203 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 24 March 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

I disagree

Leaving customers thinking you blatantly lied, misled, deceived, and took money from them under false pretenses is FAR worse than "Hey, we're small, we can't do this, maybe later we'll look back into it but it is what it is"

What were these in relation to? okay i know CW, i think we all know that was pushed back but more details would be helpful.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 24 March 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

What were these in relation to? okay i know CW, i think we all know that was pushed back but more details would be helpful.

"temporary" group limits
"CW" it's in quotes because it's no longer community warfare, it's faction warfare according to the latest Vlog
the consistent "our position at the time" changes over the past 2 years
Take your pick

[Sargon X]

AlexEss, on 21 March 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

As for NGNG, it is the price you pay i guess. You are either independent with a capital I like that other show was/is and then have the freedom to take digs and play rough with the object of your desire

Which other show are you speaking of? Is there another active podcast?

[Roadbeer]

Sandpit, on 24 March 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

because it's no longer community warfare, it's faction warfare according to the latest Vlog

I actually think that they're the same thing. Faction warfare is a more accurate description than 'community warfare', because CW has been alive and well on the forums since the day CB closed

Having said that, they do seem to like to be coy with their use English language, however, they often forget that we're pretty savvy with the language as well, and that gets them into these situations.

1st Person is sacrosanct (until we can find a compelling reason to make 3rd person, then we'll pretend we didn't know the meaning of sacrosanct)
Large groups are returning (but you won't like it)
84% of our launches are solo (Let's let them debate what we mean by launches)

They've definitely taken some pointers from politicians, "We'll call it Obamacare, unless its' unpopular, then we'll make it seem like we've always called it the ACA and it's the opposition who calls it that, but if it's popular, we'll run with it"

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 24 March 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

"temporary" group limits
"CW" it's in quotes because it's no longer community warfare, it's faction warfare according to the latest Vlog
the consistent "our position at the time" changes over the past 2 years
Take your pick

i see, what you mean about CW but the only fact that keeps it community warfare is that its gonna be a persistent universe. In which you have to be actively engaged. Faction warfare is just faction vs faction without necessarily engaging on something bigger.

Faction warfare=housevshouse'
Community warfare=house vs,clans/factions in a persistent universe but i may be going a bit over top and not clarifying it right.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 24 March 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 24 March 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

i see, what you mean about CW but the only fact that keeps it community warfare is that its gonna be a persistent universe. In which you have to be actively engaged. Faction warfare is just faction vs faction without necessarily engaging on something bigger

we don't know that. we don't know that because PGI is seemingly incapable of giving clear and concise information to customers while expecting them to drop hundreds of dollars on their product in good faith

Roadbeer, on 24 March 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

I actually think that they're the same thing. Faction warfare is a more accurate description than 'community warfare', because CW has been alive and well on the forums since the day CB closed

Having said that, they do seem to like to be coy with their use English language, however, they often forget that we're pretty savvy with the language as well, and that gets them into these situations.

1st Person is sacrosanct (until we can find a compelling reason to make 3rd person, then we'll pretend we didn't know the meaning of sacrosanct)
Large groups are returning (but you won't like it)
84% of our launches are solo (Let's let them debate what we mean by launches)

They've definitely taken some pointers from politicians, "We'll call it Obamacare, unless its' unpopular, then we'll make it seem like we've always called it the ACA and it's the opposition who calls it that, but if it's popular, we'll run with it"

You might be right but I really am sick and tired of trying to explain to a multi-million dollar college educated professional development team that being able to drop as a team in a team based game shouldn't require an act of congress to do. it's MUCH easier to just find another game to spend time and money on. (Still hoping SC's DFM hooks me personally)

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 24 March 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

CW" it's in quotes because it's no longer community warfare, it's faction warfare according to the latest Vlog
the consistent "our position at the time" changes over the past 2 years

To be fair, Faction gameplay was announced formally at the launch event, as Phase Two of Community Warfare. It's the public non-merc gameplay that contributes to Community Warfare.

[AntharPrime]

Rebas Kradd, on 24 March 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Unfortunately, this very thing tends to be a corporate reality.

Wanna know why they lied about CW being 90 days out?

Because their only alternative was to go "Ummm, yeah, we've coded ourselves into a corner with bad hitreg and the UI and a bunch of other stuff, and we also just don't have the development pace we thought we'd have. So...yeah, CW is going to be another two years out while we fix this stuff."

Yeah, right. The customers would leave in droves and the game would go broke.

I don't like it any more than you do, but I understand why it happened. Their early missteps left them in an uncomfortable spot.

Sandpit, on 24 March 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

Now customers are leaving because PGI "lied" to them. At least with them admitting that I'd still be willing to give them money. Now? Not a single penny. That money that went to a Masakari pack? It's already being spent on other games for other companies.

I agree with Sandpit. Honesty can work miracles for game companies that are handling an IP that's a fan favorite. Take Palladium Books for example. They are a pen and paper RPG publisher that nearly went under when their Sales manager "allegedly embezzeled upwards of $1.3 million from the company leaving them in a position of having to close their doors in a few weeks. Close friends and a few close fans urged the owner to leave his fans know what was going on instead of just closing it's doors without a word. The fans rallied behind the company and even suggested a fundraiser campaign where the owner made a print to sell in order to raise funds to wrestle the company back to the brink. They are still in business today thanks to a small fan base that helps keep them afloat.

[Sandpit]

AntharPrime, on 24 March 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

I agree with Sandpit. Honesty can work miracles for game companies that are handling an IP that's a fan favorite. Take Palladium Books for example. They are a pen and paper RPG publisher that nearly went under when their Sales manager "allegedly embezzeled upwards of $1.3 million from the company leaving them in a position of having to close their doors in a few weeks. Close friends and a few close fans urged the owner to leave his fans know what was going on instead of just closing it's doors without a word. The fans rallied behind the company and even suggested a fundraiser campaign where the owner made a print to sell in order to raise funds to wrestle the company back to the brink. They are still in business today thanks to a small fan base that helps keep them afloat.

That's at the core of a lot of what I've said. This IP doesn't have what I'd consider a "huge" following anymore but it does have a very loyal and passionate fanbase. Those are the ones that drop hundreds and thousands of dollars on the IP. They're the ones that buy things like the gold mechs. The average casual player who has no idea what Btech is outside of what they've learned from MWO isn't going to drop $500 on a gold mech typically speaking.

Now had PGI come clean about a few things, been more upfront with where they were at (if you honestly believe that they mysteriously learned that they couldn't get CW out until later this year after 2 years of delays and suddenly it magical having a "real" release date AFTER renewing the IP from MS... well let's just remember what they say about being born every second) and had made a call and offered some extra perks for different things and pledge packages, etc. there would have been plenty of hardcore fans that would have dropped money into this to help fund a bigger dev team and such.

By being less then upfront (since I know what the word "lying" would do) they created a very hostile environment with a lot of their customers. They created that mess themselves. Then they wonder why customers are refusing to hand over money, preorder stuff, accuse them of lying, leaving the game, etc.

Group limits are my main issue. There is absolutely no way to convince me that for over a year now they've flat out said group limits were temporary. Every single dollar I've given them past founders was based in part on that very premise. Whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant. They took money from customers under what some will consider false pretenses. You CAN NOT take money from paying customers while saying one thing and then doing another and not expect them to be unhappy at best and toxic at worst. I have ZERO sympathy for PGI at this point. Either do what you say you're going to do or don't let paying customers think you're doing one thing for a year or more then suddenly without any warning "change your position". Regardless of how and why that change occurred and whether you think it was intentional or not, it's a piss poor way to do business, period.

[Hellen Wheels]

Sandpit, on 21 March 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

lol nah, I'll let you in on a huge secret of most wrestling locker rooms. They're all a bunch of geeks and nerds

As a long time fan of professional wrestling (how long? I am old enough to remember seeing Killer Kowalksi in a few tv matches, loved him and **** "The Bruiser") I salute you. [Edit: LoL. "Richard" the Bruiser, that is LOL]

CSB: my older sister dated the original masked Spoiler when she was about 17 yo. When his career was just starting.

OT: thx for the summary OP

Edited by Hellen Wheels, 24 March 2014 - 04:43 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

Roadbeer, on 20 March 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Listened to to the first 10 minutes and how happy everyone is that this is now becoming an Esport

This is now becoming an E sport ?

Hahaahaaahaa..

omg this game is barely fit for pug play let alone cash prizes..and leet pro playahz

[Igorius]

Sandpit, on 24 March 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

Group limits are my main issue. There is absolutely no way to convince me that for over a year now they've flat out said group limits were temporary. Every single dollar I've given them past founders was based in part on that very premise. Whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant. They took money from customers under what some will consider false pretenses. You CAN NOT take money from paying customers while saying one thing and then doing another and not expect them to be unhappy at best and toxic at worst. I have ZERO sympathy for PGI at this point. Either do what you say you're going to do or don't let paying customers think you're doing one thing for a year or more then suddenly without any warning "change your position". Regardless of how and why that change occurred and whether you think it was intentional or not, it's a piss poor way to do business, period.

I agree with your whole post, but this deserves restating. The change in the economy last year, combined with the tedious, monotonous nature of the grind, really hurt myself and my friends. We tried to roll with it, but 2/3rds of them left. Since then, the remainder got chiseled off for one reason or another (boredom and frustration were the two biggest reasons, but not the only ones). I've kinda-sorta held on, mostly because I kept wanting to feel the excitement I used to feel about the game. Now they're basically "changing position" on Community Warfare, again.

I've got one friend, one single friend, who still plays. Even then, it's disjointed and short bursts of play. No longer do we engage in the hours of gaming every night. No more do we razz each other over bad shots, nor cheer each other over amazing kills. If they nix the one thing that acted as this game's raison d'etre, then it's only a matter of time before there will be no one left of the "old guard" who so desperately wanted this game, warts and all.

[RG Notch]

Igorius, on 24 March 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

If they nix the one thing that acted as this game's raison d'etre, then it's only a matter of time before there will be no one left of the "old guard" who so desperately wanted this game, warts and all.

Ah the people so desperate for any MW game they will take anything that has the words Mechwarrior or Battletech. The beauty of those folks who wanted any MW game no matter how lame and shallow over no game are going to get just that. A lame and shallow game for a while and then no game. If these folks had helped out when others were trying to send the message that PGI was going in the wrong direction instead of saying better a half assed game then no game, they might have ended up with a less half assed game and one that could have lasted longer. I guess those folks better get to buying MC.

[TexAce]

Quote

37:00 Russ is asking himself what people really want more after launch module:
A. Community Warfare
or
B. Collisions, other parts of the game polished up first, knock downs, SRM fixes, UI 2.0/mechlab improvements.

For me this looks like "We dont have anything yet for CW so we kinda fake a vote if the players want CW or other stuff first and then we say they wanted the other stuff and CW is coming later".

[Edustaja]

If only there were even simple things like clan tags...

[Mycrus]

TexAss, on 26 March 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

For me this looks like "We dont have anything yet for CW so we kinda fake a vote if the players want CW or other stuff first and then we say they wanted the other stuff and CW is coming later".

Yah autocratic rule of the silent majority

[Tekadept]

Edustaja, on 26 March 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

If only there were even simple things like clan tags...

no need, the majority of players aren't in clans..

[TLBFestus]

TexAss, on 26 March 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

For me this looks like "We dont have anything yet for CW so we kinda fake a vote if the players want CW or other stuff first and then we say they wanted the other stuff and CW is coming later".

After all the misrepresentation and flat out lies from. Russ Bullock you are right in questioning anything he says for the Developers. Of course, acoording to his credo, it's not lieing if it's simply a change of position.

Edited by TLBFestus, 26 March 2014 - 11:26 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Rebas Kradd, on 24 March 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

That's naive. Maybe it's true for you and me, but from most people, transparency would coax nothing but outrage.

Not sure I agree with that. Look at Star Citizen. They had a hard deadline for their dogfighting module, and were really pushing that date. Then, they failed to meet it. They wrote a detailed post on why they changed their minds, told everyone it didn't make sense to release a version of it that wouldn't be useful to overall development.

There was come complaining, yeah...but no one ragequit in droves. Most of the reactions I saw were "Cool, thanks for the info. We'd rather you guys do it right."

I guess it's supposedly coming out somewhere in 2-4 weeks now...several months behind the deadline they originally set...but due to their transparency on the situation the majority of backers have been okay with it. *shrug*

[Sandpit]

Ghost Badger, on 27 March 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Not sure I agree with that. Look at Star Citizen. They had a hard deadline for their dogfighting module, and were really pushing that date. Then, they failed to meet it. They wrote a detailed post on why they changed their minds, told everyone it didn't make sense to release a version of it that wouldn't be useful to overall development.

There was come complaining, yeah...but no one ragequit in droves. Most of the reactions I saw were "Cool, thanks for the info. We'd rather you guys do it right."

I guess it's supposedly coming out somewhere in 2-4 weeks now...several months behind the deadline they originally set...but due to their transparency on the situation the majority of backers have been okay with it. *shrug*

Nah, it's far better to do something like miss a deadline, not communicate anything about for a few months, give a new deadline 90 days out, miss that one, not say anything about it for a few months, then give a new deadline 90 days out, then not say anything about it for a few months, then say "oops, our bad, UI2.", give another deadline 90 days out, miss it too, not say anything for a few months, then say "oops, we were waiting to see what happened with the license from MS"

Then change some fundamental rules (IE group sizes) 2 months before the new launch module and wonder why customers aren't happy....