517 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

if there are two things they do NOT need it's a burst fire mechanic and slower projectiles. Bloody ac20 lobs it shell at the same velocity as my .45 ACP 1911 already. Pretty laughable.

[Varent]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

if there are two things they do NOT need it's a burst fire mechanic and slower projectiles. Bloody ac20 lobs it shell at the same velocity as my .45 ACP 1911 already. Pretty laughable.

I agree on the projectile, also works against hit reg. However I want to give an example of burst fire done right and burst fire done wrong.

Done wrong - Long burst, making it too much like lasers, forcing a playstyle down peoples throats and not allowing variation, making ac obsolete.

Done right - Short burst (.25-.30), Giving options for burst fire ac and slug ac balanced on heat, cd, range, ammo, etc.

[Cimarb]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

if there are two things they do NOT need it's a burst fire mechanic and slower projectiles. Bloody ac20 lobs it shell at the same velocity as my .45 ACP 1911 already. Pretty laughable.

That flight speed nerf, as well as the ghost heat curb stomping the AC20 got, are both the direct result of it doing so much damage to such a long range in one hit. If the range was adjusted and/or it was changed to a burst mechanic, the flight speed buff and ghost heat penalty could both be removed. That is actually the whole point of fixing the root issue, instead of the symptom.

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

I agree on the projectile, also works against hit reg. However I want to give an example of burst fire done right and burst fire done wrong.

Done wrong - Long burst, making it too much like lasers, forcing a playstyle down peoples throats and not allowing variation, making ac obsolete.

Done right - Short burst (.25-.30), Giving options for burst fire ac and slug ac balanced on heat, cd, range, ammo, etc.

I agree (mark it in your calendar, Varent!)

[Trauglodyte]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

if there are two things they do NOT need it's a burst fire mechanic and slower projectiles. Bloody ac20 lobs it shell at the same velocity as my .45 ACP 1911 already. Pretty laughable.

Try hitting a moving target with a NARC pod, buddy. 500m/s velocity - damned thing moves slower than my mom <insert jokes here>

I'm riding the fence of the whole burst thing. That is why I'm an advocate of a bore size/weight balance mechanic (I've said it before but I'll say it again here). Take the Jager-A model. Each arm carries an AC2 and fires one round every 0.52s. If PGI were to make teh change, similar to what they do for missiles, it would change the properties of anything larger that you put in there. NOTE: I'm ad advocate for leaving MGs and Gauss Rifles to fit in AC2 slots (GRs only fire solid slugs so it works).

AC5 in AC2 slot - 2 shells every 0.1s at 2.5 damage per
AC10 in AC2 slot - 5 shells every 0.1s at 2 damage per
AC20 in AC2 slot - 10 shells every 0.1s at 2 damage per

There are different manufacturers for ACs and each AC has its own properties. Some are massive bore sized monsters that fire slowly but lob massive shells. Others are smaller and simply firing more projectiles to get the job done. At any rate, this still allows the user to put what he wants where he wants BUT it adds flavor to the game. And, it allows the mechs that are defined by their load outs (see Hunchback 4G, YLW, and Victor 9S) while others can copy but take a performance hit.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 21 March 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

I agree (mark it in your calendar, Varent!)

*coughs, ahems and clears throat* *quotes*

I knew you would come from the dark side eventually?

[Gas Guzzler]

Eddrick, on 21 March 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Autocannons need to have thier own unique feel. Because, they are a unique weapon. To make them differant from PPC and Gauss Rifle, I recoment the "Burst Fire" approch. I'm not sure what to do about the specifics. But, Autocannons should be notisably differant from the rest.

That just makes them ballistic pulse lasers.

[DaZur]

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Try hitting a moving target with a NARC pod, buddy. 500m/s velocity - damned thing moves slower than my mom <insert jokes here>

I'm riding the fence of the whole burst thing. That is why I'm an advocate of a bore size/weight balance mechanic (I've said it before but I'll say it again here). Take the Jager-A model. Each arm carries an AC2 and fires one round every 0.52s. If PGI were to make teh change, similar to what they do for missiles, it would change the properties of anything larger that you put in there. NOTE: I'm ad advocate for leaving MGs and Gauss Rifles to fit in AC2 slots (GRs only fire solid slugs so it works).

AC5 in AC2 slot - 2 shells every 0.1s at 2.5 damage per
AC10 in AC2 slot - 5 shells every 0.1s at 2 damage per
AC20 in AC2 slot - 10 shells every 0.1s at 2 damage per

There are different manufacturers for ACs and each AC has its own properties. Some are massive bore sized monsters that fire slowly but lob massive shells. Others are smaller and simply firing more projectiles to get the job done. At any rate, this still allows the user to put what he wants where he wants BUT it adds flavor to the game. And, it allows the mechs that are defined by their load outs (see Hunchback 4G, YLW, and Victor 9S) while others can copy but take a performance hit.

Interesting and unique suggestion / premise supported by lore fluffery.

Kudos.

[Cimarb]

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Try hitting a moving target with a NARC pod, buddy. 500m/s velocity - damned thing moves slower than my mom &lt;insert jokes here&gt;

I'm riding the fence of the whole burst thing. That is why I'm an advocate of a bore size/weight balance mechanic (I've said it before but I'll say it again here). Take the Jager-A model. Each arm carries an AC2 and fires one round every 0.52s. If PGI were to make teh change, similar to what they do for missiles, it would change the properties of anything larger that you put in there. NOTE: I'm ad advocate for leaving MGs and Gauss Rifles to fit in AC2 slots (GRs only fire solid slugs so it works).

AC5 in AC2 slot - 2 shells every 0.1s at 2.5 damage per
AC10 in AC2 slot - 5 shells every 0.1s at 2 damage per
AC20 in AC2 slot - 10 shells every 0.1s at 2 damage per

There are different manufacturers for ACs and each AC has its own properties. Some are massive bore sized monsters that fire slowly but lob massive shells. Others are smaller and simply firing more projectiles to get the job done. At any rate, this still allows the user to put what he wants where he wants BUT it adds flavor to the game. And, it allows the mechs that are defined by their load outs (see Hunchback 4G, YLW, and Victor 9S) while others can copy but take a performance hit.

Is this the missile tube thing you are talking about? Where you basically have a set amount of "tubes" for each AC hardpoint, and whatever AC you equip has to fire out of that? I think it would actually be a good idea if they could do it correctly, but my brain is having trouble figuring out how that would be done.

Say you have a Victor, which comes with a stock AC20 in its arm. Does it have twenty tubes/barrels, and can fire all of them in one buckshot-type shot, or does it have a single tube/barrel that can fire any AC as a single slug because it started out as an AC20, or can it equip up to twenty "points" of AC, such as two AC10s, 4 AC5s, etc.?

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

*coughs, ahems and clears throat* *quotes*

I knew you would come from the dark side eventually?

I haven't quite figured out which side you are on yet, but I'm on the Light side

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 21 March 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

Is this the missile tube thing you are talking about? Where you basically have a set amount of "tubes" for each AC hardpoint, and whatever AC you equip has to fire out of that? I think it would actually be a good idea if they could do it correctly, but my brain is having trouble figuring out how that would be done.

Say you have a Victor, which comes with a stock AC20 in its arm. Does it have twenty tubes/barrels, and can fire all of them in one buckshot-type shot, or does it have a single tube/barrel that can fire any AC as a single slug because it started out as an AC20, or can it equip up to twenty "points" of AC, such as two AC10s, 4 AC5s, etc.?


I haven't quite figured out which side you are on yet, but I'm on the Light side

I dont have a side. Someone needs to play devils advocate. Im simply amused your bending as well and flowing more towards the middle ground. I dont really believe there is a light or dark side honestly.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Try hitting a moving target with a NARC pod, buddy. 500m/s velocity - damned thing moves slower than my mom <insert jokes here>

I'm riding the fence of the whole burst thing. That is why I'm an advocate of a bore size/weight balance mechanic (I've said it before but I'll say it again here). Take the Jager-A model. Each arm carries an AC2 and fires one round every 0.52s. If PGI were to make teh change, similar to what they do for missiles, it would change the properties of anything larger that you put in there. NOTE: I'm ad advocate for leaving MGs and Gauss Rifles to fit in AC2 slots (GRs only fire solid slugs so it works).

AC5 in AC2 slot - 2 shells every 0.1s at 2.5 damage per
AC10 in AC2 slot - 5 shells every 0.1s at 2 damage per
AC20 in AC2 slot - 10 shells every 0.1s at 2 damage per

There are different manufacturers for ACs and each AC has its own properties. Some are massive bore sized monsters that fire slowly but lob massive shells. Others are smaller and simply firing more projectiles to get the job done. At any rate, this still allows the user to put what he wants where he wants BUT it adds flavor to the game. And, it allows the mechs that are defined by their load outs (see Hunchback 4G, YLW, and Victor 9S) while others can copy but take a performance hit.

I'd like to see some variety in autocannon mechanics, but I'd prefer if it was just an expansion of the weapon list, so you have a variety of AC20s from different manufacturers that you can place on any mech.

I also want to see hardpoint sizing for ballistic weapons, but I think they ought to provide straight nerfs to the weapon's performance if you fit a weapon too big for its slot. Maybe give them higher cooldowns or heat or something. This will apply to energy weapons as well.

Right now, firing LRM systems too big for the hardpoint tube counts constitutes a direct nerf, as you get lower DPS from the staggered fire due to higher effective cooldown and giving AMS more time to take down missiles. Other weapons do not have this problem.

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 21 March 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

I'd like to see some variety in autocannon mechanics, but I'd prefer if it was just an expansion of the weapon list, so you have a variety of AC20s from different manufacturers that you can place on any mech.

this.

[Jakob Knight]

Personally, I'd say the best thing they could do would be to increase all autocannon rounds' speed of travel while at the same time increasing all autocannon recycle times to that of a PPC or Large Laser. Right now, the biggest factor in why autocannon have power out of proportion to what they were intended to be is the incredible refire rates that allow an AC/2 to do more damage than a Gauss Rifle or PPC. Put them back in the place of heavy weapon again, with the slow refire rate that keeps an AC/5 as a very long range Medium Laser instead of a rapid-fire damage machine, and the weapons will be balanced for where they should have been from the beginning.

[Trauglodyte]

Cimarb, on 21 March 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

Is this the missile tube thing you are talking about? Where you basically have a set amount of "tubes" for each AC hardpoint, and whatever AC you equip has to fire out of that? I think it would actually be a good idea if they could do it correctly, but my brain is having trouble figuring out how that would be done.

Say you have a Victor, which comes with a stock AC20 in its arm. Does it have twenty tubes/barrels, and can fire all of them in one buckshot-type shot, or does it have a single tube/barrel that can fire any AC as a single slug because it started out as an AC20, or can it equip up to twenty "points" of AC, such as two AC10s, 4 AC5s, etc.?


I haven't quite figured out which side you are on yet, but I'm on the Light side

It would work like missile tube do now. If you put an LRM20 in a slot that only has 6 tubes, you'd end up firing lots of missiles repeatedly until 20 came out. If you put an SRM2 in that same slot, you'd fire 2 missiles.

So, taking your example of the Victor 9B/S (comes standard with an AC20): If you put an AC20 in there, nothing changes. If you put in an AC2, nothing changes. Put in a MG and nothing changes. But, if you have the 9K which comes stock with the Gauss Rifle (considered a 2 for bore size) and you put in an AC20, you'd end up firing 10 shots over 1s with each doing 2 points per shot. You can down grade and you'll be fine. If you upgrade, you run into problems.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

I dont have a side. Someone needs to play devils advocate. Im simply amused your bending as well and flowing more towards the middle ground. I dont really believe there is a light or dark side honestly.

Someone doesn't always have to play devils advocate, though I do understand the reasoning. I'm not bending, IMO, but I am always open to new ideas and will adjust my own if I think it helps the cause - I am not a hard liner at all. I think that is how the light side should be - interested in the greater good, not my own ego, but willing to stand up for what I believe IS that greater good.

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

It would work like missile tube do now. If you put an LRM20 in a slot that only has 6 tubes, you'd end up firing lots of missiles repeatedly until 20 came out. If you put an SRM2 in that same slot, you'd fire 2 missiles.

So, taking your example of the Victor 9B/S (comes standard with an AC20): If you put an AC20 in there, nothing changes. If you put in an AC2, nothing changes. Put in a MG and nothing changes. But, if you have the 9K which comes stock with the Gauss Rifle (considered a 2 for bore size) and you put in an AC20, you'd end up firing 10 shots over 1s with each doing 2 points per shot. You can down grade and you'll be fine. If you upgrade, you run into problems.

See I could get behind that. I still think some other stuff should be done to adjust ACs as well, but that would be a good start too.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

It would work like missile tube do now. If you put an LRM20 in a slot that only has 6 tubes, you'd end up firing lots of missiles repeatedly until 20 came out. If you put an SRM2 in that same slot, you'd fire 2 missiles.

So, taking your example of the Victor 9B/S (comes standard with an AC20): If you put an AC20 in there, nothing changes. If you put in an AC2, nothing changes. Put in a MG and nothing changes. But, if you have the 9K which comes stock with the Gauss Rifle (considered a 2 for bore size) and you put in an AC20, you'd end up firing 10 shots over 1s with each doing 2 points per shot. You can down grade and you'll be fine. If you upgrade, you run into problems.

How would putting a Gauss Rifle in an undersized slot work in this system? It wouldn't exactly make sense for it to be a burst-fire weapon.

This also completely breaks certain builds, too. The Flame's main claim to fame (RHYMING MASTER!) is that it can fit an AC20 where other Dragons cannot. Since that hardpoint normally takes an AC2, the AC20 Dragon build is effectively ruined.

This also would push players into boating smaller ballistics instead of taking large ones. We'll see more and more AC5s, and those already seem to be the most commonly-used ballistic weapons. AC20s would be rare as hen's teeth.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 21 March 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Someone doesn't always have to play devils advocate, though I do understand the reasoning.

Someone has to play devils advocate because otherwise people dont contemplate the worse case scenario or examine something from all angles and all opinions.

[Slashmckill]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 21 March 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

(I wanted to make this a Poll, but either I am too dumb to figure out how to make one, or naive enough to believe a public forum was a good place for gathering consensus)

Paul said autocannons are getting an adjustment, what do you think it should be and why? (Note these changes only apply to autocannons, not other projectile weapons like Gauss and PPC).

• Reduce maximum range from 3x to 2x
  
• Reduce projectile speeds
  
• Increase Cooldown (lower rate of fire)
  
• Burst fire (beam-like damage)
  
• Reduce Ammo per ton
  
• Increase critical slots by 1
  
• Recoil (based on impulse)
  
• Ammo location requirements (ammo has to be in same component or adjacent component)
  
• Convergence (based on weapon tonnage)
  
• Increase drop-off rate of autocannon rounds (from Coralld)

Reduce maximum range from 3x to 2x - Absolutely, ac's should not be as good as they are at the ranges they are being used at, it's dumb in a game where the average range is about 400m-500m.

Reduce projectile speeds - No.

Increase Cooldown - No, everything else has long cooldowns because of their other upsides, low cooldown is one of the unique things ac's have compared to the rest of the weapons. (though lrms need a boost in cooldown though, hell, up the speed on lrms another 25m/s and just double the default cooldown rate to all lrm lauchers and it would be a nice support weapon)

Burst-fire - No, makes lasers and ac's almost the same. (destroys the flavor of the larger ac's)

Reduce ammo per ton - meh, it could work but i am not too fond of it.

Increase crit slots by 1 - hell no.

Recoil - this is a nerf? this already needs to be in my giant stompy robot simulator game.

Ammo location requirements - makes a hell of alot more sense anyway, so sure why not.

Convergence - Once again this should already be in the game for not just ac's but all weapons.

Drop-off - Even without real life physics, the distances the shots are being fired at would not realisticly give much drop off, so it would be fun to have but it's not a nerf really.

You forgot one thing that only ammo can do, EXPLODE! (and don't give me that "gauss rifle explodes" bs either, thats essentially an electro-magnetic pulse the sends pieces of the now mal-aligned device and various mech internals rocketing violently out of the chasis, not an actual explosion.)

Up the ammo explosion rate to 30-50% and i garuntee Ac's won't be complained about being OP anymore.

Edited by Slashmckill, 21 March 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Nope, you all need to ask for PGI to un-nerf MWO and restore it to Battletech normal functioning. Make the mechs tougher as needed, but get rid of the nerfs.

I used to buy almost every Mech that came out, many with MC's. Since Ghost Heat I haven't bought any except one Firestarter. Not because I am mad at PGI, but because Ghost Heat and DHS 1.4 together eliminated most Battletech mechs from competition and made new mechs no better than ones I already owned, which were mostly unusable. Only heavy AC Mechs compete now, but that does not mean nerf ACs, it means dump Ghost heat or DHS 1.4 because both together are too much for a Battletech game to support and remain balanced.

MWO is not balanced by Ghost heat and DHS 1.4, it is changed into GunWarrior, but Battletech has so few GunWarrior suitable mechs. Most Battletech stock Boats are ENERGY BOATS!

[Varent]

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

It would work like missile tube do now. If you put an LRM20 in a slot that only has 6 tubes, you'd end up firing lots of missiles repeatedly until 20 came out. If you put an SRM2 in that same slot, you'd fire 2 missiles.

So, taking your example of the Victor 9B/S (comes standard with an AC20): If you put an AC20 in there, nothing changes. If you put in an AC2, nothing changes. Put in a MG and nothing changes. But, if you have the 9K which comes stock with the Gauss Rifle (considered a 2 for bore size) and you put in an AC20, you'd end up firing 10 shots over 1s with each doing 2 points per shot. You can down grade and you'll be fine. If you upgrade, you run into problems.

Its a nice idea... but I think the different manufacturers would be better. Here is why:

1) allows for not only different types of burst but different lengths. You could have longer and shorter lengths wich could be balanced on heat and cd as well as range, ammo etc. This makes a more dynamic system other then just missle tubes.

2) if you put in a missle tube system it could directly conflict with a manufacturer system.

3) It is too specific and only really hampers certain play styles. Right now AC are balanced on different styles of play, not by size... so are lasers, etc. Simply putting in this system doest.. necesarily change things.. it just limits a few styles... wich is kinda a bad thing.

[3rdworld]

Knowing PGI.

Rate of Fire & Ghost Heat.