21 replies to this topic

[Navy Sixes]

Hello.

Here's my take on how things are going to play-out with the recent LRM speed-buff...

TLDR: Missiles everywhere means AMS everywhere. AMS everywhere means big LRM launchers. Big LRM launchers mean LRM boats. Class limits will reduce the number of heavy/assault LRM boats in the PUGs. Mediums become premier LRM support platforms.

Right now, immediately following the patch, everyone is dusting off their dedicated LRM builds to check out the faster LRMs. What's more, a lot of players are slapping on LRM 5's n' 10's just to see how they play (What, and sacrifice their SRM's!?! LOL)

They are running headlong into a world where LRMs have been garbage for so long that few are running AMS, and people (newer players as usual, but even some vets who used to know better) have forgotten their terrain awareness, or how to move with an ECM umbrella. The result has seemed today like a mini-Lurmageddon. Like the front door of your Buccaneer-skinned Catapult used to say, "MISSILES EVERYWHERE!"

As a result I predict many players are, even now, turning on the overheads in their mechlabs and figuring out how to get a ton-and-a-half free for AMS. I know I've already done it. I'll bet a few of you have, too. What did you give up? Heatsinks? Some armor? Ammo? A couple of medium lasers? Gonna try your luck with an XL in your ST?

So, in addition to seeing these trade-offs for AMS (less ammo, less armor, etc.) its expanded use will quickly weed out those small LRM-launcher spammers. Old AMS chewed up small salvos; improvements to AMS range will render the lone LRM 5 or 10 useless. Welcome back LRM 15 and 20, we missed you!

And with the dedication of tonnage it takes to field the "big box" launchers comes the inevitable commitment of all the extra junk you'll have to take to make sure they work (BAP, NARC, TAG, Artemis, etc.). And once you've packed all that in, you might as well just pack in more LRMs. So look for the return of the big LRM boat. But not too big...

Because remember class limits are coming. I know there may be dedicated prems who run them, but as far as solo PUGs go, I don't see a lot of people taking LRM Awesomes and Stalkers over Vics, 'Landers, Banshees, or DCCs. A/C Cats over the K's, Jags or 'Phracts. I know there are some brilliant and crazy exceptions out there, and I love ya (to this day my best damage ever was in my trusty C4) but let's face it: the average solo PUG has a lot of good choices besides LRM-boats in the heavy/assault classes.

So where I think this all leads is to mediums as the premier LRM platform. I've been running an LRM30 Griff with good results. I'm fast enough to "lurmish" up in the front, especially with the faster missiles! In addition, if I fall back into a traditional indirect-fire support role, when the lights slip into the backfield to harass me, I'm fast and maneuverable enough to make them regret it.

There are plenty of good mechs in the medium class to build for LRM support (the Griff, the Treb, and the Kint come to mind) and since they're roundly considered "not optimal" on the frontline, it's a good role for meds to fill. In an ideal, "role warfare" sense, lights are going to come hunting the LRM boats, and the mediums are supposed to counter them. If the LRM-boats are the mediums, the lights are walking right into trouble. Meanwhile all that heavy/assault armor can be put to optimal use on the line.

That's my take on all this, anyway. I just wanted to share. Lord knows I've been wrong before. I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on the matter. Feel free to discuss and disagree. As always,

Good hunting.

[Wintersdark]

You make some really great points in this post.

With usable LRM's for the first time in ages, dedicated LRM support is a thing again... But with class limits in play, bringing 3 LRM assaults into a pug match is very hazardous.

Mind you, I fully expect to see some 4 man's joining pugs with 1x3L w/TAG+NARC and 3xLRM assaults for lols.


I'm finding, like you, that LRM skirmisher mediums are surprisingly effective. My griffons range from 20 to 30 tubes, sport big XL's to be able to reposition effectively, and have sufficient backup weaponry to not be threatened by single lights. I'm pretty happy to see this, too - those missile heavy griffons where pretty lackluster before, with SRM's unreliable and LRM's useless.

[A Man In A Can]

An honestly sensible in-depth look at the future equilibrium of the game.

I approve!

[Jakob Knight]

Indeed. And, while we will still have some players inevitably begin to demand a nerf because they suddenly are actually threatened by missiles (after so long being able to either easily avoid them or shrug off the very few that anyone bothered to field till now), it is actually bringing the game back into some kind of balance. In addition, the encouragement to remember countermeasure tactics and building for something other than pure damage output can only help the overall game.

Many people will still forget that LRMs are the weapon type with the single highest numbers of defenses available against them, and that a weapon that is as heavy as a PPC or AC is supposed to be as deadly (march out into the firing zone of three mechs boating PPCs or AC/5s, and you will probably last as long, or a shorter time). This is only returning a weapon system to parity, even though it will feel different both because people will be using them more and they will be -slightly- better at hitting now than when a mech could reasonably get off two alpha strikes and still have time to avoid the missiles.

Lastly, almost everyone will forget the coming Chaff consumables, a complete immunity shield against missiles in an area of effect. While it is true an additional countermeasure on top of the multiple ones already against missiles is hardly needed, we know the Devs are working on this and it will allow a force to chain-immunity themselves from any number of missile launchers (we have yet to see a similar defense against autocannon, the actual main weapon used in the game).

Ultimately, this is just putting the game a little more back where it should be after a long period where players have become used to ignoring or easily countering one type of weapon system that was horribly disadvantaged compared with others of similar size. I agree with your assessment that this, combined with the class limits coming up, will both make LRM use more viable and increase the diversity and thought required in their employment. In my opinion, these are good things for the game, even if it is seen as bad by those who prefer battles be one-dimensional slug or sniper fests.

An excellent evaluation, which we can only hope will be heard over the certain-to-be clamoring by more fixated players.

[Joseph Mallan]

So you want this

Instead of this

I see a need for both.

[Veranova]

Yay a post which is logical and well thought out!
I agree with everything you're saying, although I expect that newbies will still go with the more is better and take Assault boats, and you can't really rule out Heavies because Catapults are designed for the role, AND then as you say troll lances will still want to have their fun, I mean who doesn't from time to time?


But o7 sir. o7

[Wintersdark]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 March 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

So you want this

Instead of this

I see a need for both.

I also see the need for both.

This is why iI'm happy with LRM's now... I've no interest in playing LRM support, but I want that to be a viable, useful role. Before this patch, it was neither.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Good post.

[Dracol]

Some good points and well written OP.

I agree medium LRM boats will be more prevalent once the Launch Module hits. As for how 4 mans will utilize LRMs, I foresee 3 set-ups

1. Full LRM: 1 light spotter / 3 heavy or assault LRM boats - Full on LRM tactics, but could suffer from light harassment
2. Balanced: 1 Spotter / 1 Med anti-light / 1 heavy or Assault LRM Boat / 1 heavy or Assault Direct Fire - LRM boat shreds armor while the DF finishes em off
3. Combo: 1 Spotter / 3 heavies and assaults each with a single large tube LRM - Each member can contribute to focus fire no matter positioning, but DF and anti-light are not given up completely

Last two nights I've been dropping in Balanced lances with fellow CI guys and its been working out really well.

[psihius]

With this update some stock loadouts like Atlas with LRM20 and few close-range weapons don't look stupid
And I like it.

I reconfigured my AS7-D-DC stripping one of the SRM6 launchers and loading 2 tons of AMS ammo (for now), put up a C.A.S.E and balanced out my armor more reasonably (not just "FULL EVERYTHING"). Next few weeks I will be spending a lot of time figuring out new loadouts for all my 43 mech's

[El Bandito]

Tycho von Gagern, on 19 March 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

long post

I have had good success with LRM Shawk-2D2 as well. I like the fact the mediums are becoming a bit more useful, even if that role is mobile LRM platform.

[Damocles69]

I hate lurms with a fiery passion. Auto aim should never be a viable tactic in a skill based game.

However, that said, this was a very well written and reasoned post. Well done

[wanderer]

I actually ran my Griffins pre-patch as LRM skirmishers- and the -3M was a favorite. LRM 20 + Artemis, 3 Streak racks, a TAG laser in the torso...and my arms were free to be two very good shields for my XL-engine torso while having the wide field to use my arm crosshairs to keep lock even with my launchers at a right angle to the target.

It'd work even better with the missile speed buff.

[Mardek]

as poeple said before me a very well written post.... but let me disagree with u about the effectiveness of lrm now: LRM must be a secondary weapon used to round a mech (exept the catapult). with the current buff u get shredded in no time. Dont give me the "use ams and cover u noob" crap cause im using both and ams right now give u 1 sec more of life and not every map has adeguate cover.
my 2 cents and sorry for bad english.

[No Guts No Glory]

Mardek, on 20 March 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

...LRM must be a secondary weapon...

Why?

[Damocles69]

No Guts No Glory, on 20 March 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

Why?

Because ability to aim should be rewarded. Those with lack luster aim should learn to aim

[Mardek]

ok maybe i choose the wrong word but should be a SUPPORT weapon and for me support means that u do annoy a damage a bit the enemy while someone of ur team get in there with ppc/ac20/ac10 and make mechs blow

[Trauglodyte]

Great post, Tycho. I think that a lot of people forget that most of the Medium mechs that we're driving came standard with LRMs. The Hunchback 4J had a 10 on it, all of the Centurions ran 10s, the Trebuchet is nothing but LRMs, the Shadowhawk 2 series carried the 5 and the 5M had the 20 on it, and the Griffin came standard with 10 or 20. Only Cicada and Blackjack are devoid of long ranged missile support.

Now, what I wrote above is more an indication that the FASA devs wanted Medium mechs to be able to function at all ranges. But, it also speaks to the fact that, in TT, LRMs weren't some limp wrist weapon. It had it's limitations due to missile loss but it was long range and it hurt. Getting the weapon to a point where people are willing and wanting to take it is a good thing. As Tycho said, it will force people to acknowledge the lethatlity of the weapon and, therefore, take counters. The more mechs that carry AMS, the less tonnage that they have to dedicate to other things which will either slow down their TTK or simply slow them down speed wise. That is great for the game.

Now, if we can get HSR working, LRMs and SRMs will be much better and all fascets of the game will be viable.

Damocles69, on 20 March 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Because ability to aim should be rewarded. Those with lack luster aim should learn to aim

The ability to aim IS rewarded. It is why you get front loaded damage with PPCs and ACs but you have to deal with spread when it comes to lasers and missiles.

I will agree with the sentiment that LRMs should be used to round out a mech. Pure boats of all types are meat when countered. Taking nothing but LRMs is asking to get punched in the face by a horde of Lights/fast Mediums or anything carrying ECM that has the sense to hug the terrain.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 20 March 2014 - 08:09 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mardek, on 20 March 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

as poeple said before me a very well written post.... but let me disagree with u about the effectiveness of lrm now: LRM must be a secondary weapon used to round a mech (exept the catapult). with the current buff u get shredded in no time. Dont give me the "use ams and cover u noob" crap cause im using both and ams right now give u 1 sec more of life and not every map has adeguate cover.
my 2 cents and sorry for bad english.

Why indeed. There are many fire support Mechs that use Missiles as primary fire power. One of the most famous is the Archer.

Damocles69, on 20 March 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Because ability to aim should be rewarded. Those with lack luster aim should learn to aim

Those with a lack of aim normally do run Fire Support builds so they can be productive to a team. You're just mean cause you think you can aim better.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I'm thinking of dusting off my only missile boat this weekend http://mwo.smurfy-ne...84e7be89d2a637d otherwise its the TrollHawk.