263 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Quote

admits to playing RPGMMO's... already stopped listening.. to him. go Larp or something dude..

I LARP with these guys. I also dig giant robots.



You got a problem with that?

And honestly, a match -generator- would work better than a pure 3/3/3/3.

1) MM generates a random weight table.
2) MM finds pairs in the same weight and ELO range, slotting one on each side and working it's way down 1:1 until the weight table is filled.
3) 12 pairs later, a PUG team is generated.

[Jman5]

CapperDeluxe, on 17 March 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Tonnage/Class balancing is not at all related to what the meta does. Meta can and will only change based on weapon balance changes, and other gameplay affecting balance changes.

But Battle Value itself isn't perfect either. A high BV Centurion may still be no match to a lower/equal BV Cataphract for instance, because of so many other factors that make that the case (Meta usage, pilot skill, etc). The only way to make BV account for this is to have the numbers dynamic based on the Meta at the time. I can't begin to imagine how hard that would be to quantify the numbers that way.

Assmodeus, on 17 March 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

Every alternative in this thread worth considering requires heavy balancing. Battle point are cool and will probably come some day. Just look at that other mech game PGI runs, it's hex/turn based, isn't it? As if they don't want battle points in MWO, but battle points alone isn't a solution, it's only a piece. That's why the simple 3/3/3/3 is attractive. It's cheap and quick. Personally, I hope they use profiles to allow matches like 3/4/3/2 or 3/5/3/1 along with 3/3/3/3.

I liked these two posts the best. 3/3/3/3 or any other quick and dirty solution is a compromise to reality. Let's be honest here, PGI is struggling to even properly balance the game in a timely manner. Now you want them to create a completely new set of balance headaches that determine how every team is created? It's unrealistic given the scope and speed of development for this game. It's unrealistic because of the extremely complex nature of balancing BV when there is so much customization.

One interesting thing I notice in all these BV threads is that no one ever goes into specifics. How much is an LB10X worth? How much is a UAC/5 worth? You can't just copy/paste the tabletop BV and let it loose. MWO is a completely different animal. Furthermore, you would need to be constantly evolving these numbers as you learn more about balance and the meta naturally changes over time. Hell, PGI hasn't even adjusted their weapon module range numbers after they increased the base ranges of MPL, LPL, and AMS. You expect them to keep up with a BV system on top of everything else? This is just more dev time away from other things.

Hard systems like the mech quotas are not perfect. In an ideal world if I could throw in some perfect Battle Value system it would work better. However, often times in life you need to make compromises for expediency and simplicity. This is one of them and I'll take it. Whatever gets me away from 10-12 heavy/assaults per team.

Edited by Jman5, 28 March 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[InsiderGamer]

Jman5, on 28 March 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

I liked these two posts the best. 3/3/3/3 or any other quick and dirty solution is a compromise to reality. Let's be honest here, PGI is struggling to even properly balance the game in a timely manner. Now you want them to create a completely new set of balance headaches that determine how every team is created? It's unrealistic given the scope and speed of development for this game. It's unrealistic because of the extremely complex nature of balancing BV when there is so much customization.

One interesting thing I notice in all these BV threads is that no one ever goes into specifics. How much is an LB10X worth? How much is a UAC/5 worth? You can't just copy/paste the tabletop BV and let it loose. MWO is a completely different animal. Furthermore, you would need to be constantly evolving these numbers as you learn more about balance and the meta naturally changes over time. Hell, PGI hasn't even adjusted their weapon module range numbers after they increased the base ranges of MPL, LPL, and AMS. You expect them to keep up with a BV system on top of everything else? This is just more dev time away from other things.

Hard systems like the mech quotas are not perfect. In an ideal world if I could throw in some perfect Battle Value system it would work better. However, often times in life you need to make compromises for expediency and simplicity. This is one of them and I'll take it. Whatever gets me away from 10-12 heavy/assaults per team.

I normally don't comment like this, and if so, generally don't quote someone who had quoted others, but these 3 individuals sum up my opinion on this so well. The perfect being the enemy of what's necessary - this isn't perfect, but it'll do.

Balancing via BV has been suggested and contested so many times - adjusting values constantly based on meta is untenable when we want so much else out of the game at the moment.

As someone wiser than me once put it: That'll do, pig, that'll do.

Edited by InsiderGamer, 28 March 2014 - 06:24 AM.

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 17 March 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Why not just have Role Warfare?

Might aswell forget about that now. Role warfare will never happen in MWO.
Imagine the outcry on the forums when light pilots are suddenly expected to scout and harass the enemy instead of being front-line combat mechs.
PGI messed up so many things from the start that they cannot change now.

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 28 March 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

I LARP with these guys. I also dig giant robots.



You got a problem with that?

Yeah... I do!
...
...
...
I can't believe you are part of an Undead Army Wanderer!

[wanderer]

I said "with". As in, that's Mythodea, the game I play at when I go visit Germany. The NPC's range from neat to "Pray for nearest deity for deliverance", like the Undead Flesh folks there.

Never mind the players. Best time I ever had for almost being dropped into a flaming cauldron by zealots. They play big there:



Last year was about 8000ish folks for the week, right after Drachenfest. Role Models, it ain't.

Edited by wanderer, 28 March 2014 - 07:03 AM.

[nehebkau]

Trauglodyte, on 17 March 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

3/3/3/3 is a great thing but it is pointless without a maximum tonnage limit. Then again, PGI is balancing around the 84% that solo drop so what do we know?

Battle values help the 84% much more than the others. The more I read on battle values the more I come to recognize that it and a pilot's ELO are probably the best way that PGI could balance drops in a game.

[East Indy]

Overlooked benefit to 3/3/3/3: are you tired of groups that are so heavy on each side that half or all of your assaults are cowering in fear of the match's average weight?

Now you and a couple friends can totally control the performance of one weight class. That's huge.

[Joseph Mallan]

Davion Assault Gurad
10th Lyran Guard
Zeta battalion Wolf's Dragoons
Storms Metal Thunder

just a few Units known for their weight brought to the battlefield. If you want to be a good comfortable Mix of Mechs that is great, BUT there are folks that want to be an Assault command 3/3/3/3 is only fun if that is what you envision your group being.

I don't fully know our final TO&E But I know we have a lot of heavy players an a lot of fast scouts. Why in the name of Unity would we come to your planet with conquest in mind, and then willingly handicap our effort???

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 28 March 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

I said "with". As in, that's Mythodea, the game I play at when I go visit Germany. The NPC's range from neat to "Pray for nearest deity for deliverance", like the Undead Flesh folks there.

Never mind the players. Best time I ever had for almost being dropped into a flaming cauldron by zealots. They play big there:



Last year was about 8000ish folks for the week, right after Drachenfest. Role Models, it ain't.

Guess we are having a Bill Clinton moment.

I game with my daughter and her friends... I do not just game in the same room as them.

Those Undead guys are really cool looking though!

[Mavairo]

Irontygr, on 27 March 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

^ admits to playing RPGMMO's... already stopped listening.. to him. go Larp or something dude..



Leave mom out of this, I told your mom last night that i wouldn't mention anything.

Aw look it's kingfaceroller.
Complete with your mom jokes, really. Do you leave your mother's basement much?
Also, have you not seen some LAARP stuff? Some of those guys go really all in with their costumes.
Geek and proud of it. Damn right. Being a geek got me farther in life, than what people double my age have.

If you don't think this game is geek pr0n in the extreme you need your head examined, or maybe you've drunk too much PBR to have any braincells left. We're playing a game with 20+ ton Bipedal Mechs, armed with Lasers, rockets, cannons and machine guns.

If you think you're some how "one of the cool kids" playing this game man, I'd say I want whatever your having, but really the question gets to be asked. Are your feet wet? Because you are standing knee deep in Denile.

Maybe you should go play a brainless game, like something on the Wii/Wii U or maybe some COD. It clearly suits you better.

Edited by Mavairo, 28 March 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[Malcolm Reynolds]

ITS NOT WHAT YOU DRIVE ITS HOW YOU DRIVE IT!!!!! I have defeated Altlas DDC's in a jenner, a shadowhawk and a K2. I have played matches where we were down two and underweight and still kicked them in the teeth. this bitching about being outweighed or too many assualts and heavys is bull its your piloting skill that determines victory. if you have shit players with you your going to lose even if you have a weight advantage. Real armies do not do whats fair the set up their units to preform the task they needed them to do..... here is a real world example. BLACK HAWK DOWN. few stomped the shit out of many. Better yet TAFFY 3 A small detatchment of destroyers escort destroyers a light carriers out gunned out toned didn't even belong in the same ocean as Kuritas Centerforce and they fought like lions and prevailed. SO don't give me tons make victory BATTLE SKILL ALWAYS has advantage over size.

Edited by Kitsune Kaji, 02 April 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Murzao]

You know what's funny is the baddie assault/heavies that cower in a group to poptart and rely on other assaults to protect them are gonna get swarmed so hard from medium striker lances......that they will cower and ball up even more because they have less weapons guarding them. Most of them don't even poke their nose around a hill first unless they have a huge zergball of weight.

I personally can't wait for this because heavy/assaults are a breeze to kill 1v1 or 1v2 in a medium

[oldradagast]

Rubidiy, on 17 March 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

I see one huge downside of 3-3-3-3. Each time some new mech is being released, people won't be able to find a proper match for entire weight class of a new chassis, because everyone would want to drop in a new mech. Problem is that players need to drop a lot in a new mech, cause they have to level up in three versions of a chassis.

This is my biggest problem with it. Oh, you want to level up a new assault mech? Good luck getting a game for that...

[Haji1096]

The 3-3-3-3 system assumes an equal distribution of chassis type among the player population. PGI hasn't released any information regarding what the distribution is and how it changes over time.

I hate matches where my tea outweighed, do 400 damage in a Hunchback and end up losing simply because the enemy team has more firepower and can absorb more damage. But I don't think its fair to punish people if they want to play assaults. If a player is spending time to grinding an assault and then has to wait 10 minutes for a match....that player is not going to stick around.

No one has addressed this issue.

[Monkeystador]

4x3 is a start. Not like anyone is forced to pilot anything else than your assault poptart. It just takes longer to get into a game since the matchmaker has to find enough non assault mechs.

If poeple are not just {Richard Cameron} and can adapt just a little they pick another class if it is hard to get a game for an assault.

Edited by Monkeystador, 08 April 2014 - 05:20 AM.

[Koniving]

Everyone, everyone, please.

I have said what I will say on this subject. I refer you to them.

My signatures.
On the left, we have the what was told to us about Community Warfare at the Launch Party (seen here) which is what this 3/3/3/3 system will have cost us.
On the right, we have the feelings of someone who has been playing since early closed beta who within 2 days was so excited I got a Veteran Founder's package and upgraded once every two weeks quite happily... only to see the game change from that simulator to what we have now.

[Thunder Lips Express]

FupDup, on 17 March 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Tonnage Limits, 3/3/3/3, Tiers, Battlevalue....


Why not just have Role Warfare? Why not have maps larger than shoe boxes, so that mobility and scouting are much more important? Why not restructure rewards so that shooting everything that moves isn't the only reliable way to make some cash? Why not give each class (or possibly even chassis, if we're ambitious enough) their own unique XP tree, instead of giving every single mech the same copy-paste that reduces the weaknesses of mechs that shouldn't really be maneuverable (notice how most of the XP tree unlocks are based on making your mech more agile?)? Why not have every class able to be equally valuable contributors to their team, while having vastly different (but complementing) strengths and weaknesses?

...But we can't have that, because PGI prefers their "top tier avatar" system. They want to clearly outline which mechs they want to be the best in the game and which mechs they want to shine the shoes of the top dogs.

All of your ideas are cool to me, unfortunately I just think they are incapable of implementing anything other then team death match type stuff, otherwise we wouldn't be waiting 2+ years on promises of cw (which if and when we get it I'm afraid it will be a shadow of what we are expecting it to be)

[grayson marik]

Funny thing is, in ISW 1.0 one possible drop rule was 3/3/3/3 and it was the most played ruleset people chose. even more often than the also possible: "no rules at all"

Even 3/3/3/3 with weigh limit was often played and enjoyed...

Ok,OK those where 12v12 syncdrops in a league setting... still it was fun.

IN ISW 2 we will use both, a BV like system called MBV and 3/3/3/3 as possible rulesets.

[SausageParty]

Why not have 2 servers? One for people that cry and one for people who dont. A simple check box for the choice? Atleast it would eliminate the long cue times for people who dont cry...No?