60 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

It costs a buttload of GXP and cbills to unlock - now that LRM's can actually hit targets, the module has much better use and does exactly what its suppose to.

[7R1P0D]

DocBach, on 20 March 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

It costs a buttload of GXP and cbills to unlock - now that LRM's can actually hit targets, the module has much better use and does exactly what its suppose to.

yes and if they added a perk that makes lrms shoot straight through cover as long as you were still locked, it would also be doing exactly what it was designed to do, and it would be just as ridiculous and make as much sense

[DocBach]

If you are behind effective cover, the module doesn't make LRM's shoot through it.

[Deathlike]

Just to be clear... here's how Target Decay works:

YOU must gain actual LOS to the target (and you or someone else will need TAG to target something under the ECM cloak), THEN the module will then "increase the time" you have with that spotted target UNTIL LOS is lost (aka YOU cannot see the target, for whatever the reason, ECM cloak or otherwise).

Losing the target lock completely changes the missile's course, so Target Decay extends it. However, the "concentration" of damage is determined by whether you have LOS on the target with Artemis or through TAG. So getting cover will only mitigate a portion of that damage (Target Decay effectively assures some damage depending on distance the missiles have to travel vs the last time you saw your target).

However, the speed of the missiles are actually fast enough that the concentration is still pretty significant by the time it reaches its destination. That's just my opinion on this matter.

Target Decay ensures damage consistency, not concentration. TAG with spotters/LOS will ensure concentration of damage.

[wanderer]

Tripod, on 20 March 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

I was in an ac2/dual large laser dragon trying to stop a spider and firestarter from capping mid. there were a few heavies and assaults with me (battlemaster, 4ac5cheeseaphract and some others I dont remember as well as a centurion) that occassionally popped out to help. but the first time I popped out, I fired at the guys in cap a bit, saw the stalker in the back (far side of the caldera but still inside of it) and ran back down the ridge. half a second later I heard lrm warning, turned to see where they were going while running 81kph perpendicular to them. they came over the ridge, turned left into me and instantly cored me. Pretty sure it was two blobs of 60 lrms from two separate boats

Also for the every time I peeked part, it happened twice on the same map. First time I got cored instantly so I couldnt peek again

second match an lrm boat took off an arm after I peeked and ran and I moved about 45 degrees around the caldera and shot again, as soon as I got on radar he turned and fired again, taking off most of my CT, at which point I just gave up and hid somewhere in the back to stay alive while they slowly capped out while lrming our team to death

If missiles are making a right turn to hit you, that's someone re-establishing lock in mid-flight. In other words, you got spotted again, very likely from two angles- you broke LOS to one, but someone from another angle chased around the outside of the ridge and re-established lock- that's when missiles turn that radically. If you're getting that much focused damage? Someone's got a TAG designator on you and it's more than 120 missiles.

On average, you've got 60ish points of CT armor and 20 points of internal structure. 120 missiles is 132 damage, which means he'd have to have 60% or more of those missiles hit you dead center- which frankly, most launchers bigger than an LRM 10 don't do, even WITH TAG.

If he's getting lock and firing the second you come out and was the only one with LOS...he guessed which way you want and camped you like a sniper. If it'd been PPC's or Gauss, you'd have suffered the same fate. Again, if he's managing to deal 50ish damage to a single location in one salvo to blow off an arm, that's...well, darn near mathematically impossible in a single LRM salvo, assuming he's lobbing 60 missiles your way. That's focused enough damage to outdo most folks using lasers or AC's, never mind LRMs.

[Majorfatboy]

Tripod, on 20 March 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Before this patch, the perk wasn't enough of a problem for me to make a thread about. but with the LRM speed boost, it definitely is.

On any map without sheer cliffs or buildings (90% of caustic valley as an example), lrms go right over whatever cover you are behind and hit you anyway, this usually wouldn't be too much of a problem, as LRMs traveled slowly enough that the BS 3.5 second advanced target decay perk that stayed on AFTER you were completely out of sight would dissipate in the middle of you getting hit by the first volley, so you would only take a bit of damage.

Now, with the buffed speed and lrm boats everywhere, if I'm already out of LoS by the time the first boat launches, Ill still take enough damage from him and his boat friends that I'd have zero CT armor and orange internals before the 3.5 second lock wears off (no I'm not exaggerating, this has happened 5 times in the last 6 matches. I've just gotten 10 friends to start playing this game again after convincing them that PGI fixed balance, and now I'm ready to quit myself).

Leave tracking people behind cover to NARCs. Taking massive damage from people that have no way of seeing you just because they have some overpowered perk is ridiculous and makes playing on any map that doesn't have large tall terrain to actually STOP missiles instead of break lock a massive pain, unless you want to huddle with an ECM atlas and get artilley striked to death

Either lower the arc of LRMs or nerf this perk, because right now any cover that breaks LoS but doesn't actually stop LRMs is just useless, since all anyone who has this perk has to do is lock onto a guy he sees missiles coming at and instantly put him out of the fight before he loses lock

NO OP.

I just spent a few hours in My Jester dodging LRMs and ripping holes in Missile support mechs. Is it because I'm some kind of uber player? Hell no, just ask anyone who's played with Me.
Then what could My secret to defeating those big scary missile boats possibly be?
Simple:
1: Yeah, LRMs got a speed increase. They're still missiles. They still need time to reach you. Get. Some. Cover. Real cover, not some rock in the middle of nowhere, hug a building, or crater ridge, or you know, something bigger then your mech.
2: AMS. I've got no pity for players who underestimate AMS's abilities. My Jester has two. They work quite well.
3: Priorities. Catas and Stalkers have their missiles in their ears. RIP THEM OFF. Oh wait, you don't have too, Catas have the squishiest CTs of any mech in the game. Just aim for center mass, and BAM.
4: Look for spotters. You don't have to chase the squirrel, but you can take a few potshots at them and keep them from ratting you out to their buddies.

I've had no problem dealing with the LRM mechs since patch. And I'm hardly an ace. Step away from the nerfbat.

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

what are you crazy, they should nerf your QQ, that module costs way too much to nerf...you have seriously gone off the deep end here.....

[7R1P0D]

Majorfatboy, on 20 March 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

NO OP.

I just spent a few hours in My Jester dodging LRMs and ripping holes in Missile support mechs. Is it because I'm some kind of uber player? Hell no, just ask anyone who's played with Me.
Then what could My secret to defeating those big scary missile boats possibly be?
Simple:
1: Yeah, LRMs got a speed increase. They're still missiles. They still need time to reach you. Get. Some. Cover. Real cover, not some rock in the middle of nowhere, hug a building, or crater ridge, or you know, something bigger then your mech.
2: AMS. I've got no pity for players who underestimate AMS's abilities. My Jester has two. They work quite well.
3: Priorities. Catas and Stalkers have their missiles in their ears. RIP THEM OFF. Oh wait, you don't have too, Catas have the squishiest CTs of any mech in the game. Just aim for center mass, and BAM.
4: Look for spotters. You don't have to chase the squirrel, but you can take a few potshots at them and keep them from ratting you out to their buddies.

I've had no problem dealing with the LRM mechs since patch. And I'm hardly an ace. Step away from the nerfbat.

first off, I didn't say LRM boats in general, just ones with this module, on maps WITH NO REAL COVER. If I was on a map where I could just hug a building, you seriously think I wouldn't? having a perk that totally makes an important tactic useless because the missiles still magically track you is just stupid, especially when 3 or 4 maps have no building or large ridges to hide behind on the vast majority of the map, and you have to not be at those parts of the map because you have to cap

second, two ams are actually useful, but I don't have mechs with two. one doesn't help when two dedicated missile boats decide to kill you

(edited because I just noticed it quoted the guy like 5 times)

Edited by Tripod, 22 March 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[aniviron]

I really feel like this thread should be about Caustic being an awful map more than about target decay. LRMs have always owned Caustic, what cover the map has is nowhere near steep enough to provide effective protection from LRMs. OP keeps telling us about how target decay is too good, but on any other map, this is a non-issue.

[Aresye]

I don't think the problem necessarily lies with advanced target decay, but more in the fact every person is both a C3 Master and C3 Slave.

In every single previous MechWarrior game I've played, the only way you could see what your teammate is seeing is if you specifically added a C3 Master computer, and your teammate had a C3 Slave unit, both of which required slots and tonnage.

Beyond that, it was your own RADAR that allowed you to target enemy mechs, and nothing else.



I see this is the biggest flaw in the entire game, and likely behind nearly every single balance issue aside from Elo/MM. The reason missiles have always been an issue is not because of the missiles themselves, but rather that an ECM light can hide in some obscure location overlooking your team where you'll never notice it, and provide their team with continuous target data.

Now, before people start calling, "But it's a team game!!" argument, note that teamwork is not just providing your teammates with locks. If ECM lights are to maintain their advantage of providing target information for their team, that's what TAG and NARC beacons are for! Or team members can ask, "Who's a C3 slave? I got C3 master." "Okay, you with the C3 slave, go over to this location." That's what teamwork is. I'd rather have an invisible TAG that I can't see coming from a hidden light, because they can only focus incoming fire on a single target, with the secondary option of using the TAG to quickly update their team with enemy mech locations, at the cost of not being able to direct fire.

The way it stands right now, the continuous targeting data not only makes it so missile boats can just stay behind cover and wait for locks, it also helps the pop-tarting/meta crowd, who are able to line up their jump and weapons on a target before they even see them. In fact, here's an entire list of things that could be fixed/balanced better if the constant team C3 was no longer an inherent feature:

- Missile boats would have to rely on a teammate's TAG or NARC in order to fire behind cover.
- Missile boats would have to expose themselves for the duration required to achieve a lock in the absense of TAG/NARC.
- Pop-snipers would have to jump higher in order to have enough time to line up an accurate shot, which gives the targeted mech a better chance to fight them.
- Introduces the possibility for new modules/equipment by selling C3 Masters and C3 Slaves.
- If you're the last man standing, you actually have a fighting chance.
- Encourages better team communication and actually gives Company/Lance Commanders a very important role.
- Would drastically reduce/eliminate intentional kill-stealing.
- Not every single teammate will go off chasing that one light mech.
- Improves everyone's overall playing experience.

Edited by Aresye, 21 March 2014 - 05:59 PM.

[aniviron]

Aresye, on 21 March 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

I don't think the problem necessarily lies with advanced target decay, but more in the fact every person is both a C3 Master and C3 Slave.

In every single previous MechWarrior game I've played, the only way you could see what your teammate is seeing is if you specifically added a C3 Master computer, and your teammate had a C3 Slave unit, both of which required slots and tonnage.

Beyond that, it was your own RADAR that allowed you to target enemy mechs, and nothing else.



I see this is the biggest flaw in the entire game, and likely behind nearly every single balance issue aside from Elo/MM. The reason missiles have always been an issue is not because of the missiles themselves, but rather that an ECM light can hide in some obscure location overlooking your team where you'll never notice it, and provide their team with continuous target data.

Now, before people start calling, "But it's a team game!!" argument, note that teamwork is not just providing your teammates with locks. If ECM lights are to maintain their advantage of providing target information for their team, that's what TAG and NARC beacons are for! Or team members can ask, "Who's a C3 slave? I got C3 master." "Okay, you with the C3 slave, go over to this location." That's what teamwork is. I'd rather have an invisible TAG that I can't see coming from a hidden light, because they can only focus incoming fire on a single target, with the secondary option of using the TAG to quickly update their team with enemy mech locations, at the cost of not being able to direct fire.

The way it stands right now, the continuous targeting data not only makes it so missile boats can just stay behind cover and wait for locks, it also helps the pop-tarting/meta crowd, who are able to line up their jump and weapons on a target before they even see them.

I'm not really sure how letting your radar gather all the targeting information over hills and out of LOS like in previous Mechwarrior games alleviates the problem of LRM boats and snipers locking targets they can't see?

If C3 were required, I can also guarantee you it would never be used, for much the same reasons that it's incredibly rare to see a light with NARC or TAG now.

[Lightfoot]

Just make LRMs fire and forget like they should be! ADV Target Decay doesn't work like you think it does and to break it just shutdown and huzzah!, it's broken! No nerf needed. You shutdown the lock breaks 30-45 LRMs totally wasted. Please don't ask PGI to tailor the game to your personal needs. Stick to the real balance issues and the game will be made better.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 20 March 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Prior to the patch, LRM speed was 120m/s which meant that, at 180m, 600m, and 1000m, it took the following to get to you: 1.5s, 5s, and 8.3s respectively. Now that missiles go 175m/s, it now takes 1s, 3.4s, and 5.7s at those respective ranges. You're telling me that adding 3.5s with the module is SO overpowering when you've only gained. 0.5s, 1.6s, and 2.6s? You're only seeing the impact at max range where LRM users shouldn't even be firing.

There is no problem here.



BTW, 3.5s is the 2nd level of the Decay module. Lvl 1 is only 2.6s.

LRMs. They are the bane of Poptarts and big fat assaults that don't use cover, and some Light jocks who get too cocky (under 500 meters). For people who understand cover, tactics, ecm and ams? They are effective, but still second fiddle to direct fire front loaded weapons. Seriously people, quit crying for everything that inconveniences you to be nerfed and L2P.

[DocBach]

Aresye, on 21 March 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

I don't think the problem necessarily lies with advanced target decay, but more in the fact every person is both a C3 Master and C3 Slave.

In every single previous MechWarrior game I've played, the only way you could see what your teammate is seeing is if you specifically added a C3 Master computer, and your teammate had a C3 Slave unit, both of which required slots and tonnage.

Beyond that, it was your own RADAR that allowed you to target enemy mechs, and nothing else.



I see this is the biggest flaw in the entire game, and likely behind nearly every single balance issue aside from Elo/MM. The reason missiles have always been an issue is not because of the missiles themselves, but rather that an ECM light can hide in some obscure location overlooking your team where you'll never notice it, and provide their team with continuous target data.

Now, before people start calling, "But it's a team game!!" argument, note that teamwork is not just providing your teammates with locks. If ECM lights are to maintain their advantage of providing target information for their team, that's what TAG and NARC beacons are for! Or team members can ask, "Who's a C3 slave? I got C3 master." "Okay, you with the C3 slave, go over to this location." That's what teamwork is. I'd rather have an invisible TAG that I can't see coming from a hidden light, because they can only focus incoming fire on a single target, with the secondary option of using the TAG to quickly update their team with enemy mech locations, at the cost of not being able to direct fire.

The way it stands right now, the continuous targeting data not only makes it so missile boats can just stay behind cover and wait for locks, it also helps the pop-tarting/meta crowd, who are able to line up their jump and weapons on a target before they even see them. In fact, here's an entire list of things that could be fixed/balanced better if the constant team C3 was no longer an inherent feature:

- Missile boats would have to rely on a teammate's TAG or NARC in order to fire behind cover.
- Missile boats would have to expose themselves for the duration required to achieve a lock in the absense of TAG/NARC.
- Pop-snipers would have to jump higher in order to have enough time to line up an accurate shot, which gives the targeted mech a better chance to fight them.
- Introduces the possibility for new modules/equipment by selling C3 Masters and C3 Slaves.
- If you're the last man standing, you actually have a fighting chance.
- Encourages better team communication and actually gives Company/Lance Commanders a very important role.
- Would drastically reduce/eliminate intentional kill-stealing.
- Not every single teammate will go off chasing that one light mech.
- Improves everyone's overall playing experience.

terribly wrong, sorry

we don't have C3. The effects of C3 are using the targeting data of a spotter to increase long range accuracy.

[BlackDeathLegion]

Yo OPer*

How about PGI changes LRMs hit mechanics... to the SAME as STREAKS?

This will spread out damage and BALANCE them... IMHO.

Problem Solved... if PGI can do this without Coding Issues!

[990Dreams]

Buff AMS or add LAMS?

[Sheraf]

Tripod, on 20 March 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

you can't be serious

getting hit by 200 out 300 lrms (this is assuming there are about 6 ams in the area and the lrms themselves come in a stream rather than all at once) still instantly puts that mech out of the fight

you say use cover, try using cover on caustic valley. The entire center of the map provides none and the cover on the edge is so far apart that it can only be utilized by mechs going over 120kph unless they just plan on sitting there all game until the enemy wins by caps

this perk makes scouting useless since you don't have to scout. Having a scout hiding at the edge of enemy lines SPOTTING the enemy without them noticing and having lrms rain down because of him is perfectly fine (this is the good thing you were talking about, the one that worked fine before). Having lrms magically track for no reason because somebody has a perk and took the time to click the r button on someone he can't even see anymore is not

I don't even see why lrms were buffed, seeing anyone that knew what they were doing could easily put out 400-800 damage a game in the LRM stalker. now you can put out 600-1000 no problem

You don't have to be in the center you know?

[Aresye]

aniviron, on 21 March 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

I'm not really sure how letting your radar gather all the targeting information over hills and out of LOS like in previous Mechwarrior games alleviates the problem of LRM boats and snipers locking targets they can't see?

If C3 were required, I can also guarantee you it would never be used, for much the same reasons that it's incredibly rare to see a light with NARC or TAG now.

You could cycle through targets on your RADAR, but in order to lock on your crosshairs had to be on the mech itself, not just placed in the box and fire over the hills. MW2 you could lock on through the hills, but your missiles fired straight forward, so you could only slightly arc it over a hill. MW3 was similar in that regard, and with MW4, you had to physically place your crosshair on the mech itself in order to get a missile lock.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that lights don't carry TAG and NARC. I've seen plenty of lights carrying TAG before the patch, although NARC was pretty much non-existent. Now after the patch, you see nearly every mech in the game carrying TAG, and NARC beacons are flying around everywhere.

DocBach, on 21 March 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

terribly wrong, sorry

we don't have C3. The effects of C3 are using the targeting data of a spotter to increase long range accuracy.

I wasn't saying we actually have the C3 system, but rather the gameplay mechanic of being able to always see what your teammates are seeing is the exact same thing as everybody having both a C3 master and slave.

[aniviron]

Aresye, on 22 March 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

You could cycle through targets on your RADAR, but in order to lock on your crosshairs had to be on the mech itself, not just placed in the box and fire over the hills. MW2 you could lock on through the hills, but your missiles fired straight forward, so you could only slightly arc it over a hill. MW3 was similar in that regard, and with MW4, you had to physically place your crosshair on the mech itself in order to get a missile lock.

I do hate to burst your bubble about LRMs from MW2/3, but if you lock, look up quickly and then fire, they follow an arcing trajectory just like in MWO. Using your brain with LRMs meant you got to switch between two useful firing modes. For all intents and purposes, LRMs were indirect fire with no need for a spotter in MW2 netmech, and that was truly terrible.

[Aresye]

aniviron, on 22 March 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

I do hate to burst your bubble about LRMs from MW2/3, but if you lock, look up quickly and then fire, they follow an arcing trajectory just like in MWO. Using your brain with LRMs meant you got to switch between two useful firing modes. For all intents and purposes, LRMs were indirect fire with no need for a spotter in MW2 netmech, and that was truly terrible.

You've presented a valid counter-point with regards to missiles, but it doesn't fully debunk my original questioning of the game's targeting mechanics, which completely eliminate any tactical use of RADAR ranges.

As of right now, ECM is the only means of tacticifully using electronic warfare, but there's so few mechs that can equip it, the rest of the mechs have no EW capabilities, or they're extremely degraded to the point of being useless.

For example, the Advanced RADAR Range module is pretty much pointless when you receive info. from teammates out to 2500+m.

BAP, normally utilized to extend RADAR range and target ECM and/or passive RADAR mechs out to a farther range, is pretty much useless.

There's no need for a C3M/C3S system, considering everybody on your team has it to begin with.

In short, I think players that don't have the ability to carry ECM should be afforded at least some level of EW control such as being able to control whether they're own RADAR is active or passive, allowing non-ECM mechs at least some level of protection at the cost of having a severely limited range and no lock-on capability.