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K/d Or No K/d, That Is The Question....


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#21 WintermuteOmega

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 02:58 AM

Even though most things has been pointed out, here are my 2 Cent.
Before the stat-wipe, my KD was ABYSSMAL (under 1.0). The reason why was:
  • I was a really bad Player in the beginning
  • I was earning much XP for my small Mechs, mostly resulting in 1 Death and 0 Kills, doing that some x-ty times didn't earn me many good stats
  • After playing, what, 2000 matches or more, almost nothing ever changed in my KD-Ratio
While i know, KD means mostly nothing i was playing meds and heavys, and i always felt i wasn't contrbuting much. So i tried at least hurt 2 or 3Mechs badly or take at lest one out, so i wouldn't be a burden for the Team and took a least my weight in Enemys out of the equation.
And since Win/lose Ratio is based mostly on the Team-Play, sometimes you can play as good as it gets, when teenmy has the upper Hand, you still will lose this fight. So W/L doesn't really say how good you are as a Player, leaving the KD the stat, that is mostly based on your skill.
Having said that, it a good KD Ratio doesn't say you are good player when wating the whole match and then enter 4 minutes before the end with a 99% mech and stealing all the kills, as well as a bad KD says you are a bad Player when you ofer CAP/ECM/TAG/NARC/INFO or more or less anything that is not Kill-Based.

#22 ThatBum42

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 03:01 AM

Indeed, the stats don't really mean much in a competitive sense, but it does show you your relative personal performance between your different mechs. Even win/loss, the most relevant one (ultimately being the objective of every match and all, regardless of means), still doesn't paint the entire picture because of the game being a team effort. Everyone knows what getting stomped/stomping is like, it's luck of the draw.

It would be nice if average damage per match or per mech was tracked as well, along with average components destroyed per match, etc. Again, they also could have some ambiguity as taken individually, but used in conjunction with each other, it would help.

Edited by ThatBum42, 21 March 2014 - 03:03 AM.


#23 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 03:07 AM

K/D Is your individual performance in game. To me a more important stat is my Assists. Teamwork beats individual performance everyday.

There is no Kill-Stealing, just confirmation.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 March 2014 - 03:08 AM.


#24 Appogee

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 03:29 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 21 March 2014 - 03:07 AM, said:

To me a more important stat is my Assists.
My only concern about Assists is that I've seen some people abuse that.

They try to farm CBills and XP by running around doing a smidgen of damage to every single enemy Mech, before engaging properly in the battle. That way they get 12 Assists when their team wins, and all the CBills and XP that go with it.

However, what else they've done is spend the first 3rd of the match not engaging effectively. When a team has one whole Mech (or several) running around spamming minimal damage on every target, instead of engaging fully, they can actually cost the team the victory.

Note: I know that you do not do this, nor are you advocating it. I am just taking your comment as the opportunity to make a related comment on a selfish behavior I have observed from others at times.

Edited by Appogee, 21 March 2014 - 03:30 AM.


#25 Appogee

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 03:33 AM

View PostThatBum42, on 21 March 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

It would be nice if average damage per match or per mech was tracked as well,
I created an Excel spreadsheet to analyse mine. I can copy and paste the Mech stats into it, and it will show me the average damage per match per Mech.

PGI could calculate and display this information very easily on the Mech stats screen if they wanted too. It's a simple calculation of the existing total Mech damage divided by the total number of matches played in that Mech ... both datapoints are already captured and displayed separately.

#26 Dunning Kruger Effect

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:10 AM

KDR is NOT the only determiner of pilot skill. Nor is it terribly accurate. There are so many ways to distort KDR

However to claim KDR has no meaning at all is even more stupid.

#1. The way to "win" a game (even conquest, most times) is for your team to kill all the enemy mechs, whilst not losing all the mechs of your own team. Therefore kills AND deaths have meaning.

#2. Thus:
Killing = Good.
Dying = Bad.

#3.
A "high" KDR of say 2:1 shows, factually, you kill twice as often than you die. This is good for your team.
A "low" KDR of say 1:2 shows, factually, you die twice as often as you kill. This is bad for your team.

#4. We can see that killing enemy mechs, whilst not dying yourself, is directly linked to victory.

A team of all KDR 2:1+ players will not always beat a team of all 1:2 KDR players. But if you had to bet $100, which way would you go?

Quote

Let's be a little blunt here. K/D ratio is for kids. If your mech has a support role, then you need to support not kill as much, if your mech has an ECM role then you don't need to kill as much, if you're a scout you don't need to kill as much, if you are NARCing you don't kill you play stealthy, if you soak damage you don't need to kill as much.


I'd argue that a player performing "support" roles has the same onus on him to kill enemy mechs whilst preserving his own mech that everyone else does. Using an ECM mech does not switch off your weapons nor render you immune to all enemy fire. If your mech has high armour it does not mean you should not actively attempt to stay alive or shoot back.*
There is nothing stopping a support player from maintaining a decent KDR.
*Unless, of course, you are performing the vital job of NARCing. :ph34r:

Players with high KDR may use a "cheese" or "meta" build. But those same builds are available to everyone. So anyone choosing to use a sub-optimal mech/build has only themselves to blame.

Players with a high KDR may have this inflated artificially by teamwork or "evil premades." Again, this is also available to everyone. Again, you could say anyone NOT part of an organised team have only themselves to blame.

So whilst high KDR can be distorted, the same tools are there for everyone.

Players with a low KDR (I'm going to say 0.5/1:2 or less, i.e. twice as low as a 1:1 "average") over 100-1000s of games have a demonstrated inability to either (a) inflict finishing blows or (:) survive the game, or both. Both actions are tangibly vital to victory to their side.

(Note: I have a sub 1:1 kdr myself, and I DO NOT believe KDR is the be-all and end-all. I hope KDR never becomes a big part of MW:O as it is in other games, where a "high KDR" allows you to look down on/make personal attacks on those with lower KDRs. EVERYONE is useful to their side (unless they are AFK w**kers.) However the claims KDR is meaningless annoys me with the inherent lack of logic)

#27 Daggett

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:20 AM

K/D is a suitable overall performance indicator but not very accurate.

That's because the mech and it's loadout has a high impact on this.
For example weapons that do high damage per ton but spread it all over the target like all sorts of missiles, LBX-ACs, Lasers,ect. will not bring as much kills as pin-point weapons do.

Another factor is weapon recycle speed. Using faster weapons (e.g. AC2, multiple MGs, UAC5, or chainfired stuff) give a higher chance to 'steal' the kill when multiple teammates are firing on your target.

Last but not least, one must look if a player specialized on some specific builds or if he tries out new builds more than perfecting his favorites. Specializing on a specific build through hundreds of games and learn all it's strenghts and weaknesses will of cause increase your K/D ratio by a big degree.

So K/D is not everything, measuring a player alone by this can be very misleading. However a negative K/D should be a reasonable hint that you probably need to work on your piloting and/or mech building.

The same applies to each other parameter like damage per match which is also not very accurate. A player who can use pin-point-weapons well does not need to deal 500+ dmg to heavily influence the game. The more 'spready' your weapons are, the more damage you need to deal with 'em to influence the battle towards your team.

Even my favorite Win/Loss ratio is not flawed. Premades usually achieve a higher W/L than pugs. But if you are only pugging and have a positive W/L ratio, then you can be rightfully proud to be an 'Above-average' player, because you are influencing the outcome of a match quite much. :)

#28 WintermuteOmega

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:27 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 21 March 2014 - 03:07 AM, said:

K/D Is your individual performance in game. To me a more important stat is my Assists. Teamwork beats individual performance everyday.

There is no Kill-Stealing, just confirmation.


I REALLY don't mind not getting a kill because a friendly mech killed my target, even if he just started firing on my target seconds ago. It still means he is helping me and the team by concentrating fire on one target which is ALWAYS good.

But how is wating outside combat, making your team fight effectivly 11/10/9 vs 12, and then crawling out with full health, shooting at cored Mechs that wiped our team because of a disadvantage, not stealing?!

#29 Magnakanus

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:29 AM

The only reason why I work on my k/d is because of our internal medal system. I like the shinies we get for KDR 1, 1.5, 2, and 2.5. Otherwise KDR is really unimportant and does not really reflect how useful you were in a match. Damage per match is a good indicator for combat mechs, and MXP for support mechs like spotters, etc. I had a match or two with 3 kills and under 100 damage. It just meant that my dump-truck got there just as the fight ended and I got lucky.

#30 Clownwarlord

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 04:54 AM

Out side of the meh achievements what do you get to strive for? Oh my bad, it is community warfare. But wait where is it? Oh that's right, not here!!! So after all that you can play this game for fun but if you want to take it serious even a little you care about your stats. That is just how it is. If you don't then good for you ... what are you striving for?

#31 Flyto

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 05:25 AM

K/D is nearly meaningless in this game, and some behaviours that are harmful to the game are caused by people who are desperate to keep their ratio high (e.g. hiding instead of dying and waiting for the game timer to run down, or chasing after the weaponless mech, desperate to get the kill shot, while ignoring the two other mechs that are annihilating the team).

Win/loss, averaged over a large number of games, is a far better metric.

#32 Fuggles

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 06:43 AM

Just like fantasy football, it's hard to quantify good play with stats. Your W/L ratio would be the closest indicator, but the ElO system makes that hard to quantify as well.

Oh and there is such a thing as kill stealing, been playing my banshees since the patch and they are slow, so I'm noticing people jumping over and infront of me into my line of fire to get shots in. I'm not talking open field combat, I'm talking narrow lines of fire. Had one guy get real butthurt over it yesterday when he jumped into my AC fire from my LT, I was zoomed in and had no clue he was there but he took offence and proceeded to shoot at me after the reds were dead.

#33 Dunning Kruger Effect

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 06:47 AM

Quote

Win/loss, averaged over a large number of games, is a far better metric.


Doesn't ELO actively impact this?

I.e.
#1. you win lots of games, making your win % go up
#2. then you go up a bracket and play tougher opponents
#3. You lose more games because of said tougher opponents, so your win % goes down

ELO would make win/loss unreliable. You may become a better player BUT your win % goes down because you are then playing tougher opponents.

(I may have misunderstood how it works, but it seems like ELO would "level" players towards 50%.)

Quote

K/D is nearly meaningless in this game

Completely disagree, this sentence has no logic when applied to a game where killing enemy and remaining alive is how you win (see my post above)


Quote

some behaviours that are harmful to the game are caused by people who are desperate to keep their ratio high

Completely agree!

Edited by Dunning Kruger Effect, 21 March 2014 - 06:50 AM.


#34 AlmightyAeng

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 06:50 AM

LOL. This exact conversation is currently happening here.

I will shamelessly repost my thoughts here, copied from there.

--------------

Honestly, it's a combination, and you kinda gotta rate yourself and ignore what anyone else says. Here's why those values are all problematic.

1. Damage. If you "bring the pain" with a 900 damage game, did you do well? If that 900 damage is spread between 2-4 kills and multiple assists...I'd say absolutely! If it's all on a single Atlas that you eventually kill? Well, sounds like your fire discipline was shoddy...you hit it EVERYWHERE instead of going for the CT for the killshot...and so ended up using WAY more time that could have gone to helping the rest of your team. If you were in a Spider that did it? You picked apart a mech 4 times your size and distracted it from being in a brawl. There, you WERE playing smart. It's about context.

2. Kills. Are you running around looking for damaged 'mechs JUST trying to steal kills? There's nothing wrong with giving it all you've got, helping kill things...but if you're the tiny guy getting that last shot in all the time...well...would you say you're more valuable than the guys doing all the damage BEFORE you show up for that last shot? If I'm wracking up multiple kills in a tiny guy like that, I expect to see a certain level of damage to make sure I'm not just mooching off of others...and I try to help out teammates that are OUTnumbered...not get into the middle of a 5 on 1 and steal the kill.

3. Win/Loss. Well, PGI has stated that ELO is set up to intentionally make your wins and losses as close to 50/50 as possible. When the system is throwing you into matches on purpose that it thinks you'll lose to even that score out, I find W/L ratio to be pretty useless. For the individuals who manage to have an excellent Win/Loss ratio...it either means they are "SUPER LEET" or have a helluva 4-man they drop with. Depending on their loadouts, I am more or less impressed.

So, after each game, review your performance, and think about those things, and compare your numbers to the REST of the people in that match. That'll help you judge whether or not you did well. But just the numbers, without the context of the games? Doesn't mean a whole lot in my book.

#35 Mynder

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 06:56 AM

I'm currently having a blast with my little ECM-Commando again. For the first half of most matches, I will do next to no damage, simply because on average I will be the only ECM on the team, or one of two, and I provide as much ECM cover as I can to my teammates from LRM rain.

I also serve as a deterrent for lights who try to squirrel amongst the group of mechs I am currently with.

On conquest, I need to weigh whether providing ECM or capturing points is more important at any given time.

Towards the second half of the match, I am again presented with decisions. Do I need to counter-cap, or cap to ensure our cap lead? Do we have many LRMs still active on the opposing team, making it imperative that I keep providing ECM cover?

Is the game close, is it now the time to enter the brawl and finish off badly hurt enemies with streak salvos and "steal a few kills"?

I know I played well when we win a game that we would possibly have lost if I made different choices. I know I played...not my best...if I lose track of the battlefield like I did this morning. It was 4 on 4, and we had a solid cap lead. I turned around to do some damage on an exposed JM, and ran into 2 more enemies. What I had missed that in those precious seconds, 2 out of my remaining 3 team mates had been killed, and instead of turning tail and running/hiding/capping, I went down fighting. Needlessly so, as we would have been guaranteed to win on caps.

So these decisions are what I base my estimation on when I consider my own aptitude as a pilot. How often do I make the right choices?

In mechs with direct fire weapons, how accurate is my aim, how often do I expose myself to much hostile fire without being able to force them into a position where they will take at least equal amounts of damage? (Note that I didn't say "that I will do at least the same damage". If I run my centurion into the fray, and all enemies turn around to kill me, and my team gets to shoot 4 mechs in the back for ten to twenty seconds, this can make my sacrifice well worth it)

When I disarm an enemy mech, and there is a second enemy mech still shooting at me, I will ignore the first one and try my best to eliminate the one who is still a threat. It's not good for the K/D counter, but it is the right thing to do for both survival and the team.

My K/D ratio was around 1.2 pre reset. I started out with Commandos. I died a freaking lot. I learned a freaking lot. Now, my K/D rate is again around 1.2. Had a few 12 mans last night where we didn't fare so well. ;-)

My assessment would be that I am pretty much an average pilot with a few good days where I truly shine, but lack of continuous practice keeps me from pulling my average performance up to "shine most of the time" status. Which is okay. I'd rather feed my family than be a community hero, and I'm usually not doing so badly that people need complain about me.

This is roundabout how I measure my contributions here.

Edited by Mynder, 21 March 2014 - 06:58 AM.


#36 Flyto

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 07:33 AM

View PostDunning Kruger Effect, on 21 March 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:


Doesn't ELO actively impact this?



Hmm, good point. Guess there are no really meaningful metrics then...

View PostDunning Kruger Effect, on 21 March 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Completely disagree, this sentence has no logic when applied to a game where killing enemy and remaining alive is how you win (see my post above)


But remaining alive is *not* how you win. So long as *somebody* on the team is alive, *you* being alive has no direct effect on win or loss. Obviously a live mech is more effective than a dead one, but elsewhere on the thread others have outlined situations in which sacrificing a mech is beneficial to the team, and circumstances in which it's better for a mech to do things other than directly killing the enemy.
K/D ratio is perhaps relevant for heavies and assaults much of the time, but it's very hard to say that (for example) a light's role is measured well by that, because there is so much that they can and should be doing that helps others out rather than directly damaging enemy mechs.

#37 Cion

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 08:06 AM

Ok guys, much going around going on here trying to find meaning and compare things. Truth is the majority of these metrics are only useful on a personal level, not for comparing me to you.

Truth is W/L will tend to be 1:1 due to elo system. The only ones that will have something different are the very, very top and the very, very bottom (I'm assuming pugs). Therefore you can be a top bracket player and have a similar W/L than a bottom bracket player.

K/D ratio, and other metrics reflect your playing style and therefore are to be used to improve personal performance. If I build a killing mech and I'm trying to get kills but my K/D ratio is low, I'm doing something wrong. If I build a cap mech and my K/D ratio is low, I don't care cause I'm trying to cap.

So, use these metrics to evaluate if you are being successful at your intended play style, and make corrections if needed.

We can all fall prey to thinking "I'm a good player" but if the metrics don't reflect your intended play style you really need to improve :D

#38 0rionsbane

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 12:31 PM

K/D is important to a degree. but its not a good indicator of your actual performance.
For example i usually pilot a orion, its primary role is a bruiser usually so i am designed to tank and deal damage. ill never have as much damage as a good jenner or take as much as a atlas.
so i shoot for about 300-400 dmg and at least one full side taken out before i am cored. ensuring i tanked a good 300 damage. as far as kills they are pretty random i can do 700 dmg and have none yet still be alive with most of my weapons functioning. or i can get owned early do about 200 dmg, but ive taken that damage on both sides and tanked a good 400-500. and usually have one or more kills since i went for it.

in short i think match performance should have damage taken, damage dealt, assists and kills.
and all should be equal in weight. getting a assists is no less important than a kill.

#39 Armored Yokai

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 12:42 PM

The goal of a mech is to do more damage than the damage than the armor you have or the damage done to you
i normally get 2-4 kills on average and a damage level of 400-700
i am a huge asset by doing so.....but in the end its the team that refuses to work with me that makes me lose.

#40 R3DSKULL

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 07:23 AM

I think measuring K/d is useless because kills are last hits. So say you are a monster and your doing 80% of the damage to 10 to 20 mechs and each time someone else gets the last hit does this mean since your k/d ratio blows your not the one truly doing the work. I agree with majority of posts that damage and teamwork is the measure of a good player. Someone with a high K/d usually just means he has something that has rapid fire or gets lucky with last hits not that he is better than another player with less k/d. This isnt counterstrike K/d went out with old style fps where whoever got the shot off got the kill, now its damage, tactics teamwork.

So i say No K/D is the answer to the question.

Assits are better.





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