, and noticing it as a problem, I hesitantly changed over to ERPPCs. I did not do so without considering the ramifications. However, I have no regretted the choice once it was done as it seems to work really well. So, I play as much a sniping role (almost the same extent as many other snipers with 2 PPCs and an AC5, or 2 AC5s and a LL/PPC), as I do protecting my allies from fast mechs that get close. I've even seen this mech preform well at starting a charge into the enemy forces, and somehow come out alive! (It's nice when PUGs figure out to charge with you is a good thing...)

Thing with a game like MWO, there is no one way to play, and no way is really better than another. So many different options to play within a single mech...

I also find, no matter what happens, someone will catch me out of my strength. I have come to the determination that (unless you are really good or lucky), eventually you will get caught in your weakness. So, I figured, if this is what I'm seeing, then I'll start designing builds with fewer weaknesses, but still try to focus on a single aspect as a stronger point than the others.

It all started with that Stalker. Once I made that loudout ( http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1b0fed418ebb28e ), something went "click" inside my head, and I have been seeing great success with similar builds as the Stalker, or at least similar concepts as it. (Maybe it works just for me, but I figured it couldn't hurt to spread the information around.)

[Tesunie]

Just mostly bumping to remind people of this, especially with the new LRM changes. Of course, play the way you want, but the increased speed of LRMs does not (in my opinion) make boating LRMs any wiser than it was before...

Oh, and a Banshee build I think would be fitting in here: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7b8cb758cfc902b

And I've been having some great games with my Griffin with the new patch:

[Haji1096]

Great thread. I would like to add two builds to the discussion:

CN9-AL - "Prometheus" http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ec32dc0a68035bb
STD 250 Engine
ES, DH, AMS, BAP
2x ER LL, 2x ML, 2x SSRM2 w/1 ton of ammo

This build is designed to fulfill the escort role. Stay positioned 200 meters off to side of the main body, watch for enemy flankers. Use the ER Large Lasers to open up new lines of fire. Use the streaks and medium lasers to scare away lights. Equip Target Info Gathering module and Adv. Target Decay module to help maintain locks for LRMs.



TDR5SS - http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=115&l=cf96ba96207370a65084c92c074fd38aa4905f1e
STD 315 Engine
ES,FF,DS, AMS
2 PPC, 5 SL

This build takes advantage of the high energy mounts in the right torso. Combine that with the offset cockpit, and you can basically hit exactly what you see, which makes this mech good for hill humping. The 5 small lasers cover range 0-90, where your PPC's don't do damage. I use a STD engine in Thunderbolts to take advantage of their ability to tank damage. The 315 engine will give you 86 kph after speed tweak, which should give you enough mobility to relocate once the enemy notices you.

Edited by Haji1096, 23 March 2014 - 08:22 PM.

[Tesunie]

Haji1096, on 23 March 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

Great thread. I would like to add two builds to the discussion:

CN9-AL - "Prometheus" http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ec32dc0a68035bb
STD 250 Engine
ES, DH, AMS, BAP
2x ER LL, 2x ML, 2x SSRM2 w/1 ton of ammo

This build is designed to fulfill the escort role. Stay positioned 200 meters off to side of the main body, watch for enemy flankers. Use the ER Large Lasers to open up new lines of fire. Use the streaks and medium lasers to scare away lights. Equip Target Info Gathering module and Adv. Target Decay module to help maintain locks for LRMs.



TDR5SS - http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=115&l=cf96ba96207370a65084c92c074fd38aa4905f1e
STD 315 Engine
ES,FF,DS, AMS
2 PPC, 5 SL

This build takes advantage of the high energy mounts in the right torso. Combine that with the offset cockpit, and you can basically hit exactly what you see, which makes this mech good for hill humping. The 5 small lasers cover range 0-90, where your PPC's don't do damage. I use a STD engine in Thunderbolts to take advantage of their ability to tank damage. The 315 engine will give you 86 kph after speed tweak, which should give you enough mobility to relocate once the enemy notices you.

Thanks. I think that balanced designs can be great, depending upon how they are made, how they are played, and even who is using them.

I like the Cent. Nice weapons for range, and nice solid weapons for close up. And if you lose the arm, you just lose your range, which isn't a big deal by then normally, as then your probably are fairly close I would imagine. Heat would be the only issue I might have with the mech, as it'd be really temping to shoot those ERLLs into close combat. But, I'm guessing, if you can keep yourself shooting the weapons for the right range, you run fairly cool.


Thunderbolt is very similar to my own Thunderbolt design: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...20f0ef7ceca8351
I did ERPPCs, as I found that many people out ranged my PPCs, which is sad, as the PPCs made the mech run so much cooler. I might have to consider changing to the SmL and see how it runs at some point... Might make the piece it was missing and needing. (I had an SRM4 on instead, which I think I might have changed already, not certain...)
For the record, I would not consider my Thunderbolt 5SS as a balanced build at all. It really isn't, which is probably why I have such mixed performance from it. (Sometimes it does great, other times it does bad.) I might actually do 3 flamers instead... I haven't used Flamers in a while. Should test them out again before too long.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Haji1096, on 23 March 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

TDR5SS - http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=115&l=cf96ba96207370a65084c92c074fd38aa4905f1e

I'll have to give that one a shot - would have stuck the PPC in the arm - mostly because I always seem to wind up needing to snipe a spider or similar on the mountain top in CS, or up a pillar in Tourmaline, where the torso mounts won't reach...

But putting the SL in the arm make it easier to split them into 2 groups (maybe?) making it possibly easier to manage their heat.

[Haji1096]

Tesunie, on 23 March 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Thanks. I think that balanced designs can be great, depending upon how they are made, how they are played, and even who is using them.

I like the Cent. Nice weapons for range, and nice solid weapons for close up. And if you lose the arm, you just lose your range, which isn't a big deal by then normally, as then your probably are fairly close I would imagine. Heat would be the only issue I might have with the mech, as it'd be really temping to shoot those ERLLs into close combat. But, I'm guessing, if you can keep yourself shooting the weapons for the right range, you run fairly cool.


Thunderbolt is very similar to my own Thunderbolt design: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...20f0ef7ceca8351
I did ERPPCs, as I found that many people out ranged my PPCs, which is sad, as the PPCs made the mech run so much cooler. I might have to consider changing to the SmL and see how it runs at some point... Might make the piece it was missing and needing. (I had an SRM4 on instead, which I think I might have changed already, not certain...)
For the record, I would not consider my Thunderbolt 5SS as a balanced build at all. It really isn't, which is probably why I have such mixed performance from it. (Sometimes it does great, other times it does bad.) I might actually do 3 flamers instead... I haven't used Flamers in a while. Should test them out again before too long.

If the situation gets really dire, I do use the ER LL in close. Another variation of this build would be to use 2 large lasers, which would mitigate the heat a bit. You could also keep the ERs, switch the engine to an XL and add extrea heat sinks. The original build I had in the AL was 2x ER PPCs, 2x ML, and a max XL engine. It did really well until the ER PPC heat was increased.

I started out with two ER PPCs on the Tbolt as well, but it was too hot. I'm still trying to find a good build that utilizes one ER PPC. I had tried a Shadowhawk build that uses 1 ERPPC, Streaks and MGs, but it still ran too hot. Something just felt off about it.

Shar Wolf, on 24 March 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

I'll have to give that one a shot - would have stuck the PPC in the arm - mostly because I always seem to wind up needing to snipe a spider or similar on the mountain top in CS, or up a pillar in Tourmaline, where the torso mounts won't reach...

But putting the SL in the arm make it easier to split them into 2 groups (maybe?) making it possibly easier to manage their heat.

I use the following weapon grouping: Group 1 - PPCS, Group 2: Arm SL, Group 3: Torso SLs.
Ultimately, the PPC placement is dependent on personal preference, but when they are in the same location you are less likely to get any weird convergence effects. They are mounted right next to each other, so you will be putting 20 pts of damage on one component all the time.

[Tesunie]

Haji1096, on 24 March 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

I started out with two ER PPCs on the Tbolt as well, but it was too hot. I'm still trying to find a good build that utilizes one ER PPC. I had tried a Shadowhawk build that uses 1 ERPPC, Streaks and MGs, but it still ran too hot. Something just felt off about it.

Do you group fire them, or chain fire them?
Shadowhawk 2D2: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0ef2b36422b21b2
I chain fire the ERPPCs (and the SSRMs). Surprisingly enough, with enough duck and cover between, this build runs fairly cool, with some firing restraints when the action gets close.

My problem with the 5SS has been finding a cooler running weapon to run partner to the heavy and hot ERPPCs. I don't know, but I think the SmLs might become an option... I might have to test that some time and see how it feels. I'm normally not a fan of SmL...

[Tiamat of the Sea]

I am -really happy- to see this thread. It's great to see people diverging from the 'everything must PPC/U/AC/5/2', 'zomgonlyLRMs' and 'this is my light hunting Kintaro' trends. Not to say that those tactics are invalid or 'bad', but they really aren't the only tactics and shouldn't be.

I like to run a variety of 'mechs- I'll pick up three or more variants of a chassis, and then use the unique hardpoint layouts to build three or more very different functioning machines. I'll try each for a while while I work on basics, adjust or completely rework builds when they seem to be failing, and once I've mastered all of the variants I picked up, sell off the ones where I can't create a build I can make work that is significantly different from the ones I use with the other variants of that 'mech. This does mean that some 'mech chassis are really iffy for me (most Jenners operate basically the same builds, there's very little worthwhile variation in the Griffins and Wolverines that isn't already covered by Shadow Hawks I've already mastered, et cetera), but it helps me expand my play methods and make myself think about what I'm doing.

Some builds that I have which very much fit the theme of this:

My Cataphract 1X MWO:Mechlab - CTF-1X Thresher : This is not at all what most people do with their 1Xes, but I find it works amazingly. Using a Standard engine makes the thing all kinds of durable and while it's slow, that's okay. The PPC and ER Large Laser are used at long range- the ER laser saves weight and works at greater distances, and the PPC lets me shut down enemy ECM from long range. As I close, I can start up the LB 10-X (especially to shoot up locations I've torn open with the PPC and LL), and then once they're in range I swap to the medium lasers to accompany the LB-X. This keeps heat down and adds an increasing damage rate at closer ranges. The AMS helps survive to those ranges, as does the speed (since I'm unlikely to be way out in front of the assault buddies in my team). I -have- tried mounting the large laser and PPC in the shoulders instead so that they're high-placed, but I find that with them overhead of the cockpit and lacking the arm flexibility, I lose out on the range of motion too much- also, having the medium lasers only in the arms means losing them in close combat a lot more often. Many people malign the LB-X, but I've used its shot spread at long range to murder exposed things, shoot 'around' obstacles and snag last-moment kills on escaping lights, and besides all of that, the PPC and lasers do plenty of tearing things open so that the LB-X can wreck internals.

One of my Highlanders, the MWO:Mechlab - HGN-733C Prastax: Most people make the 733C a poptart. I hate trying to poptart. Not only am I bad at it, I find it dull. So instead I built a super-nasty brawler. Yes, it's slow with its standard engine. Yeah, it only has one jump jet. But the jet is there for terrain considerations, and it's supposed to run in on things after the long-range part of a battle is over. Again with the LB 10-X, yes, but it used to have an AC/10. It was a little while after putting this thing together that I went across all my 'mechs (including the Thresher) and tried replacing all my AC/10s with LB 10-Xes. And I experienced an across-the-board performance improvement. Would you? I don't know, some people can't get the hang of the LB-X, and that's fine. Regardless, the thing is set up to smash face, and smash it hard- I've neutered and killed multiple atlases in duels with this thing- as in two per game at times. It's a bit shy on long-range firepower, but at middle and short ranges it's deadly, supplanting the large lasers with SRM-6es. I know, I know, hit registry problems- but did you know that the problems are based on the number of SRMs hitting a target at once? (And yes, it's exclusive to SRMs. Whatever the source of the problem is may well be linked to the splash radius on them, which was reduced to 0 instead of removed entirely- but the point is it doesn't affect autocannon projectiles or LRMs, even if they're hitting at the same time as SRMs.) So I chainfire them. This has the added advantage of causing repeated cockpit shake, too.

The other Highlander, the MWO:Mechlab - HGN-733 Candycorn: Did you know you only need four LRM launchers to keep a constant barrage (not six)? Or that you can do it with two tens and two fives? You do have to manually keep up the rhythm of fire yourself (which means learning the necessary skill to keep a rhythm with just one finger, but you can do it!) but it will keep something under constant, core-shattering fire. And with the missiles focused on the center, that LB-X autocannon will happily shred components in the center torso and do added damage to the armor-stripped spot. The damage output is a little slow (curse of small missile racks), but the 'mech is faster and more agile than the Prastax and functions with a larger range envelope.

How about the MWO:Mechlab - BJ-3 Sap: Manual fire control, people. Fire only the ER Larges at long range, and only the medium lasers at short range. The heat always stays managable (50 seconds at maximum firing rate before shutdown with either set of weapons, which is plenty to get in, wreck something, and leave), the large lasers are in high, flexible mounts for optimal fire support, and the lack of an XL engine makes it incredibly durable. (check the BJ's hitboxes sometimes. Those side torsos are huge.) In emergencies, you also have a 36-point alpha at close range, which is nothing to sneer at even if you do shut down shortly afterwards.

The MWO:Mechlab - HBK-4SP Arminius provides an alternative: While most people would boo me for throwing an XL engine in this thing, the weight savings and high speed are amazing. That PPC gives a great option at long ranges and the capacity to shut down ECM, and 12 SRMs and 3 medium lasers is enough to core an Atlas from behind in two to three volleys- great if you use the maneuverability to get in behind someone who's occupied with an enemy in front of them and may not notice right away. Also, dat hunchie torso twist- if you learn to time your SRMs, lights will rue the day they came after you.

One of my favorite Orions is the MWO:Mechlab - ON1-VA Quarterback: Quad LRM-5s lets you pretend to be a missile boat- and then when a light comes after you, the huge XL engine makes you super-mobile, and the medium lasers and LB-X autocannon wreck their armor (and hopefully their 'mech). Do not discount the value of that huge engine- remember that this Orion is not meant to go face to face with heavy slow things. That's what far-flung allies and the LRMs are for.

MWO:Mechlab - TDR-5S From The Blue is unusual for me: Dual PPCs! With just two, they automatically fall vertically in-line under the cockpit, letting you shoot through narrow spaces with great accuracy. They're less hot than ERPPCs, which is fine if you are willing to use the autocannon and SRMs instead at close range- especially since the 20-damage hits will likely have torn open a location by then, which you can punish with multiple-crit damage from the cannon and missiles. A bit slow, like the Thresher, but well worth the wait to get into range. XL engine is, I will admit, a bit risky in the barrel-bodied Tbolt, so if you don't like the risk, you may want to try and find a similar alternative (Standard engine and 2xSRM-6 + Mlas, maybe?)

The MWO:Mechlab - TDR-5SS Thundershock is a good all-ranger: LRMs for indirect fire and to keep you out of trouble until the opening stages of combat are over, large lasers for mid-range damage, and medium lasers to pump things up as you close in. A standard engine, too, which means that you're going to keep fighting to the bitter end. I have never been stick'd in this thing, though it is theoretically possible. One large laser used to be in the torso, but I find the mobility and combined reticle for the larges makes them amazing for legging lights or punching holes in armor.

To fit very closely with your original idea, MWO:Mechlab - STK-3F Prowler: My own take on the multi-function 3F stalker. ER large lasers aren't very hot, overall, and the high mountings makes them great for hill-humping. LRMs are good for the opening stages of battle and can be combined with the large lasers in direct fire. It does require a fourth weapon group for the SRMs (since they need to be led and the medium lasers don't), but they combine nicely with the medium lasers for a hefty close-up barrage. In emergencies, the large lasers can be thrown in as well, making a deadly burst of damage firing everything not-LRM.

Also, there's the closest thing I have left to a 'big bad missile boat'- MWO:Mechlab - STK-5S Predator: Here's the two-tens-two-fives combo. Of course, it rarely gets put together with a nasty close-range laser salvo like this. The lasers run a bit hot, but I find if I have them on two weapon groups (one for the right side, the other for the left) it's pretty tolerable, and the emergency 42-damage punch at close range will really mess up someone's 'mech. CASE means losing one side only ever loses you one side, too, which is convenient for the left-right laser groups.

In things I haven't done yet, but intend to:

The MWO:Mechlab - BLR-1S Warlord II promises to be a devastating anti-assault-assault, with long range barrages followed up by a fusillade of missiles and lasers (since I know how to lead SRMs, which most people apparently have a lot of trouble with).

MWO:Mechlab - VTR-9B Preston will likely ruin someone's day- ER lasers to pick at range, and then smack-crunch goes the shelling close in.

MWO:Mechlab - VTR-9K Deputy Dan will find us, no matter how far we go. (He also reminds us not to follow the ball when it makes the street.)

The MWO:Mechlab - HBK-4J Orphan is the lost third half of your Stalker, Tesu....

I planned the MWO:Mechlab - JM6-A Absolom specifically to make a fun, functional lopsided build. Perhaps the dual-15s should be artemis-10s, but I expect I'll wind up mostly shooting heavier stuff with it. As a fun additional note, it's absolutely atypical of Jaegermechs.

MWO:Mechlab - AWS-8Q Barndoor is expected to swap from PPCs to pulse lasers at closer ranges, so that it can still hit... and probably hit harder, come to think of it. Plus, close in the PPCs don't matter as much, so they can be swung into the way to block enemy shots if need be.

My plans for the MWO:Mechlab - AWS-8V Bacon are deliciously similar- but with triple LRM-5 instead of that second PPC, just to allow indirect fire.

The MWO:Mechlab - DRG-1C Rhysticus may turn out to be a bit of a bomb, but I expect to have a blast with that autocannon-LRM combo until reaching laser range.

MWO:Mechlab - DRG-5N Shivan has a pretty obvious intent behind it. Tear open holes, exploit holes. Not quite the same kind of thing as the rest of the designs here, but probably worth exploring.

Eventually, I might even have Banshees, in which case the MWO:Mechlab - BNC-3S Lasher could bring some multi-purpose fun. ER Laser and LRM-10 for long range, boomstick and the opposite large laser for close-in combat. Also, a flamer in the head because why not?

Edited by Elli Gujar, 24 March 2014 - 05:25 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

I am -really happy- to see this thread.

I think we noticed


...I am going to have to try some of those builds.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Shar Wolf, on 24 March 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

I think we noticed


...I am going to have to try some of those builds.

Long as you don't claim to have come up with them completely on your own, I'm happy with this. ^__^

[Tesunie]

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

I am -really happy- to see this thread.

Noticed. And thanks. I've been running these balanced builds for very long time, with some exceptions (Cicadas with Med lasers/Med pulse, Jenner with med lasers and SSRMs, etc). I first ran with a Hunchback 4J. Then I created my Hunchback 4SP (with 5 med lasers and 2 LRM5s at the time). So, from the start, I was running with a balanced concept. It's nice to see that there are others of like mind here as well. (Only been told how wrong I was, at least till Ghost Heat kicked in I guess.)

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

The other Highlander, the MWO:Mechlab - HGN-733 Candycorn: Did you know you only need four LRM launchers to keep a constant barrage (not six)? Or that you can do it with two tens and two fives? You do have to manually keep up the rhythm of fire yourself (which means learning the necessary skill to keep a rhythm with just one finger, but you can do it!) but it will keep something under constant, core-shattering fire. And with the missiles focused on the center, that LB-X autocannon will happily shred components in the center torso and do added damage to the armor-stripped spot. The damage output is a little slow (curse of small missile racks), but the 'mech is faster and more agile than the Prastax and functions with a larger range envelope.

I like this one. What can I say, I like me some LRMs. I'd probably drop an LRM5 (or both) for BAP and 2 SSRM2s personally for a stronger close range defense. But I've never been in a Highlander, so I don't know how that beast runs. Honestly, it doesn't interest me all that much either. This build would make a tempting though...

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

How about the MWO:Mechlab - BJ-3 Sap: Manual fire control, people. Fire only the ER Larges at long range, and only the medium lasers at short range. The heat always stays managable (50 seconds at maximum firing rate before shutdown with either set of weapons, which is plenty to get in, wreck something, and leave), the large lasers are in high, flexible mounts for optimal fire support, and the lack of an XL engine makes it incredibly durable. (check the BJ's hitboxes sometimes. Those side torsos are huge.) In emergencies, you also have a 36-point alpha at close range, which is nothing to sneer at even if you do shut down shortly afterwards.

Maybe it's larger cousin? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a3e08fedf311c5c
(For some stupid reason, my in game one has FF instead of Endo... it makes no sense?!?)

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

The MWO:Mechlab - TDR-5SS Thundershock is a good all-ranger: LRMs for indirect fire and to keep you out of trouble until the opening stages of combat are over, large lasers for mid-range damage, and medium lasers to pump things up as you close in. A standard engine, too, which means that you're going to keep fighting to the bitter end. I have never been stick'd in this thing, though it is theoretically possible. One large laser used to be in the torso, but I find the mobility and combined reticle for the larges makes them amazing for legging lights or punching holes in armor.

I'd probably remove a single med laser for a TAG. (Actually, I'd probably remove all med lasers for TAG and an LRM 20? Maybe?) This way, the TAG and LL share the same range and targeting style. Then, when you have something TAGed, you might as well shoot the LRMs. Should run cool enough to keep all weapons running together for a while. Of course, it looks good on it's own as well too. This is probably my strong preference to use LRMs kicking in, and can be ignored overall...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a907eeb6ca8c837

But I probably would at least consider adding the TAG in?

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

To fit very closely with your original idea, MWO:Mechlab - STK-3F Prowler: My own take on the multi-function 3F stalker. ER large lasers aren't very hot, overall, and the high mountings makes them great for hill-humping. LRMs are good for the opening stages of battle and can be combined with the large lasers in direct fire. It does require a fourth weapon group for the SRMs (since they need to be led and the medium lasers don't), but they combine nicely with the medium lasers for a hefty close-up barrage. In emergencies, the large lasers can be thrown in as well, making a deadly burst of damage firing everything not-LRM.

Hard points... not... even...
Anyway... Not bad. Heavy focus to long range, which is good. And did not neglect the close range as well. Good balance here. I like it. I'm guessing one has to watch their heat on this one. I can see this being very deadly. Just have to avoid the tempation of overheating to deal more damage...

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

Also, there's the closest thing I have left to a 'big bad missile boat'- MWO:Mechlab - STK-5S Predator: Here's the two-tens-two-fives combo. Of course, it rarely gets put together with a nasty close-range laser salvo like this. The lasers run a bit hot, but I find if I have them on two weapon groups (one for the right side, the other for the left) it's pretty tolerable, and the emergency 42-damage punch at close range will really mess up someone's 'mech. CASE means losing one side only ever loses you one side, too, which is convenient for the left-right laser groups.

I use to run a similar build for my Stalker. 4 LRM5s and 6 med lasers. Ran very hot, but was effective for a long time. I'd image that this one runs hot as well? Though the LPLs work very well with the med lasers...

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

In things I haven't done yet, but intend to:

The MWO:Mechlab - BLR-1S Warlord II promises to be a devastating anti-assault-assault, with long range barrages followed up by a fusillade of missiles and lasers (since I know how to lead SRMs, which most people apparently have a lot of trouble with).

MWO:Mechlab - VTR-9B Preston will likely ruin someone's day- ER lasers to pick at range, and then smack-crunch goes the shelling close in.

MWO:Mechlab - VTR-9K Deputy Dan will find us, no matter how far we go. (He also reminds us not to follow the ball when it makes the street.)

The MWO:Mechlab - HBK-4J Orphan is the lost third half of your Stalker, Tesu....

I planned the MWO:Mechlab - JM6-A Absolom specifically to make a fun, functional lopsided build. Perhaps the dual-15s should be artemis-10s, but I expect I'll wind up mostly shooting heavier stuff with it. As a fun additional note, it's absolutely atypical of Jaegermechs.

MWO:Mechlab - AWS-8Q Barndoor is expected to swap from PPCs to pulse lasers at closer ranges, so that it can still hit... and probably hit harder, come to think of it. Plus, close in the PPCs don't matter as much, so they can be swung into the way to block enemy shots if need be.

My plans for the MWO:Mechlab - AWS-8V Bacon are deliciously similar- but with triple LRM-5 instead of that second PPC, just to allow indirect fire.

The MWO:Mechlab - DRG-1C Rhysticus may turn out to be a bit of a bomb, but I expect to have a blast with that autocannon-LRM combo until reaching laser range.

MWO:Mechlab - DRG-5N Shivan has a pretty obvious intent behind it. Tear open holes, exploit holes. Not quite the same kind of thing as the rest of the designs here, but probably worth exploring.

Eventually, I might even have Banshees, in which case the MWO:Mechlab - BNC-3S Lasher could bring some multi-purpose fun. ER Laser and LRM-10 for long range, boomstick and the opposite large laser for close-in combat. Also, a flamer in the head because why not?

I like a lot of these, though I think some of them you will find will run hot. You'll probably have to adjust after testing, but that is why these are not around yet and not finalized.

Only notes I have to say:
Battlemaster: I'd suggest you move that ammo out of the CT. Probably a side torso or head would be good.
Dragon with LRMs: They can work well, so don't get me wrong (I use to use LRMs on my Dragon). I find that some SRMs or SSRMs work better with the Dragon, considering the speeds it can travel at. I found my Dragon personally had better preformance with SSRMs instead of LRMs. (This is by no means saying that you can't do LRMs. Just saying I've tried them before myself and they were alright, but not great.)
Other Dragon: Really like this. Dual ERPPCs and 3 MGs. Sounds leathal.
Banshee 3S: I'd suggest removing the Flamer (unless you like it there) for a TAG. This will help your long range, and probably make it's close range more effective heat wise. Also, TAG bonus...

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Noticed. And thanks. I've been running these balanced builds for very long time, with some exceptions (Cicadas with Med lasers/Med pulse, Jenner with med lasers and SSRMs, etc). I first ran with a Hunchback 4J. Then I created my Hunchback 4SP (with 5 med lasers and 2 LRM5s at the time). So, from the start, I was running with a balanced concept. It's nice to see that there are others of like mind here as well. (Only been told how wrong I was, at least till Ghost Heat kicked in I guess.)

Interesting. I started with Cicadas myself, but I only kept one of them (since the laser-arms cicada is... kinda dumb, really, the ballistic one was fun for a while but doesn't really bring anything worthwhile for my preferred methodology, and the ECM cicada was so expensive compared to my C-bills at the time that I never bothered buying it.

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

I like this one. What can I say, I like me some LRMs. I'd probably drop an LRM5 (or both) for BAP and 2 SSRM2s personally for a stronger close range defense. But I've never been in a Highlander, so I don't know how that beast runs. Honestly, it doesn't interest me all that much either. This build would make a tempting though...

Well, this one's leaning more towards long range fire. Especially since that LB-X does terrifying things to 'mechs that have been softened up already. If I were trying to brawl with it instead of doing missile support I would do that, but I already have a brawling HGN.

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Maybe it's larger cousin? (For some stupid reason, my in game one has FF instead of Endo... it makes no sense?!?)

I actually plan to do something like that with a QKD-5K when I get around to picking one up again, but with ERLL instead of standard (because scraping paint at long range is a hilarious way to get people to duck).

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

I'd probably remove a single med laser for a TAG. (Actually, I'd probably remove all med lasers for TAG and an LRM 20? Maybe?)

....wait, you'd remove the vast majority of the close-range high-efficiency firepower to turn this thing into a single-LRM20 missile/LL support 'mech? This is an extremely counter methodology to what you proposed in your OP!

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

This way, the TAG and LL share the same range and targeting style. Then, when you have something TAGed, you might as well shoot the LRMs. Should run cool enough to keep all weapons running together for a while. Of course, it looks good on it's own as well too. This is probably my strong preference to use LRMs kicking in, and can be ignored overall...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a907eeb6ca8c837

But I probably would at least consider adding the TAG in?

I would too if I hadn't popped something like half a dozen trial stalkers with the quad-MLas battery on this thing.

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Hard points... not... even...

Mmmm-mmm, I love me some asymmetry. Delicious.

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Anyway... Not bad. Heavy focus to long range, which is good. And did not neglect the close range as well. Good balance here. I like it. I'm guessing one has to watch their heat on this one. I can see this being very deadly. Just have to avoid the tempation of overheating to deal more damage...

Really, it only ever runs hot if you try to use the ERLLs at close range (which is what the Mlas and SRMs are for, so you shouldn't be doing it anyway except in emergencies).

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

I use to run a similar build for my Stalker. 4 LRM5s and 6 med lasers. Ran very hot, but was effective for a long time. I'd image that this one runs hot as well? Though the LPLs work very well with the med lasers...

I did say it runs hot. But it also punishes the torsos off of enemies who assume that you're just an LRM boat and they can facehug you with impunity.

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

I like a lot of these, though I think some of them you will find will run hot. You'll probably have to adjust after testing, but that is why these are not around yet and not finalized.

Well, yes.

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Only notes I have to say:

Battlemaster: I'd suggest you move that ammo out of the CT. Probably a side torso or head would be good.

Not a chance. While engine crits don't do anything to the 'mech (nor do gyro crits), they still interfere with the chance of crit to any particular location. That means each slot in the CT has a 1/12 chance of being hit by any one critical hit. Having ammo in a side torso with an XL engine is asking to be blown up if you could instead place it somewhere better protected (like the center torso, which has more armor). Besides, since the AMS ammo is in the head, and the side torsos are absolutely full anyways, I couldn't follow that advice even if I wanted to.

I would love to continue replying at this point, but I have to wait for someone else. Apparently, only ten and a half quotes are allowed per post- the BBS keeps telling me that 'the number of quote openings is different from the number of close quotes' despite the fact that there were exactly 13 of each- and wouldn't stop until I removed the last three quotes. So someone else will have to say something in between here, because the stupid piece of atlas-facebump-chestgrinding urbanmech-fielding MASC-overusing pain-in-the-hip-actuators PPC-alphastriking scrap wouldn't let me post with quotes. Also, it keeps folding my posts together, thus reinstating the exact same oil-burning dual-gauss-to-the-head standing-in-the-open-waiting-to-get-shot problem.

Argh I hate you too forum program.

Edited by Elli Gujar, 24 March 2014 - 07:27 PM.

[Tesunie]

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Interesting. I started with Cicadas myself, but I only kept one of them (since the laser-arms cicada is... kinda dumb, really, the ballistic one was fun for a while but doesn't really bring anything worthwhile for my preferred methodology, and the ECM cicada was so expensive compared to my C-bills at the time that I never bothered buying it.

I kept all my Cicadas I owned. I never got the arm laser one. I have one with 6 med lasers. One with ECM and 4 pulse lasers. And my Odd ball "Hollander III" Cicada 3C: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...60c653d5c1bff86
I love them, but I don't play them very often. (Like my LRMs too much I guess.) Cicada's are an old favorite of mine. Just like Jenners. Cicada's and Stalkers are favorites from the card game. The Jenner is from back in MW2 days, as that was my ride with jump, and 2 CERPPCs...

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Well, this one's leaning more towards long range fire. Especially since that LB-X does terrifying things to 'mechs that have been softened up already. If I were trying to brawl with it instead of doing missile support I would do that, but I already have a brawling HGN.

I like to have enough close up punch to take out lights when they get to me, while still having enough long range support to help while I move into range (and to open options for when and how I wish to engage my targets). However, I wouldn't mind trying your build either if I had a Highlander. It could tempt me to get one, but I don't like them in the least and admit it. (Basically, it could be the best mech in the game, I probably still wouldn't touch it.)

Your build just has more LRMs than I am comfortable with. It does remind me of my highly effective Thunderbolt build, before I changed it to a build that worked better with my skills. (Me and ACs seem to not get along. But the LBx seems to like me.)
(I'd post a link of the old build I use to have, but I never saved a copy of it on Smurfy... I can tell you it was the (P) version, with LRMs and an LBx. Was all it had, and somehow it worked fairly well. Well enough to have one of my higher K/D rate scores on it.)

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

I actually plan to do something like that with a QKD-5K when I get around to picking one up again, but with ERLL instead of standard (because scraping paint at long range is a hilarious way to get people to duck).

ERLL and LLs are up to taste. I have LLs for a cooler ride, as I alternate between the 4 med lasers and the 2 LLs when people get close. I can keep a fairly steady pattern of those two shooting off at people, which means decent damage. Don't think I could pull that off so well with the ERLLs. But (following above advice I wrote myself), "if you use each weapon in it's own range band"... sometimes my own words can kick myself in my own rear...

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

....wait, you'd remove the vast majority of the close-range high-efficiency firepower to turn this thing into a single-LRM20 missile/LL support 'mech? This is an extremely counter methodology to what you proposed in your OP!

Like here...

There are exceptions to every rule. In this case, I think I tried this on a Battlemaster (1G I think). It worked alright, but wasn't the greatest. So, after testing, I'd probably end up changing it to what you have...
(Old 1G build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...93ca7e6b7432021 )

But, for my own defense, the reason I would probably do the 2 LLs, TAG and LRM20 would be because the 2 LLs can deal the same damage as 3ish (almost 4) med lasers, so it would retain it's close in fighting, but lose it's "burst of damage in desperate times" ability...

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

I would too if I hadn't popped something like half a dozen trial stalkers with the quad-MLas battery on this thing.

Med lasers are nice in sets of 4... I must concede that point... My Hunchback does great with it's 4 med lasers, and so does my Stalker 3F. Must never mess with the system!

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Really, it only ever runs hot if you try to use the ERLLs at close range (which is what the Mlas and SRMs are for, so you shouldn't be doing it anyway except in emergencies).

I'm being tutored by the new guy to the thread! GAH! (But yes. Completely agreed. I'd probably occationally would forget and shoot them, shutting myself down a couple times. Depends upon the situation. I've really improved my "shoot these weapons here, and these weapons here" skills over the past year. But I still have times when, well, shall we say I have missiles bounce off my opponents heads and me cursing for wasting the ammo... )

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

I did say it runs hot. But it also punishes the torsos off of enemies who assume that you're just an LRM boat and they can facehug you with impunity.

I love it when people confuse any of my builds for an "LRM boat". They always get a nice little "SURPRISE" in their faces when they do. Such a wonderful thing when it happens.

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Well, yes.

It's okay. I have a ton of mechs on my "theoretical" list. My Griffin was there originally. I had it with one less SSRM2 system and with 2 MPLs. Ran too hot and was shutting down very quickly. A little tweak later, and it's doing 400+ damage as it's average match score!

Elli Gujar, on 24 March 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Not a chance. While engine crits don't do anything to the 'mech (nor do gyro crits), they still interfere with the chance of crit to any particular location. That means each slot in the CT has a 1/12 chance of being hit by any one critical hit. Having ammo in a side torso with an XL engine is asking to be blown up if you could instead place it somewhere better protected (like the center torso, which has more armor). Besides, since the AMS ammo is in the head, and the side torsos are absolutely full anyways, I couldn't follow that advice even if I wanted to.

I would love to continue replying at this point, but I have to wait for someone else. Apparently, only ten and a half quotes are allowed per post- the BBS keeps telling me that 'the number of quote openings is different from the number of close quotes' despite the fact that there were exactly 13 of each- and wouldn't stop until I removed the last three quotes. So someone else will have to say something in between here, because the stupid piece of atlas-facebump-chestgrinding urbanmech-fielding MASC-overusing pain-in-the-hip-actuators PPC-alphastriking scrap wouldn't let me post with quotes. Also, it keeps folding my posts together, thus reinstating the exact same oil-burning dual-gauss-to-the-head standing-in-the-open-waiting-to-get-shot problem.

Argh I hate you too forum program.

Silly me for not looking. All I know is, somehow I ended up having 1 ton of ammo stuffed in my CT on my Thunderbolt, and it kepted exploding and killing me. I kept yelling at my screen "I don't have ammo there! How did I die!" Well, took a second look after a while and, behold, ammo. 1 ton of it. I'm just like " How did you end up there!?" Was rather humorous in hind sight.

10 posts are the max. Yes. It's annoying. Maybe grouping quotes together more? Or picking and choosing which sections to respond to? (Otherwise, I probably would have loved to respond to each build, but I do think that would have also been overkill.)

Also, if you wait about 10-15 minutes, it will let you post a new post under your old one without merging. I'm not sure what the required time gap is though...

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Dragon with LRMs: They can work well, so don't get me wrong (I use to use LRMs on my Dragon). I find that some SRMs or SSRMs work better with the Dragon, considering the speeds it can travel at. I found my Dragon personally had better preformance with SSRMs instead of LRMs. (This is by no means saying that you can't do LRMs. Just saying I've tried them before myself and they were alright, but not great.)

I have other intended Dragons for SSRM use.

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Other Dragon: Really like this. Dual ERPPCs and 3 MGs. Sounds leathal.

Sounds RATTLERATTLERATTLE. (Also- it's spelled 'lethal'.)

Tesunie, on 24 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Banshee 3S: I'd suggest removing the Flamer (unless you like it there) for a TAG. This will help your long range, and probably make it's close range more effective heat wise. Also, TAG bonus...

Oh, you and your TAG bonuses. I'm more interested in winning the match, and while the damage on a flamer isn't noticeable and the heat only makes overheating likely rather than certain.... they're hellaciously good at obscuring peoples' views so lights can't navigate and nobody can see clearly enough to shoot well.

You'd know if you've ever run afoul of Clan PIG. They like to run one ECM light with a trio of 3Flamer-AC/20 Boar's Heads. If they're not ambushing you it's fairly easy to stay out of range with faster 'mechs, but the moment they get the drop on you you're pretty much already toast.