48 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

So it's just a matter of time before people start really catching on. NARC, no longer falling off when damaged and when combined with the new LRM speed is inescapable death in a lot of locations now.

I'd say have NARC 'fall off' when damaged but leave the target decay from that point - so if you're NARC'ed it cuts through ECM and it's like you got LOS to the target. However, after the first barrage hits it 'breaks LOS' and you only get 1 or 2 more volleys.

Otherwise getting NARCed on many maps is simply a death sentence. There is absolutely no way to avoid them. I've had my D-DC in full health get both arms, then both torsos, then the CT destroyed by what was literally 300 or 400 pts of LRM damage that is not possible to avoid due to arcing flight paths on LRMs.

Which is fine - it should be possible for LRMs to shoot around a lot of cover with LOS. It prevents hill-humping. With NARC though it now means you simply can't escape and there is no viable cover within range on a lot of maps. Some of them (Caustic for example) has 4 points on the whole map that provide complete LRM cover that would block a rain of fire when NARC'ed.

I'm expecting LRMs to get a small speed debuff down to probably 150 or 160. That's fine. NARC though needs a bit of a rollback. Not a lot! It'll still mark you as an easy target for all the enemy LRMs and still subject you to 2 or 3 volleys from every LRM on the other team. What it won't do is essentially mark you for 100% certain, inescapable death no matter what you do.

[Sable]

Well... you could just kill the light mech that's narcing everyone.

Also... why would you be expecting them to slow LRMs down? Has a dev said they seem to fast and have some plans to do something? Or is this just your own opinion? Cause in my opinion LRMs seem just right. Boating can be hard to deal with but they seem just right for a launcher or two on most mechs now.

Battles seem to be 3 phases now. LRMs, brawling, cleanup. LRMs until in close range then the brawl takes place and then anyone left over gets cleaned up with whats left. i feel like this is a healthy battle experience and feels fun, different tactics for different parts of the battle.

Edited by Sable, 23 March 2014 - 07:34 AM.

[MischiefSC]

My own opinion. The problem with 'destroying the light mech' is that by then it's too late. It's like a weapon that targets you for the deathstar. I'm all for NARC getting a buff, I'm all for the LRM buff. NARC though needs to have a shorter lifespan AFTER YOU GET HIT. That's all I'm saying, so that if you're NARCed at full health you're still able to survive. You'll get hit plenty, but survive. Otherwise it's a one-hit-kill weapon in the current meta.

[stjobe]

Now that Narc finally is worth its insane weight (3 tons, as much as a SRM-6) and low ammo count (12 shots per ton) you want to nerf it?

It's finally as useful as TAG, just in other circumstances. It most decidedly does NOT need a nerf.

Edit: Corrected SRM-6 weight, thanks OneEyed Jack!

Edited by stjobe, 23 March 2014 - 02:25 PM.

[Sable]

Battle isn't always about preventative measures, sometimes the only thing you can do is react to the enemy. Sure the light may have narc'ed a few people but once its dead it can't narc anyone else. Group AMS can soften the blow.

[LoneMaverick]

Indeed, let us nerf this 4+ ton piece of equipment, which also needs a hardpoint, because it is way too powerful and helps people to work as a team and define roles. It also works directly against ECM, which for its 1.5 tons is definitely way to weak to be considered useful.

Wait, you do know if you're NARC'd and under ECM you still don't show up, right...right?

Edited by LoneMaverick, 23 March 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[MischiefSC]

So you're of the opinion that NARC should be capable of absolutely, inescapably ensuring the destruction of anyone and everyone it hits if the NARCer has 2 or 3 teammates with LRMs? At least on 2 or 3 maps.

That's just not reasonable. I like LRMs, I like the NARC buff in general. All I'm saying is limit its inescapable aspect. 2 or 3 volleys should be plenty.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

So you're of the opinion that NARC should be capable of absolutely, inescapably ensuring the destruction of anyone and everyone it hits if the NARCer has 2 or 3 teammates with LRMs? At least on 2 or 3 maps.

That's just not reasonable. I like LRMs, I like the NARC buff in general. All I'm saying is limit its inescapable aspect. 2 or 3 volleys should be plenty.

ECM does that. You need to NARC all ECM in the area for the beacon to shine through. If there is a single ECM in the area, and 4 NARCs are inside the bubble, all of them are blocked.

[MischiefSC]

Which is all irrelevant to what I'm saying.

The only change I'm recommending is for NARC to 'fall off' after the first volley but in so doing simply break LOS, so target decay still gets you 3 more seconds of lock. Otherwise on maps like Caustic, Alpine and big chunks of Frozen, Tourmaline and Canyon, being NARCed has absolutely no defense what so ever unless your team happens to have multiple ECMs in an overlapping bubble. That's a bit much for tactics to ask from PUG teams, don't you think?

Otherwise shorten NARC duration or otherwise compensate so that it's not a 100% absolute way of ensuring someone will take LRM fire with no possible way to have cover on those maps.

I've also yet to see ECM block any NARC at all. I've seen someone NARCed in the middle of several Atlases and pop up bright as can be for me. Are you sure about that?

Edited to add:

I'm all for NARC losing 1 ton of weight, maybe 2. It should weigh what an SSRM2 weighs. It needs to be viable for light mechs. My only issue is that currently on some maps it's a Finger of Death mechanic. I suspect that's a lot of what people are bitching about with LRMs. You get NARCed on some maps and you may as well log out. There's no defense, no way to take cover, no way to break LoS, no way to escape LRM rain. I say that as someone who enjoys running an LRM boat sometimes. You want to talk about a 'no skill' approach to LRMs, the current NARC model is it. Normally LRMs are hard to use - tagging, holding targets, finding angles around cover. NARC removes all of that and just makes it the proverbial point and click. The current NARC model is creating the exact (normally incorrect) 'no skill LRM' environment (potentially) that people who are otherwise just QQing are, well, QQing about.

Edited by MischiefSC, 23 March 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

Which is all irrelevant to what I'm saying.

The only change I'm recommending is for NARC to 'fall off' after the first volley but in so doing simply break LOS, so target decay still gets you 3 more seconds of lock. Otherwise on maps like Caustic, Alpine and big chunks of Frozen, Tourmaline and Canyon, being NARCed has absolutely no defense what so ever unless your team happens to have multiple ECMs in an overlapping bubble. That's a bit much for tactics to ask from PUG teams, don't you think?

Otherwise shorten NARC duration or otherwise compensate so that it's not a 100% absolute way of ensuring someone will take LRM fire with no possible way to have cover on those maps.

I've also yet to see ECM block any NARC at all. I've seen someone NARCed in the middle of several Atlases and pop up bright as can be for me. Are you sure about that?

Yes, I am the NARC carrier in my shadowhawk, and when I NARCed a banshee, nothing happened, but when I NARC the Atlas next to him, both of them had the NARC symbol appear, which means the ECM cancelled it.

I'll assume that friendlies can still see the NARC symbol, while enemies cannot.

[MischiefSC]

Enemies can see NARC. You can see your teammates with the NARC symbol above them. It's good form to warn them. I'll play around with it with my Jenner.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Enemies can see NARC. You can see your teammates with the NARC symbol above them. It's good form to warn them. I'll play around with it with my Jenner.

While under ECM.

[Bishop Steiner]

I like the current NARC, though I was one of the few to get my lance to buy in on the old NARC being viable, if not ideal. It also gave me an excuse to run a 3L Raven as something other than a Ghost Sniper. Now, I am wishing I hadn't gotten bored and sold the little guy off, as NARCing is their business, and business is good.

[MischiefSC]

NARC is awesome. The problem is that it's the only tool in the game that absolutely negates the cover breaking LOS provides and there's no way to fix it. A light tagging me from behind I can still breka cover with. I can shoot him back, etc. If you're NARCed, you're going to take however much LRM fire the enemy can put out and you're going to take it for its full duration. Unless you're in the 4 spots that provide full LRM cover on Caustic (starting points and the two mesas) then... that's it. Much of the Canyon is the same. Alpine? All the hills are the same.

So make NARC weigh what an SSRM weighs. Give it 10 shots per ton of ammo (it needs to be viable for repeated shooting for a light mech) and give it a 15 or even 30 second duration - just that when the target takes fire and the location gets hit, it works like breaking LOS. So with target decay you now have 3 more seconds to rain hell on the poor *******.

This requires repeatedly NARCing someone to rain death on them, not NARC once and run away, knowing they are going to inescapably die.

Which it is, let's be clear. In those maps if you get NARCed, there is no escape or refuge for you. No way to break LOS, no cover that will protect you. Those OP'ed hills? No help.

Which I'm all for - with reasonable limitations. I'd rather NARC become a viable repeat-use weapon for lights. Hit and move, hit and move. You want to 100% for certain kill someone you need to NARC them more than once.

[stjobe]

Your premise - that Narc is a 100% guaranteed death-sentence - is flawed (as in, it's not true).

Whether it is an intentional misrepresentation or just a dramatic exaggeration doesn't really matter, but sadly your whole argument falls when Narc isn't a 100% guaranteed death-sentence.

And it's not.

[Lexx]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

NARC is awesome. The problem is that it's the only tool in the game that absolutely negates the cover breaking LOS provides and there's no way to fix it.

The UAV also breaks ECM and gives locks without LOS.

I think the only change that should be made to Narc is the range should be decreased to 270 meters, since it's basically a modified SRM 6. This change would force a mech that carries it to get closer to the target before launching, increasing the risk involved in using one.

[MischiefSC]

On those specific maps, Caustic, Alpine, to a lesser degree Frozen, Canyon and Tourmaline, yes it is. They have large areas where the only cover breaks LoS and doesn't actually block LRMs. I've done it a few times in my LRM Highlander - see some guy get NARCed and back away from the caldera on Caustic - doesn't matter. He'll eat my LRMs until he dies, there is no cover for him within 500 or 1k meters.

In those instances, yes. Inescapable death.

[MischiefSC]

You can move out of range of a UAV. You can't move out of range of NARC.

Again. To clarify.

Make it lighter. Give it more shots/ton.

When the target takes damage though it effectively 'breaks LoS' so that you get your 3 seconds with target decay still on the target, until he gets narced again. That's a better balance than 'it's heavy, but you NARC someone and they're screwed a lot of the time'. That's a poor mechanic.

[Chemie]

given narc has been useless for 2 years, I would not jump to nerf it. It weighs friggin 3 tons...

[MischiefSC]

Make it 1.5 tons. 10 shots/ton. Just don't make it light a target up for that long; I'd say give it 30 seconds without a hit, or after a hit 3 seconds. that simple.