33 replies to this topic

[Danghen Woolf]

Rant Initialized.......... loading........

I really try not to post very often in the balance forums as a general rule. I am a purist, I love Battletech, I even enjoy some of the advanced rules that have been added in the newer books. I enjoy MWO, is it a replacement for TT? No, use MegaMek for that. I digress.

The current state of MWO is pretty good. I am satisfied with the artistic license PGI has taken with my beloved mechs. I enjoy the maps. I can work within the hardpoint system. Ghost heat, okay, I get it, heat neutral mechs offer significant advantages in the FPS realm that new players would not be able to compete with.

Here is the deal, here is why MWO is imbalanced... the Min/Maxers. In ANY game where players can customize anything you are going to get them. Think about it, use your brainpans. Other games have spawn campers; you think that will not happen when drops are implemented? What about vehicular based games? Steal the enemies' vehicles so they cannot use them. Sounds like exploiting to me, do I get mad? Nope, drive on.

Clans: Okay here we go. Everyone is rabbling on about how the Clans are going to be "Nerfed". Understand what PGI is doing... they are introducing the Battletech Universe to a whole new generation of players. The Clans DOMINATED the battlefield with the introduction of Level 2 rules to TT. That is why there are Level 1 rules, no Clans, 3025 era mechs only, no ER anything, no Ultra whatevers, or Streak whosits. Clan mechs will be roughly on par with IS for MWO. PGI is keeping the game open for new players. Imagine if they did keep Clans on par with TT, coming into the game after the Clan expansion as a new player. No one would be using IS mechs except new players. They would be blasted right out of the game after a few battles of <100 damage. Do I think some advantages should go to Clans? Yep, for sure. Should the IS have some advantages? Yep. But I guess we will see how that plays out.

Weapons: The big rabble right now is LRMs and AMS. I get it, LRMs hurt. Lots of LRMs = lots of hurt. Guess what, don't stand someplace where lots of LRMs can find you, use that thing holding your hat up. Open maps have few places to use as cover, but newsflash... they are not flat... use terrain, use ECM, use............ wait for it............... t-a-c-t-i-c-s............... t-e-a-m-w-o-r-k........ say it with me......... tactics........ oooooooooooooh............... teamwork............ ahhhhhh. These concepts may be unfamiliar to some but there are some out there that have wikipedia'd them before. AMS, should every mech have it, eh, I can think of better ways to spend 1.5 tons but hey why not. Should LRMs be "buffed" so that AMS can shoot less of them down only to have AMS "buffed" to shoot more down? Nope. Weapons will always be a point of contention and Min/Maxers will almost always go with the weapons that have the best DPS/accuracy. Am I going to complain after each weapon is tweaked, "Nerfed", "buffed", or whatever other buzzword is floating around at the time? Nope, I'm going to keep playing. I enjoy making tweaks to my mechs, I like have DHS on my almost stock HBK-4G. I enjoy my CPLT-A1 with two LRMs. Do I need to "boat" to have fun? Nope. "Poptarting"? Deal with it. Do I get frustrated with those guys? Sometimes, but I get over it. Do I rabble on after get ripped apart by LRM indirect fire? Nope, I look for the guy that had me spotted for the fire support guys.

Heat: Ghost Heat, yep going there too. I know it sucks but it is a way to simulate the heat model from TT. Remember though, TT is played in turns. Turns allow for heatsinks to dissipate heat. According to TT, a majority of weapons can fire 1 time per turn. So we can either have all weapons cycle the same speed, no more rapid fire AC2's or holding the trigger down for MG's, they fire once and spend 10 seconds reloading, or some sort of "Ghost" Heat type scale. I know people are all up in arms about it and a few have even designed other scales but hey, this is PGI's baby, go play MW2 in your heat-neutral Timberwolf. I think the system could be tweaked but think about this, I would say that 70+% of all Level 1 (3025) mechs would become heat-neutral with DHS added that means that after that first 1.5 Mil C-bills heat would no longer be a factor and Alphas would be the only fire mode.

"PUGs": Simple... people are going to solo drop, quit whining about how they suck and how they do not contribute, put your adult underpants on and drive on, even better, send them a friend request, get them on chat and help them out after the game.

So there, rant over. Bottom line, if you think you can help PGI out, offer them something constructive, they are only helping the franchise. Negativity/flaming/unsporting play that is where the imbalance is but that will never end as long as there is a single exploit left to game the system.

[Joseph Mallan]

You got a good perspective, I will disagree with you on Ghost heat though. We have 2.5-3.0 times rate of fire and and 10 second for heat dissipation. I built a Thug out of Pretty Baby... It over heated. The Original Thug DOESN'T overheat.

Thats just about my only real complaint about MW:O Mechanically.

[Danghen Woolf]

Thanks. I really think that for what PGI and the Dev team have to work with they have done a pretty good job. Battletech fans are some of the most rabid fanatics I know, I am one of them. The conversion from a turn-based, bell-curve-based game to FPS is tough in and of itself, the rules just don't translate well. Ghost heat sucks but it makes it so that no matter what you have to manage heat so that there is no one running around with a heat-neutral mech.

[Daekar]

Part of me yearns for the days in closed beta before DHS had been added. You know why? Lights carried small lasers and light pilots had to get close to do damage - and they could get knocked down!! The massive laserboat Stalkers and Battlemasters couldn't have existed. There was direct tonnage matching. DPS output was lower, so people lived longer.

I never thought I'd say this, but there is a LOT to be said for the 3025 era stuff they're using for Mechwarrior Tactics. There is a beauty in simplicity. I pity the poor guys at PGI that have to balance all this stuff. It's easy to complain, but they are actually doing really well.

[General Taskeen]

For being a TT purist you are forgetting some things. I get where you are coming from, but there are still inconsistencies in the design.

One, PGI has implemented "TT" in MWO when they feel like it, picking out parts and making up parts somewhere else (IE ECM) which is a detrimental to cohesive balance/vision. Instead of taking a look at what worked and didn't in previous MW games, they put things in the game that make little sense in real-time like a PPC doing no damage in min-range (but yet put no programming in the game for an interpretation of a "Field Inhibitor"), same with LRMs. We aren't moving on hexes here. Or an ECM in MWO that somehow blocks a missile from firing in LOS, when in "TT" an LRM could definitely fire at an ECM Mech if both Mechs had direct line of sight of one another. Or a big weapon like a Gauss or AC/20 doing its actual TT damage in a real-time game with pin-point aim, not random chance rolling dice, when damage was essentially over a duration.

On the Clans, of course people would keep using IS Mechs... what player wouldn't want the possibility to run circles at 150-170 km/h in an IS Light Mech around a Clan Light that can only go 97.2 km/h shooting as many auto-aim streaks as humanely possible? Because that's exactly what the "clan design" plans entails. This goes back to what I am talking about cohesion - IS Mechs currently resemble even more modularity than the peace faring Clans who can't understand how the highly technological IS create uber FrankenMechs (which isn't canon). MW is about customization (which creates its issues of "min/max"), but also previous games allowed choices where people could allow or disallow customization. For instance, where is a pure mode to pit "stocks" against each other? There is none, it is up to the players to do so.

Ok, now the heat system. The mention of heat neutrality is confusing, since by definition one can look at a SPR-5V with 10SHS and 2ML, completely heat efficient especially if not over doing it on jumpjets. Obviously not a scary loadout, death by 2 Medium Laser cuts, very scary! MWO's problem is a heat scale that fluctuates, no Mech is the same, since heatsinks in this MW game raise the threshold (doubled with "Elite") more so than any previous MW game, which is a root of the design problem... not Ghost Heat. Ghost Heat is a literal bandaid for the currently programmed "heat system" to abuse the fact that with enough DHS you can raise your threshold to enormously arcade numbers allowing for high-alpha repeated ad-nauseam
gameplay. One of the major things previous games got right was fixing the heat threshold for all Mechs and no amount of heatsinks could raise it.

Edited by General Taskeen, 28 March 2014 - 12:04 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

In ANY game where players can customize anything you are going to get them.

Thats not true. Min/maxers can only exist if a game is unbalanced. If a game is perfectly balance there is absolutely nothing to min/max because no combination of weapons will give you an advantage.

[CeeKay Boques]

General Taskeen, on 28 March 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

; MWO's problem is a heat scale that fluctuates, no Mech is the same, since heatsinks in this MW game raise the threshold (doubled with &quot;Elite&quot;) more so than any previous MW game, which is a root of the design problem... not Ghost Heat. Ghost Heat is a literal bandaid for the currently programmed &quot;heat system&quot; to abuse the fact that with enough DHS you can raise your threshold to enormously arcade numbers allowing for high-alpha repeated ad-nauseam
gameplay. One of the major things previous games got right was fixing the heat threshold for all Mechs and no amount of heatsinks could raise it.

If we're going to bring in other MechWarriors, this one is more true to life.

In MechWariror 4, I could rock 3 LRM 20s and 4 ERLarge on MadCat, Alpha strike and be ok. Twice even. I couldn't even FIT that in MWO. In MW3, my 12 medium Laser Nova could eat things in 2 shots, and not Overheat. In TT, I would miss with 1/2 of those. There's more to it than balancing TT heat vs Time to Fire etc... ghost heat might be a poor answer, but its better than 4000 armor mechs and 100 point damages.

Don't forget that while heat was static, the amount of things that were out of canon/TT in the OTHER direction were also ridiculous.

Khobai, on 28 March 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

Thats not true. Min/maxers can only exist if a game is unbalanced. If a game is perfectly balance there is absolutely nothing to min/max because no combination of weapons will give you an advantage.

MechWarrior is Unique when it comes to balance. Level "Balancing" between a medium laser and an AC 5 happens in weight and heat, which in turn effects available engine size and other factors. Not damage and mana vs "Resource points" vs Utility like other games.

Straight up, when people want balance in this game I don't get it. The only balance is that no weapons should be super weapons. But a Gauss vs 4 Medium lasers are balanced in the right hands, on the right chassis, at the right speed, in the right Arm slot vs Torso slot. A lot more to balance than "these weapon both good. That good."

Edited by Technoviking, 28 March 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[Asakara]

In my opinion MWO is closer to Solaris VII rules than "normal" TT rules in regards to how often weapons can fire and heat dissipation.


.

[Aresye]

I've been playing since MW2 first came out, and I disagree with pretty much everything you said, especially regarding missile boats and, "tactics."

I know how to dodge missiles. Been doing it since MW2. Doesn't mean there aren't issues with bad map geometry, missile arcing, and the fact that missiles can still hit you behind what any normal person would consider, "suitable cover." If the AC-20 was changed to do 100 damage, does me staying out of their maximum range void the fact that the weapon's characteristics need changing?

True, the most visible balance issues are usually intentional by the players, however the min/max players, meta crowd, etc. are symptoms as a result of the game's true balance issues.

Edited by Aresye, 28 March 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[Danghen Woolf]

Thanks for your input guys. I am a TT purist in the sense that I see Battletech and MechWarrior as two different and unique parts of the same franchise. I will never play Battletech from the cockpit, that is not how it is designed. MechWarrior is however a Battletech simulator. I appreciate the work that all of the Dev teams have put in since Crescent Hawks Revenge but none of them are Battletech.

As far a heat neutrality, there are many L1 mechs in TT that can do everything and generate 0 heat, the SDR is one. Having the capability to make any mech heat neutral can create issues where eventually heat is completely taken out of the equation fo som players. A lance of SDRs running around chain-firing MedLas with 0 heat can quickly overpower any mech that has to monitor a heat scale. I did not say that the current heat system is the best, it can be improved.

As far as weapon balance, look at TT, the MedLas is the most balanced weapon in the game insofar as Rng/Dmg/Heat/Crits/Weight and ammo independent. The weapons of Battletech are not balanced, they are role based: Light AC2, AC5, PPCs, LgLas = long range direct fire; LRMs = long range indirect/splash; AC10, MedLas = brawling/med range direct fire; AC20, SMLas, = short range direct fire; SRMs = short range splash; MG, flamer = anti infantry. Balance of these weapons was determined by role. Trying to round the corners of each weapon to balance them removes them from their role. I agree that there are ways to improve them but it ha to be done carefully. Whining because LRMs get a buff is not providing feedback it sounds more like being butthurt. If you feel a weapon is unbalanced, identify the problem, come up with a solution, and post it in a way that does not sound like "Rabble, rabble, I lost a match because weapon X is too powerful,rabble, rabble." Even a balanced system has Min/Maxers, it happens, a Min/Maxer is someone who runs the numbers to maximize to the point where it becomes meta-building, I believe the most common right now is the PPC/UAC5 but could be wrong. I play almost stock set-ups, I enjoy the challenge.

[KharnZor]

Khobai, on 28 March 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

Thats not true. Min/maxers can only exist if a game is unbalanced. If a game is perfectly balance there is absolutely nothing to min/max because no combination of weapons will give you an advantage.

Can you give an example of a perfectly balanced game? Because i cant think of a single one in recent memory.

[Mr Killdozer]

Logged in just to say I completely agree with you Woolf. I have the same mindset about the game and enjoy it immensely. See you on the battlefield.

[Lightfoot]

Ghost Heat plus DHS 1.4 is too much heat nerfing. Dump either one. Then you would have heat that pilots could manage instead of just shutting down and exploding like you do with both nerfs, unless you are running ballistics in which case Ghost Heat and DHS 1.4 have zero effect on your mech. Zero.

The consequence of DHS 1.4 and Ghost Heat is that iconic, canon, Battletech stock energy mechs like the AWS-9M do not function in MWO. On some moderately hot maps the AWS-9M explodes on the third salvo of it's three ERPPC's. That's not supporting Battletech at all in my book. Battletech is balanced so that all these diverse Mechs are on roughly equal footing and that allows players to be the agent of any success that the Mechs obtain on the field of play. Ghost Heat plus DHS 1.4 blocks this from happening and enforces gameplay that only non-energy mechs have a chance of winning.

When they added Ghost Heat it stopped me from buying anymore mechs because most of them don't work or don't do anything different from the Mechs I already own, many of which no longer work either. Prior to that I bought most new mechs that came out. I have 51 mechs, but only one Firestarter since Ghost Heat.

Edited by Lightfoot, 28 March 2014 - 02:03 PM.

[Danghen Woolf]

Since my "Quote" isn't working today.

Lightfoot, thank you for your thoughts.
I see what you mean but the TT stock AWS-9M has 20 DHS for an effective 40 heat dissipation. It has 3 ERPPCs, 2 SSRM2s, a MedPulsLas and a SmPulsLas for a total weapon heat output of 55 heat w/o movement for all weapons, 45 of which from ERPPCs. That would mean that without moving the pilot could fire 3 ERPPC alphas before the first risk of shutdown, that is a lot of damage downrange before any real negative effects are felt unless they implement the movement or targeting penalties of heat. I agree that the MWO heat model is crippling to many mechs that rely on energy weapons but since the model is a blanket effect even normally heat efficient ballistic weapons have heat curves intended to prevent 100s of points of damage downrange before heat is a factor. I never said the system was perfect, nor that it is a direct scale up from TT.

[Tangelis]

KharnZor, on 28 March 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

Can you give an example of a perfectly balanced game? Because i cant think of a single one in recent memory.

Chess. What matters is the player.

[KharnZor]

Tangelis, on 28 March 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

Chess. What matters is the player.

Well yea but i was talking about video games.

[Malleus011]

I agree with you about the artistic license, for the most part. I disagree with everything else in the OP.

I've played Battletech since the original boxed set. This isn't Battletech and doesn't feel like Battletech/Mechwarrior. If you start playing MWO having only played TT, you'll get murdered by the heat system and ghost heat, and that's before the metawarriors see you and shred you with massed autocannons.

The fact that MWO's combat system makes stock designs deathtraps is a clear indication that they've failed to create a Mechwarrior simulator that works anything like the fan base expects. Yes, I understand that a first-person shooter will require changes from pure TT rules, but other titles have managed to stay far closer to the source material and expected function that the IP's fan base expects. There's no reason to use the Mechwarrior IP if you aren't going to appeal to that fan base. PGI's failures in this regard explain a lot of the cynicism and criticism that is so prevalent here on their own forums. They haven't met the expectations of the Mechwarrior fan base, and seem to have no plans to try to do so in the future.

Ghost heat is a lazy band-aid solution that is a consequence of the developer's decision to allow every player the ability to completely customize every 'mech. They're min-maxing because they're allowed to min-max to the limit (except with Clans apparently). Dozens of better ideas have been suggested and ignored.

Right now, I would grade MWO as an 'F' as a Battletech/Mechwarrior universe title. This simply isn't Battletech, and the developer is hell-bent on diverging further from the source material and desires of the fan base.

In all fairness, I believe the issue is that the developer is simply overcommitted to the project they've suggested they intend to deliver, and lack the ability to meet audience expectations on multiple levels. They want to build their own game, which isn't necessarily Battletech, and they intend to implement their 'vision' despite the audience expectations for the IP.

Your mileage may vary. For my part, I've cut off all spending on this title in a futile attempt to encourage the developer to improve. I suspect that, like many veteran BT players before me, I'll eventually give up on the title due to lack of progress, and go play something else.

And that's not even getting into Community Warfare - which older, simpler titles managed quite well - and the Clans, which seem well on their way to being an abomination utterly unlike their Battletech forefathers.

I appreciate the respectful way you've stated your opinion and how you're handling responses. That's rare on these boards. Kudos.

[Khobai]

Quote

Level "Balancing" between a medium laser and an AC 5 happens in weight and heat, which in turn effects available engine size and other factors. Not damage and mana vs "Resource points" vs Utility like other games.

Yeah but AC5s and medium lasers werent balanced in tabletop either. AC5s were one of the worst weapons. And medium lasers were one of the best weapons. In MWO its nearly the opposite, AC5s are one of the best weapons, and medium lasers are purely mediocre. But the two are still not balanced.

Weapons arnt even close to being balanced in MWO. Thats why everyone runs autocannons, PPCs, and streaks almost exclusively. Even the LRMs which were popularized by the recent patch are dying out as everyone goes back to meta builds.

Quote

The fact that MWO's combat system makes stock designs deathtraps is a clear indication that they've failed to create a Mechwarrior simulator that works anything like the fan base expects

Agreed. The entire game shouldve been designed around stock mechs like MWLL. Allowing custom mechs was a huge mistake. Allowing custom mechs without balanced weapons was an even worse mistake yet.

Edited by Khobai, 28 March 2014 - 04:16 PM.

[Davers]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 March 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

You got a good perspective, I will disagree with you on Ghost heat though. We have 2.5-3.0 times rate of fire and and 10 second for heat dissipation. I built a Thug out of Pretty Baby... It over heated. The Original Thug DOESN'T overheat.

Thats just about my only real complaint about MW:O Mechanically.

If you only fired your weapons every 10 seconds you wouldn't overheat in your Thug.

[DocBach]

Khobai, on 28 March 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Yeah but AC5s and medium lasers werent balanced in tabletop either. AC5s were one of the worst weapons. And medium lasers were one of the best weapons. In MWO its nearly the opposite, AC5s are one of the best weapons, and medium lasers are purely mediocre. But the two are still not balanced.

They need to drop the medium laser heat back down to 3. It was an early closed beta knee jerk reaction to the fast laser swaybacks which got the double whammy with engine restrictions.