12 replies to this topic

[trollocaustic]

ECM as it stands, is a no-brainer, and an I-win button.

So far, I think there's a realistic, neat, and very effective solution.

Make it so the ECM can only fool sensors for so long, sooner or later it's gonn realize the deception, it's not like the entire mech is coated in Radar absorbant stuff and built like a F-22 to deflect targetting.

ECM, once in normal scanner range, will start runnign down a "Meter" that shows how long until the gig is up.

This meter starts off as 1%/s per mech in scanner range, a 10%/s for being narc or tagged, and 2%/s bonus for ECMs in counter mode and BAPs, BAPs also instantly defeat a single ECM in a larger radius and keep it that way until it escapes, then proceeds to one-shot another one.

Numbers might be a bit low, but ECM needs to go down HARD

[SilverStarDragon]

What about those ssrm mechs like the Shadow hawks and Catapults? The Shadowhawk in particular can hunt down and brutally cripple lights in a few rounds- ecm or not.

Ecm can just be countered by a friendly getting close/countering (also get bonuses for that )
Over all I just see ecm as a counter to flaws in game balance so removing it would really bring on those lrm and ssrm mechs...not my kind of battle

[trollocaustic]

ECM shuts down targetting, radar, et cetra, which are all key parts of tactics, by simply placing a single pile of crap on a mech.

And yes, SSRM-boats are MEANT to murder lights, it's merely that ECM can counter the light mech's only counter is another part of why it's OP.

[SilverStarDragon]

I guess that's what I'm getting at with the "roles" part - ssrm mechs are there to destroy the speedy lights, ecm mechs provide cover from 'auto-aim' weapons and make crossing plains (like tourmaline desert or Alpine) a bit safer for assaults. Depending on what mech you play, there will always be those 'unfair' mechs which are your ideal enemies, it just changes.

Ecm seems fair to me (not trying to disrespect your opinion in anyway - just my thoughts ), BAP, UAVs, other ecm and close-combat can all counter a rival ecm mechs cover and if an ecm enemy gets close, there is a warning as your map gets fuzzy. Seismic also reveals locations.

The idea of an ecm bar IS interesting and would put a new spin on the game and tactics (yay for strategy!), but if it goes, the next problem is auto-aim weapons will be viewed over-powered...

[DEMAX51]

ECM has come a long way since it was first implemented. In its current form, it's far from an "I win" button.

[trollocaustic]

Quote

The idea of an ecm bar IS interesting and would put a new spin on the game and tactics (yay for strategy!), but if it goes, the next problem is auto-aim weapons will be viewed over-powered...

Rarely does more than one scout target an area at once when sighting for LRMs, in comparison, the raven/spider scouting often runs into multiple mechs, a single mech (such as a scout) will take a whole 1:40 to defeat the ECM, compared to a rapid drop if a raven or spider runs into the enemy team, as is normal.

So, using ECM to deter LRM-spam before a direct conflict is still rather effective, but using ECM as a "lolcantcounterme" agains SSRMs and in order to and i'll use a WoT term here "Face-scout" the enemy is less effective.

So those ravens and spiders using ecm and running into the enemy are hindered, but an Atlas or Cicada staying with the main group to deter LRM would still be fairly effective.

[Niklaus Kotare]

trollocaustic, on 17 March 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

ECM as it stands, is a no-brainer, and an I-win button.

So far, I think there's a realistic, neat, and very effective solution.

There is nothing I like better than my anti-ecm mechs/builds. I often hunt ECM mechs exclusively and very successfully with much enjoyment as a dedicated role. The solution is using the existing countermeasures effectively, not changing game mechanics unnecessarily because of frustration due to a lack of experience or imagination. It can be done. ECM is far from "god-mode".

[trollocaustic]

Given how you NEED a entire mech to counter a subset of a already "Counter it or die" type, this really forces you to only build that way.

BAP only counters up to 150m range, ECM mechs tend to be faster than you, and like hell they'll let you in that range.

[SilverStarDragon]

"you NEED an entire mech to counter"? Just a thought...do you play with lrm/ssrm boats most of the time?
Ecm does NOT effect any other weapon other than the 'auto-aim' lrms+ssrms; ballistics and energy weapons work against any mech.

If you get confronted by an ecm light, just put your back to the wall and torso twist - gives you better aim and us lights know it. When ever a player does that, we can't 'shadow' your mech's back anymore so a heavier class mech's armour/firepower wins and most (sensible) lights will retreat once the damage alarms start going off
Also, you can make a few 'intimidation' changes to your loadouts. For the ecm lights, ac20s in particular leave me a bit wary from confrontation as 1 shot and there goes a limb...I also tend to avoid mechs with pulse weapons or others that can cause a lot of damage with little contact time with my mech. Just little changes like that can shift what mechs are willing to test their luck 1v1.


Other wise, ecm is a ton a mech could have used for more firepower or more armour, sacrificing that for a little bit of masked-travel seems logical for most mechs, whether for scouting/recon, ease of movement or strategy.

Is there a certain mech you find 'over powered' with ecm or just all of them in general?

Edited by SilverStarDragon, 18 March 2014 - 04:14 PM.

[trollocaustic]

Generally it's the spider and raven I can't stand, mostly because of their small hitboxes, I pack a pair of streak launchers to deter lights, but the addition of ECM makes me wonder more and more whether I should just dump the 4 tons I'm spending on them and use it to upgrade a med laser to a large one.

Non-ECM lights are likely only used to farm experience to get elite upgrades for the ECM one, thus meaning there's very few non-ECM lights to use the SSRM on, which ruins the whole point of them.

[Niklaus Kotare]

trollocaustic, on 18 March 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Given how you NEED a entire mech to counter a subset of a already "Counter it or die" type, this really forces you to only build that way.

So what?

Maybe Battletech isn't your cup of tea if you're going to demand that only build types you fancy be able to thrive for you under all conditions. It's a long cited axiom of real combat that, "NO plan survives first contact with the enemy." You need to be prepared to dynamically adapt and overcome the tactical challenges that your enemy employs against you, not unrealistically demand that an inferior idea come out on top. You adapt to reality or you're continually wiped off the field frustrated when your enemy's tactics continue to overcome your own. Failing to plan to overcome an enemy capability is planning to fail. It would be different if the mechanics failed to provide countermeasures for ECM, but it does and does so well.

Moreover, you do realize that to run a mech with ECM limits you more than any build with a capability to counter it does, don't you? You can fit almost any mech to hunt ECM, and it's useful and satisfying, while there are less than a handful of mechs that can mount the ECM module. MWO is not a solo game. If your side is incapable of supporting each other as a team and insists on running off in separate cardinal directions, you can only prevail when your opponent is even less capable of teamwork than you are (which sadly seems more often than not a coin toss with PUGs).

Or do you simply simply prefer being the caustic troll employing fallacy to combat reason and tactics that are both fun as well as effective? "Caustic troll".. I wonder where I got that from - strange concept. . o O [Perhaps I read that somewhere]

Edited by Herc Conley, 18 March 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[SilverStarDragon]

Hm...I have noticed that too. Most lights used are ecm equipped but that may be if a pilot is nervous of starting in a new chassis that they want a bit of cover until they learn the ropes or just prefer it for their battle style. The firestarters, jenners and the ballistic spider (5k if I remember correctly) are great fun but ever since the Medium Mech vs the world challenge, I find the ecm models have become more favourable simply because more and more people are loading the ssrms and it's hard to get far when a light and a ssrm mech team up, crippled in seconds - ecm gives a few seconds to escape...lol

Something that works against the ecm lights in ssrm boats is to load the Target Decay/360* target retention modules, gives the ssrmer more time to hold a lock as a target tries to escape around the corner and lock power over the back-shadow lights.

Depending on play style (stick with team or a bit more daring) the laser could benefit. I find it takes 3+ ssrms to hand out the hurting to lights as on chain fire there is a constant warning and damage stream which sends off that 'retreat' thought - however chase too far and when escape seems impossible, lights can try to harass for as long as we stand alive to get the points+kill possibly; as most times...escape is difficult (from shadow hawks especially )

[trollocaustic]

Herc Conley, on 18 March 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

So what?

Maybe Battletech isn't your cup of tea if you're going to demand that only build types you fancy be able to thrive for you under all conditions. It's a long cited axiom of real combat that, "NO plan survives first contact with the enemy." You need to be prepared to dynamically adapt and overcome the tactical challenges that your enemy employs against you, not unrealistically demand that an inferior idea come out on top. You adapt to reality or you're continually wiped off the field frustrated when your enemy's tactics continue to overcome your own. Failing to plan to overcome an enemy capability is planning to fail. It would be different if the mechanics failed to provide countermeasures for ECM, but it does and does so well.

Moreover, you do realize that to run a mech with ECM limits you more than any build with a capability to counter it does, don't you? You can fit almost any mech to hunt ECM, and it's useful and satisfying, while there are less than a handful of mechs that can mount the ECM module. MWO is not a solo game. If your side is incapable of supporting each other as a team and insists on running off in separate cardinal directions, you can only prevail when your opponent is even less capable of teamwork than you are (which sadly seems more often than not a coin toss with PUGs).

Or do you simply simply prefer being the caustic troll employing fallacy to combat reason and tactics that are both fun as well as effective? "Caustic troll".. I wonder where I got that from - strange concept. . o O [Perhaps I read that somewhere]

Just tell me then, how do you counter an ECM mech without building your mech entirely around countering one type of one model of one subset of mech?

Exactly, your ECM-defense relies entirely on the concept that being able to be stealth while in the face of the enemy is balanced, when in reality, it isn't.

ECM's power is obivous in that jenners are far less common now than before, almost every light mech you see is a spider or a raven, a Build designed to counter ECM relies on multiple heavy items, high speed, and likely very specialized setup, while the ECM mech is free to build the rest of his mech however he likes because the damn 1.5 tons is all he needs to think about.

Basically, ECM, as it stands right now, is overpowered, and requires excessive effort to counter compared to everything else.