43 replies to this topic

[luigi256]

I have the other light mechs just not these two chasis. I do eventually plan on getting both to elite if not master but which should I do first? Is one completely superior to the other?

Maybe the Raven as i see a lot of these but I do like that the commando is quite small.

One other thing i noticed while at smurfy was that the ecm commando has a max 210 engine and the ecm raven has an xl 210 engine to start, perhaps get one of each to use that engine in a commando and an xl 280/whatever engine in the Raven 3L? (I already have a 280XL engine)

Any and all comments are appreciated.

Edit: Well I did get them both commando first already elited and now working on the Ravens. This post was originally started before the firestarter was announced just so everyone knows.

Of course as soon as the ember goes on sale I will get it and when the Firestarter variants get released for c-bills I will jump on those as well.

Edited by luigi256, 05 February 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[TercieI]

I have and love both. It's a question of variants. You have other lights, so you've likely got three through elite? I ask because of some very good and some very bad variants of each.

The Commandos to have are the 2D (3 streaks, ECM, SL/ML/TAG, XL195 or XL200 depending) and the Knell (XL240, 4ML, stuff full of DHS) IMO. The 1B is inferior to the Knell (loses 1E for a lousy missile point (torso 2-tube) and the 1D&3A are both "meh" due to being too mixed in terms of loadout (2M/2E).

The Ravens...The 3L is excellent (my sig). Run with 2ERLL or 3M(P)L and two streaks. It really needs that XL295, though. However, the 2X and 4X are not good. The 2X is a non-jumping, slower JR7-K ans the 4X is kindof a weird mix of hard points. Lots if options, none very good. And both top out at around 140, the slowest of any lights. It is truly worth considering just getting them through basic for the 3L. I mastered both and did well enough in them, but don't touch them now.

Edited by Terciel1976, 22 January 2014 - 09:43 PM.

[luigi256]

Terciel1976, on 22 January 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

I have and love both. It's a question of variants. You have other lights, so you've likely got three through elite? I ask because of some very good and some very bad variants of each.

Yup mastered at least one of each of my light chasis if not more (Spider5D, Jenner D/F, Locust 3M/3S). The variants I did not master I don't use at all because they are truly just worse. I can see myself using and keeping two of each variant for both the commando and raven, the variants are different enough that I would keep them and use them. Joke build for the Raven 4x and a standard engine build for the commando 1b (or deaths knell but I will not get that don't want to spend any more money for a while.)

Edit: And of course the ecm variants of both mechs would be used and kept 100%.

Edit2: Not that any mech variant is unplayable I just hate machine guns so I don't use the 1V locust or 5k spider. It messes with my vision a bit for some reason when firing them and I can't hit anything, especially in multiples.

Edited by luigi256, 22 January 2014 - 10:34 PM.

[Void Angel]

Once you've fully unlocked the Basics on three variants of a chassis, the requirement for three full Elite unlocks to get to Master switches to "in the same weight class." So, if you didn't know, that means you only have to get basics on the sub-optimal variants. You may well know this, but sometimes people don't. =) Also be sure to buy Artemis for any Streak-armed 'mechs, since it affects lock-on times (this will eventually be fixed, I'm sure, but right now, abuse it - you can be certain the other guy is.)

As for which chassis to get first - it depends on what you're looking for. The Raven spreads damage better than anything in its weight class but a Spider - and it carries more firepower than a Commando. Commandos, on the other hand are far more maneuverable than anything but a Locust. This is because they share the Tiny movement archetype - the only two chassis in the game thus far who have it. So while Ravens can effectively carry much heavier arms, a Commando can turn on a dime and still hit fairly hard with light-weight weapons.

Similarly, a Raven has birdy-wings rather than arms, making it much more difficult to hold locks on evasive targets, or to focus your damage while presenting a high-deflection shot to your victim - ecactly like the Jenner you've already learned. Conversely, while the Commando carries fewer/smaller guns, it has true arms like your Spider, and can hold locks and pinpoint damage more effectively while making itself a difficult target.

Finally, while the Commando's small size makes it practically impossible to specifically target a weak torso/arm, the Raven has very good damage spreading on its hitboxes - and substantially more durability. This means that while the Commando will be harder to hit, a Raven will stand up better to other lights and streak boats, as well as being more survivable against large-bore autocannons and PPCs.

So it comes down to what you want to buy first: a fast, very nimble assassin, scout that specializes in zipping around enemies to disrupt them with hit-and-run attacks, or do you want a more robust chassis that can effectively carry heavy energy weapons as well as light-hunting armaments - but with less maneuverability and speed?

Do you want the Commando, or the Raven?

Edited by Void Angel, 22 January 2014 - 10:47 PM.

[luxebo]

While I haven't tried Commandos, I know that Death's Knell, 3A, and 2D are the best options (with 1B still usable and 1D being a terrible 3A).

Best Raven is 3L for sure (I run 2xmed laser, 2xssrms, 1xtag). 2X and 4X I run 2X as a ER Large Laser sniper and 4X as a jumping hunchie because I went cheap and sticked with XL 210. XL 295 will also be needed for BJ-1X later.

[AaronWolf]

I'm biased, so I am trying really hard not to point you only towards the Raven. And as such, will put it in a very simple format.


The Raven is equivalent to a small gunboat. Can pack on some weapons, has the potential for great speed, and has some of the best defensive values for a light.

The Commando is like a fighter plane. Carries a good chunk of weapons. Is really good for fighting other mechs of its weight class. And can zip-zoom-zap around the field. Though they rely on their speed and small target profile over having more armor.

[stjobe]

I'm also very biased (I have mastered all five Commando variants and don't own a single Raven), but if I take a step back it comes down to variants.

The Good: COM-2D, COM-TDK, RVN-3L
The Bad: COM-1B, COM-1D, COM-3A
The Ugly: RVN-2X, RVN-4X

Would you be willing to take some Bad with your Good (and really, those COM variants aren't truly bad, just not as good as the Good ones), or are you prepared to suffer through some Ugly?

[Cest7]

I bought the commandos...

Kinda wish I bought the ravens.

[1453 R]

Commandos - and Locusts - take a lot of practice, a dose of luck, and a special kind of nutball to really get use out of. You have to be ruthless in the Mechlab, and you have to be more effective than anyone else with what you've got because everyone else has so much more of it than you do.

That said, as Void pointed out, Commandos and Locusts can climb damn near anything to get angles nobody else can find, they're both crazy agile, and both are blast to play if not actually all that good I've seen some really awesome 2D pilots stymie an entire team in confusion and nonsensery with that ECM, and of course a 2D Trollmando is one of the last things you want to see coming at you when you're running as light yourself.

The Raven will generally get better games, but the Commando - and the Locust - both make for really great guilty pleasures.

[TercieI]

stjobe, on 25 January 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

I'm also very biased (I have mastered all five Commando variants and don't own a single Raven), but if I take a step back it comes down to variants.

The Good: COM-2D, COM-TDK, RVN-3L
The Bad: COM-1B, COM-1D, COM-3A
The Ugly: RVN-2X, RVN-4X

Would you be willing to take some Bad with your Good (and really, those COM variants aren't truly bad, just not as good as the Good ones), or are you prepared to suffer through some Ugly?

IMO, the gap between your bad and ugly really narrowed with the engine cap upgrades. Where it was basically pure win for the Ravens, it's harder to use effectively on the 'Mandos since you'll be trying to get heavy, heavy missiles into limited tonnage if you've stuffed the max engine in. Frankly, I think it's style and preference once you get off the (unarguable) good part of your list. If I had to take any of the others, I'd go for the RVN-2X. It just happens to suit me well, even though most players prefer the -4X.

The major remaining downside of the "other" Ravens is that they take a just awful engine. The XL275 weighs the same as the XL280 and they're the only chassis that maxes at 275 that isn't just nuts to put an XL in (HBK and CN9 being the others), so this is the only place you'll really use that stupid engine*. "Happily" if you have bought a SHD-5M, GRF-3M, WVR-7K or Heavy Metal, you'll already have it.

But any way you slice it, two keeper COMs and just one keeper RVN.

*Yes, I'm bitter about this engine. I've sold three of the bloody things without a moment's regret. The one in the Heavy Metal just blows my mind, the others at least have TT rules to explain their presence

[stjobe]

Terciel1976, on 25 January 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

IMO, the gap between your bad and ugly really narrowed with the engine cap upgrades. Where it was basically pure win for the Ravens, it's harder to use effectively on the 'Mandos since you'll be trying to get heavy, heavy missiles into limited tonnage if you've stuffed the max engine in. Frankly, I think it's style and preference once you get off the (unarguable) good part of your list. If I had to take any of the others, I'd go for the RVN-2X. It just happens to suit me well, even though most players prefer the -4X.

Remember, the 'mandos got an engine upgrade too, and are now the fastest 'mechs in the game at 171.1 kph (except the 2D). So you won't have to "stuff the max engine in" to be faster than a max engine Raven - with a XL 220 you're already faster than any Raven will ever be, and that engine is 2 tons lighter than the XL 240.

Also, the one 'mando that needs to stuff many "heavy, heavy missiles" is the 2D - the 1D and 3A have two missile hardpoints, the 1B only one.

And finally, as someone mentioned, the movement archetype is "tiny" for the 'mando but "small" for the birdie.

Either way, for me the choice is crystal clear: If I had to do it over, I'd gladly play any three Commandos to master, but I'd be hesitant to try to master the RVN-2X and 4X (my experiences with the SDR-5V and 5K and the LCTs are still fresh in my mind...)

[TercieI]

stjobe, on 25 January 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

Remember, the 'mandos got an engine upgrade too, and are now the fastest 'mechs in the game at 171.1 kph (except the 2D). So you won't have to "stuff the max engine in" to be faster than a max engine Raven - with a XL 220 you're already faster than any Raven will ever be, and that engine is 2 tons lighter than the XL 240.

Also, the one 'mando that needs to stuff many "heavy, heavy missiles" is the 2D - the 1D and 3A have two missile hardpoints, the 1B only one.

And finally, as someone mentioned, the movement archetype is "tiny" for the 'mando but "small" for the birdie.

Either way, for me the choice is crystal clear: If I had to do it over, I'd gladly play any three Commandos to master, but I'd be hesitant to try to master the RVN-2X and 4X (my experiences with the SDR-5V and 5K and the LCTs are still fresh in my mind...)

Fair point about the XL220. A buddy of mine is leveling them now and we built one of his with an XL235 (from Blackjacks). Oh, hm, messing in Smurfy, why would you use the XL220? The XL225 is faster and exactly one ton more, with an additional heat sink inside to save space. Seems like a straight upgrade.

I still think it's a significant weight issue on the 1D/3A. Even with two missile points, it's 5.5 tons if you want streaks (no BAP=non-starter for me and I'm not fan of dumb fire SRMs right now). And that's with one ton of ammo. A lot of weight for 250 damage max.

Great point about movement archetype. I <3 Commando movement. SOOOOOO smooth and easy.

(Really an aside and woolgathering from here)

I got the 2X/4X through basics back in XL245 days but mastered them after the engine cap bump. They were ok. 140 is "fast enough" where 115 wasn't, but I do think it's largely preference. I mastered my 'Mandos back pre-cap and at this point really only want to drive the ones I own (2D and Knell). In fact, I plan on buying a third, but it's going to be a second 2D, because I want a SHS version and a DHS version.

I hear you on SDRs and LCTs, though. I limped the "other" Spiders through basic with no upgrades and sold them and have no regrets about not mastering. LCTs I've only gotten through basic, but I've messed with them a bit lately (after massive PC upgrade) and they're kinda fun, in a paranoid high-wire sort of way now.

Always fun to go over this stuff with you, stjobe, you make me think.

Edited by Terciel1976, 25 January 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[TygerLily]

I'd say get the Ravens now and once weight limiting is instituted go ahead and do Commandos...

[stjobe]

Terciel1976, on 25 January 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

why would you use the XL220? The XL225 is faster and exactly one ton more, with an additional heat sink inside to save space. Seems like a straight upgrade.

Ah, busted. I generally either go with a XL170, a XL195, or straight up to XL240. You're quite correct that the XL225 is a straight upgrade on the XL220, good catch.

Terciel1976, on 25 January 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I still think it's a significant weight issue on the 1D/3A. Even with two missile points, it's 5.5 tons if you want streaks (no BAP=non-starter for me and I'm not fan of dumb fire SRMs right now). And that's with one ton of ammo. A lot of weight for 250 damage max.

I dunno... I run this 1D and this 3A; as you can see, the 3A drops both speed and missiles for a 900m dual-LL punch (it's a very nice build and my current favourite). The 1D does have dual SRM-4s, but only one ton of ammo; so it's used for those "die now, die!" situations. I guess you could swap the MPLs for MLs and get another ton of ammo in there.

You may also notice neither of them run a max engine; I've found that with experience you get less reliant on absolute speed, and these two move quite fast enough for me (although my TDK is a speed demon, I sometimes feel it's a bit overkill to go that fast).

Terciel1976, on 25 January 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Always fun to go over this stuff with you, stjobe, you make me think.

Likewise

[TercieI]

I don't object to your 3A, I'd just do it as a Knell variant and make the extra c-bills. Only it wouldn't work on my Knell, since I paid for FF to get the extra two armor points back on the head. <rolls eyes at himself...>

The 1D...not my style, but I can see how it could work. You can also use that zombie arm, head and STs to shave an armor ton for a second ton of ammo if you're gutsy. That's actually one reason I don't think that the 1D is as much worse than the 3A as many folks do. On a 25 ton mech, 1/2 ton because you can zombie an arm is not nothing.

[Void Angel]

My only thoughts on engine speeds for super-light 'mechs is that while you do lose a significant proportion of your weight for going up to max, the ability to get away from things faster, and present a faster target, might outweigh the extra weapon space.

On the other hand, my Streak Locust had to go down to a 170XL to fit in the streaks, and it's worth it to see Jenners run from a Locust.

[TercieI]

Void Angel, on 25 January 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

On the other hand, my Streak Locust had to go down to a 170XL to fit in the streaks, and it's worth it to see Jenners run from a Locust.

How did you build that? Looks like it would cost FF because of the add'l DHS space.

Edited by Terciel1976, 25 January 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[Void Angel]

Double Heat sinks? Whatever do you mean?

This is the guy here.

Basically, it's a glass cannon Locust - because really, there's no way to avoid that. Anyone who hit me with a big gun was likely to cripple or kill me anyway, so I said, "Screw it! All I really need is enough armor to avoid panicked Jenner's returning laser fire through my screen shake."

It tends to run out of ammo 3-4 hundred damage into the match, because of AMS, hit detection, outrun streaks, etc. But I had a Shadowhawk pilot tell me I was the first time he'd ever felt threatened by a Locust.

PS: Chain fire for less lost damage and more ineffective return fire - I just use my alpha strike weapon group to take passing shots.

[stjobe]

Terciel1976, on 25 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

How did you build that? Looks like it would cost FF because of the add'l DHS space.

You build it with 3 SSRM-2. That's the only way, and it doesn't matter if you go with FF+SHS or no FF but DHS (although I'd say that DHS without FF is the way I'd choose).

Or, you go with no BAP (which I wouldn't do).

Personally, I run mine with 4xSRM-2 and a XL190.

Edit: Ah, as I thought. No BAP. What do you do when you're up against an ECM 'mech?

Edited by stjobe, 25 January 2014 - 12:43 PM.

[TercieI]

Void Angel, on 25 January 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Double Heat sinks? Whatever do you mean?

This is the guy here.

Basically, it's a glass cannon Locust - because really, there's no way to avoid that. Anyone who hit me with a big gun was likely to cripple or kill me anyway, so I said, "Screw it! All I really need is enough armor to avoid panicked Jenner's returning laser fire through my screen shake."

It tends to run out of ammo 3-4 hundred damage into the match, because of AMS, hit detection, outrun streaks, etc. But I had a Shadowhawk pilot tell me I was the first time he'd ever felt threatened by a Locust.

PS: Chain fire for less lost damage and more ineffective return fire - I just use my alpha strike weapon group to take passing shots.

Boy, I feel dumb. I actually run a SHS COM-2D and LCT-1V and I just didn't think of it.

Ever drop one launcher for a BAP? I hate being jammed... Mine looks like this right now, but I'm not at all convinced I'll keep it this way: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4c6007fd867ac3a

Frankly, I think the LCT-3S is the worst mech I own.

stjobe, on 25 January 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Personally, I run mine with 4xSRM-2 and a XL190.

I need to re-try this on the new machine.