179 replies to this topic

[ManusDei]

Apologize for the long rant but it needs to be said.

I prefer to play according to my style and not what the communist regime would like me to build. I've played in many organized groups and some are more organized than others. One common theme reappears over and over ...group leaders believe they can be the best clan, merc corp, group whatever by using meta builds in competitive 12 man drops. Square peg, round hole.

You can't fit a pilot into the mech build without first building skill. Skill is developed over time through many trails of experimentation.....try this weapon, try that weapon, try this mech, try them all. See what works for you and what doesn't. Nobody can tell you what is the "Best" mech build because there isn't one. Anyone that tells you otherwise is full of it.

If winning every match only required building meta then why don't they win every match? When they do lose a match, the meta build requirements are not the problem. Relying on Meta solely is not how the game is won in competitive 12 man drops. The game is won by a strong leader with superior tactics and exploiting the strength of each team member's unique ability.

Sometimes I have the privilege to play in a 12 man pug match where the entire team did not have a single meta build and we won. Why? Because the entire team wolf packed. It was a glorious battle at the end we only lost maybe 2 or 3 pilots. Everyone is smoking from their arms like they were in the brawl of their life....but we won. No meta builds. It can be done, I've seen it done before.

With over 11,000 drops and experience playing with at least 7 different organized groups now, I'm still looking for a competitive group that does not require me to use meta builds for 12 man drops. I know there are a few out there. Please name a few groups I can join to demonstrate my skill as a true warrior which does not restrict my ability to mech loadouts.

It's not about the size of the gun you bring to the battlefield its how you use it that matters most.

Edited by ManusDei, 10 November 2013 - 09:06 PM.

[Wintersdark]

I like your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I don't always disagree with a lot of "meta" builds, but what I find happens a lot is very many people in such groups don't really understand why things are the way they are - they just know what they're told, and then repeat that and don't bother to actually examine things further. It's rather annoying; particularly when you can demonstrate the effectiveness of your build, in your hands.

It also, IMHO, hurts people a lot when game balance changes, as those groups tend to require more time to adapt to changes and be less creative in examining new options.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely understand recommending certain builds particularly to newer players, but it's pretty offensive when there's an assumption - spoken or not - that you're an ***** because you're not using a cookiecutter build.

[Deathlike]

I agree with virtually everything you said, except for this:

ManusDei, on 10 November 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

With over 11,000 drops and experience playing with at least 7 different organized groups now, I'm still looking for a competitive group that does not require me to use meta builds for 12 man drops. I know there are a few out there. Please name a few groups I can join to demonstrate my skill as a true warrior which does not restrict my ability to mech loadouts.

I don't think that's entirely possible in 12-mans. If you're not playing seriously (a group decision), it would be fine. On the other hand, I think there is a global expectation that YOU MUST SUCCEED in the build you have taken to the match for whatever the intended role happens to be.

Meta builds are preferable, but not always optimal for every individual player.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 November 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[ManusDei]

Exactly, according to the popular meta regime everyone has to become a stepford wife or risk being left out of competitive 12 man drops. All I can play is casual drops in those groups. Casual drops don't have any restrictions. Also, your right about meta builds hurts people's ability when weapons are re-balanced because they have to learn all over again and adapt to those changes. Kinda of payback for single minded thinking...aka Meta builds.

[Roadbeer]

Hate to sound redundant, but when it comes to this topic, it remains true.

YMMV.

Just because it's 'accepted' that a variant should be built a certain way, it doesn't mean that it's the most effective build in the hands of the pilot. Anyone who say anything different is either VERY young, or lacking the imagination necessary to build a mech best suited to them.

[Wintersdark]

ManusDei, on 10 November 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Exactly, according to the popular meta regime everyone has to become a stepford wife or risk being left out of competitive 12 man drops. All I can play is casual drops in those groups. Casual drops don't have any restrictions. Also, your right about meta builds hurts people's ability when weapons are re-balanced because they have to learn all over again and adapt to those changes. Kinda of payback for single minded thinking...aka Meta builds.

Also - and I recognize this is just my opinion and is entirely subjective - playing meta builds all the time (even given that they change with the meta) is boring.

Tell me what you need me to accomplish, and at what ranges/speeds you need it accomplished at, then **** and let me do my job.

[RamsoPanzer]

Quote

Sometimes I have the privilege to play in a 12 man pug match where the entire team did not have a single meta build and we won. Why? Because the entire team wolf packed.

Or because the enemy sucked. We´ll never know.

[GalaxyBluestar]

perhaps a thread worthy of a sticky? cause when ever anyone shouts P2W i'll reffer them to this thread. people homing round the best build and it's said that the highlander duo tart is that mech... not going to be like that forever and there are tactics to get it especially if it's a poorly skilled pilot behind it.

horses for courses always.

[Sandpit]

Meta builds become popular because they're usually easy to use and follow what ever the latest FoTM is. That doesn't mean other builds are as effective in the right hands. I would actually venture to say that those NOT using the meta builds are more skilled because they do more with less.

[ManusDei]

GalaxyBluestar, I hear you man and have some of my own strategies for closing the gap on those pesky pop-tarts, and LRM builds. You are so right every mech build, and every mech pilot has a weakness. If you play by my side I will reveal some of those strategies that I have learned in my battles with such challenges. Inevitably and eventually every pilot gets flanked.

Edited by ManusDei, 10 November 2013 - 06:34 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Thread of the year nomination?

I love trying to be different and experimenting.

Hell just because pro people think mechs like dragons and awesomes are terrible means nothing to me as I have found builds and gotten plenty of kills and 700+ damage matches. Same goes for things like light mechs with an ac2 or anything related to the lb10x.

When you can find that mythical group of people let us know.

[ManusDei]

Nice compliment MonkeyCheese. thanks
We might have to get our own group of battle tested warriors to sign up.

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 10 November 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Meta builds become popular because they're usually easy to use and follow what ever the latest FoTM is. That doesn't mean other builds are as effective in the right hands. I would actually venture to say that those NOT using the meta builds are more skilled because they do more with less.

I'd definitely ask that people work hard to avoid using those "skill" arguments; that quickly devolves into name-calling and forumrage. The argument in this case "pro-meta build" is then: If they're more skilled, and doing as well as a less skilled player in a better build, they'd do more for their team in a better build.

Of course, the point here is that the above is not necessarily the case. Those meta builds are fantastic for those who don't have a very good understanding of the hows and whys of things, be they new or just uninterested in mech building. But I'm strongly of the opinion that as long as the player performs well in his build, and accomplishes what you expect him to accomplish, the build is fine.

Well, within reason of course. But there's miles of difference between an objectively bad build and a good build that's not a cookie cutter build. It's important for people to remember the difference between viable and optimal.

[Mystere]

As I have been saying all this time ...

"Meta" this, "Meta" that, I am really sick of this "Meta" {Scrap}. But, what can I do? The gaming world -- very much like the real world -- is infested by a lot of "Monkey see, monkey do" types.

[D04S02B04]

Adding on to it a diversity of effective weapons win more battles than using more of the same thing simply because they are more adaptable to multiple situations and allow for more strategic manoeuvres.

Different players have different set ups and physiological response times etc. Some players are better with snapshooting (e.g. ACs, PPCs) some players are better at keeping reticles on target... and for some that are hopeless, let them use auto aim weapons (e.g. LRMs, Streaks)

[Sephlock]

ManusDei, on 10 November 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Apologize for the long rant but it needs to be said.

I prefer to play according to my style and not what the communist regime would like me to build. I've played in many organized groups and some are more organized than others. One common theme reappears over and over ...group leaders believe they can be the best clan, merc corp, group whatever by using meta builds in competitive 12 man drops. Square peg, round hole.

You can't fit a pilot into the mech build without first building skill. Skill is developed over time through many trails of experimentation.....try this weapon, try that weapon, try this mech, try them all. See what works for you and what doesn't. Nobody can tell you what is the "Best" mech build because there isn't one. Anyone that tells you otherwise is full of it.

I call this a fallacy because they are basing their rational on false information. If winning every match only required building meta then why don't they win every match? When they do lose a match, the meta build requirements are not the problem, its their arrogance. Meta is not how the game is won in competitive 12 man drops. The game is won by a strong leader with superior tactics and exploiting the strength of each team member's unique ability.

Sometimes I have the privilege to play in a 12 man pug match where the entire team did not have a single meta build and we won. Why? Because the entire team wolf packed. It was a glorious battle at the end we only lost maybe 2 or 3 pilots. Everyone is smoking from their arms like they were in the brawl of their life....but we won. No meta builds. It can be done, I've seen it done before.

With over 11,000 drops and experience playing with at least 7 different organized groups now, I'm still looking for a competitive group that does not require me to use meta builds for 12 man drops. I know there are a few out there. Please name a few groups I can join to demonstrate my skill as a true warrior which does not restrict my ability to mech loadouts.

It's not about the size of the gun you bring to the battlefield its how you use it that matters most.

Play only in trial mechs and eventually you will impress someone who will admit you into Valhalla.

[ManusDei]

That is a good point Wintersdark. New pilots to the game can use meta builds as a starting point. I believe its every pilots responsibility to experiment with different builds and mechs to find their sweet spot. Otherwise, how would they grow if they don't try different things?

[D04S02B04]

ManusDei, on 10 November 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

That is a good point Wintersdark. New pilots to the game can use meta builds as a starting point. I believe its every pilots responsibility to experiment with different builds and mechs to find their sweet spot. Otherwise, how would they grow if they don't try different things?

A new player will do better with Medium Lasers and SRMs than a Meta Dual PPC, AC20 build simply because it allows for a greater margin of error and robustness in usefulness across multiple situations.

[Roadbeer]

D04S02B04, on 10 November 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

and for some that are hopeless, let them use auto aim weapons (e.g. LRMs, Streaks)

Ahem... LRMs require patience, especially when not in LOS situations, which sometimes is a greater skill than any 'twitch' response, they also require a greater level of ammo discipline than most auto cannons.

But thank you for your OPINION.

[Lord Ikka]

I like to constantly try out new combos and tactics. In a 12-man however, I believe it should be more about what the drop commander wants to use rather than the individual. 12-mans are all about teamwork, and having lots of individual loadouts can be detrimental to a commander as it may not form a cohesive team.

I don't have a problem with meta builds in 12-mans, as we will always face min/max teams. The issue I see is the over-tonnage matches (having 6-8 Assaults in a team).