517 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Eddrick, on 21 March 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Autocannons need to have thier own unique feel. Because, they are a unique weapon. To make them differant from PPC and Gauss Rifle, I recoment the "Burst Fire" approch. I'm not sure what to do about the specifics. But, Autocannons should be notisably differant from the rest.

burst fire would make them more like lasers. Not different.

[Bilbo]

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

burst fire would make them more like lasers. Not different.

Depends on the duration of the burst.

[Madw0lf]

Bilbo, on 21 March 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Depends on the duration of the burst.

Too short a burst and oud make no difference, too long andtheyd be at least like pulse lasers, which is probly the minimum duration youd want

As a compromise between camps, what about turning ACs into more DPS weapons? Quarter all their stats except range?

[Damocles69]

Range profile reduction to 2-2.5 is the only change that is needed.

[WarHippy]

Eddrick, on 21 March 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Autocannons need to have thier own unique feel. Because, they are a unique weapon. To make them differant from PPC and Gauss Rifle, I recoment the "Burst Fire" approch. I'm not sure what to do about the specifics. But, Autocannons should be notisably differant from the rest.

How does making them like lasers make them different from the rest?

[Eddrick]

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

burst fire would make them more like lasers. Not different.

A few squick shots in about 1/2 a second or a little less should be enough to make them differant from Lasers and you have to lead those shots, too. Which, is also differant from Lasers.

[Damocles69]

AC20 should not out preform AC 10 at the AC10's optimal range.

Brawlers now have a greater chance to close the gap on the small bore ACs instead of getting plucked to death at extream range.

[Varent]

Bilbo, on 21 March 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Depends on the duration of the burst.

Its a very narrow margine.

Id prefer to see more variatons on AC myself so both types are in the game, balanced through various other things. Perhaps the Solid slug has abit more cd and heat, or less ammo, while the burst has lower cd, lower heat, more ammo etc, just for some examples.

Eddrick, on 21 March 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

A few squick shots in about 1/2 a second or a little less should be enough to make them differant from Lasers and you have to lead those shots, too. Which, is also differant from Lasers.

large pulse lasers are .6 second burst duration. making ac .5 would basically make them pulse lasers.

[Trauglodyte]

Instead of making lists, let's at least explain why things need to change:

Range - This is an issue in and of itself when the heavier AC does more damage than the next lightest AC. We see it with the 20 vs the 10 all the way up. The Gauss Rifle is the only outlier but that is because it is tier2 tech. While velocity changes made hitting targets at range with teh 20, it isn't impossible (lots of idiots out there that like to stand still). At any rate, I shouldn't suffer when my AC is the proper range wheel house just because PGI didn't think about this. Fix it. Once that is done, you probably don't need to fix the whole 3x issue. Though, it might be that this can't be done due to how the ranges are currently.

Projectile Speeds - something needs to be done to decouple ACs from PPCs. Whether we put the AC2s and 5s on the GH table with PPCs or we drop the speeds down further. The real issue here is that the velocity of the weapons combined with the 3x range makes ACs as dangerous as they are. The lack of heat makes up for their weight but if I can reach out and bang you for 3-4 damage at 800m+ with an AC5 while pairing it up with a PPC, something is wrong.

Refire Times - this entire game is going too fast; let's slow it down if needed but this is a smaller issue (except for the AC2 which are firing way too damned fast). Putting them on the same scale as lasers and missiles would do a lot. AC10 needs to be around 3s, AC5 needs to be around 1.8-1.9, adn the 2 needs be put at a 1s cool down.

Ammo - Why are ACs getting more ammo than missiles? Makes no sense and just needs to be fixed or missiles need their ammo counts to go up. But, the biggest thing here is that you need to make measured use of your ammo instead of just spraying and praying which too many people do.

Recoil - A must, just do it.

[Bilbo]

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Its a very narrow margine.

Id prefer to see more variatons on AC myself so both types are in the game, balanced through various other things. Perhaps the Solid slug has abit more cd and heat, or less ammo, while the burst has lower cd, lower heat, more ammo etc, just for some examples.



large pulse lasers are .6 second burst duration. making ac .5 would basically make them pulse lasers.

Not really. You can still drag a pulse laser a bit. By the time you realize you need to drag an AC the rounds are already away.

[Coralld]

There is another option you can add to that list Mr. OP, and that is they can increase the projectile drop rate so that they don't have such a flat trajectory.

[Varent]

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Recoil - A must, just do it.

Jump sniping is still a fairly dominant meta.

Recoil does didly to jump sniping.

Recoil hurts brawlers.

Why do we need recoil? Out of all the other good options out there.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I'd like to see burst fire given to Ultra autocannons to differentiate them from the standards, with a requisite increase in DPS to make them a good trade-off.

So an Ultra AC5 will look something like this:

-Fires a burst of 3 shells doing 1.67 damage each. (Each 3-round burst uses 1 ammo)
-Each burst takes 0.2 seconds (0.1s between individual shells)
-1 second cooldown between bursts
-Higher DPS, but harder to land all of the damage in one component.

Double-taps and Jamming would work the same, but each individual shot in a burst would have an individual chance to jam, and any unfired shots in a burst are simply lost. So if it jams on the first shot of a burst, that entire 3-round burst goes away. It would be interesting to have each jam increase a chance of damaging the weapon as well.

Bigger Ultra autocannons would have longer bursts, so an Ultra 10 would be a 4-round burst, an Ultra-20 would be 5 rounds, and an Ultra-2 fires 2 rounds. This would make double-tapping with bigger weapons a riskier proposition, as you would have greater chances to jam and waste rounds.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 21 March 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[Varent]

Bilbo, on 21 March 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Not really. You can still drag a pulse laser a bit. By the time you realize you need to drag an AC the rounds are already away.

so it would make them worse then pulse lasers. Lovely....

ya not much of a fan.

[Bilbo]

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

so it would make them worse then pulse lasers. Lovely....

ya not much of a fan.

How so. If you miss now you just miss. If you've lead a little to far ahead you might actually still do something to the target with a burst fire approach.

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 21 March 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

I'd like to see burst fire given to Ultra autocannons to differentiate them from the standards, with a requisite increase in DPS to make them a good trade-off.

So an Ultra AC5 will look something like this:

-Fires a burst of 3 shells doing 1.67 damage each. (Each 3-round burst uses 1 ammo)
-Each burst takes 0.2 seconds (0.1s between individual shells)
-1 second cooldown between bursts
-Higher DPS, but harder to land all of the damage in one component.

Double-taps and Jamming would work the same, but each individual shot in a burst would have an individual chance to jam, and any unfired shots in a burst are simply lost. So if it jams on the first shot of a burst, that entire 3-round burst goes away. It would be interesting to have each jam increase a chance of damaging the weapon as well.

Bigger Ultra autocannons would have longer bursts, so an Ultra 10 would be a 4-round burst, an Ultra-20 would be 5 rounds, and an Ultra-2 fires 2 rounds. This would make double-tapping with bigger weapons a riskier proposition, as you would have greater chances to jam and waste rounds.

the jam rate is pretty good on UAC right now... im not sure an increased chance would be a good thing.

However making uac a dedicated burst weapon for AC could be interesting and allow more diversity among them from regular ac. I think a lower burst time might be better though. .1 would probly be better since it would be an overall .3 burst rate that would definetly differentiate it from the slow .6 burst rate of pulse lasers.

[East Indy]

Recoil via random yaw/pitch or reticle shake, as a micro-event added sequentially after each shot, -- so it wouldn't affect a single gun, but would proportionately lower the effectiveness of any groupings.

That might allow lifting of heat scale penalties, as well as recent nerfs to velocity.

[Varent]

Bilbo, on 21 March 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

How so. If you miss now you just miss. If you've lead a little to far ahead you might actually still do something to the target with a burst fire approach.

you can do that as well with pulse lasers. With a burst you actually have less chance to land more damage, with a beam you have more overall since there isnt spaced between rounds. It they decide to do it that way. If they dont and make it one solid stream then you have them EXACTLY like lasers wich again, brings it round circle to making weapons too similiar.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I'd also kind of like to see some ammo placement restrictions. You should not be able to place ammo for an arm-mounted weapon in your legs. The head and torso weapons can freely draw ammo from each other and from the limbs, but arm weapons should only be able to draw from the same arm or the head and torsos. No leg-to-arm or arm-to-other-arm ammo transfers should be allowed.

It would be tricky to implement though, especially when you have multiple weapons in separate locations. Weapons would only be able to draw ammo from nearby bins, so some kind of weapon-ammo linking system would need to be implemented. There would have to be new in-game HUD elements to show how much ammo each individual weapon actually has access too, instead of just displaying the ammo in one big pile.

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

the jam rate is pretty good on UAC right now... im not sure an increased chance would be a good thing.

However making uac a dedicated burst weapon for AC could be interesting and allow more diversity among them from regular ac. I think a lower burst time might be better though. .1 would probly be better since it would be an overall .3 burst rate that would definetly differentiate it from the slow .6 burst rate of pulse lasers.

Well, you don't necessarily have to increase the overall jam rate. Dropping the jam rate to 7% would give you about the same jam rate as before.

0.1 seconds in between individual shots in a burst gives you a 0.2s total burst time, which is exactly what I outlined in my post

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 21 March 2014 - 11:05 AM.

[Varent]

East Indy, on 21 March 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Recoil via random yaw/pitch or reticle shake, as a micro-event added sequentially after each shot, -- so it wouldn't affect a single gun, but would proportionately lower the effectiveness of any groupings.

That might allow lifting of heat scale penalties, as well as recent nerfs to velocity.

if your firing all weapons at once this wouldnt make a difference and definetly not for jump snipers wich are the primary users of long range pin point style.