775 replies to this topic

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Kjudoon, on 28 March 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Wait wait wait... Are you saying that if I spot for an LRM mech, I get a share of the damage counted towards me??? I knew of spotting assists, but... damage bonus too?

Don't strain yourself so hard trying to think. It means when a mech spots, they essentially have the combined dps of all indirect fire weapons on their team behind them. What that means is it is essentially trivial to have 3-5 mechs focus fire down any single mech within 1000m that happens to be seen by another team member, and with the missile speed how it is just a glancing look can be enough to cause the target to take 5-15% total damage, most of that hitting the CT and side torsos (aka the the vital components that only make up about 50% of the total mech hp so subtracting that 5-15% really hurts the mech more than it would appear)

Edited by Tw1stedMonkey, 28 March 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Fut, on 28 March 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

And here I was, thinking that TAG had to be held on target for the entire flight of the missiles.

Silly me.

Yes, silly you. TAG only needs to be held long enough for a lock. If the person launching the missiles has Adv. Target Decay, for any target, under say... 800meters, the lock will be held pretty much until the missiles hit. TAG would help concentrate the fire, but is not necessary to maintain the lock.

[Kjudoon]

So your statement isn't true, then. If I spot/tag/narc a target, and other mechs do 250 points of damage, it's not credited to me... like I thought.

You're just more interested in perpetuating the myth LRMs are OP. Don't snark when a genuine honest question gets asked. You'll get counterbattery fire.

[Whoops]

People complain about target decay and how it makes it impossible to get into cover. Yeah...because advanced zoom and ERPPC's is SO much easier to avoid, what with no warning and an almost instant flight time. The devs are ALREADY dialing back the speed, which makes it a little easier to find said cover against LRMs. There is no such defense against any other weapon system in the game.

I rarely use LRMs. Most of the time, I'm in my Jenners, because as a fairly casual player, I haven't yet mastered anything and I'm working on those first. LRMs hit me quite a bit if I'm dumb enough to run in the open, or in maps like Caustic where there isn't much other choice. Put me anywhere where I can use cover to get around, though, and most of the missiles are wasted. And guess what...I'm a LOW SKILL player. Not one of the prime Meta, high ELO people. If I can get figure out how to beat it, it can't be that hard!

LRMs DO need tweaking, in my opinion, but only so far as how they acquire targets. It has been suggested, and I personally agree, that any NON-LoS lock should only be through TAG or NARC hits. Either you have a dedicated spotter, or you get your butt out from cover and target the 'Mech yourself. This makes LRMs viable as both DF and IDF weapons while giving the energy/AC people some defense. If LRMs are coming your way and you KNOW the boat is hiding...then you have a scout nearby that has zapped you with something besides the 'R' button. No spotter means the boat has to come out into your effective firing range and risk getting sniped. Many energy and ballistic weaponry have greater ranges than the LRMs, and in a direct fire scenario, the odds are in favor of the pinpoint damage dealer.

As for how to calculate LoS on missiles...perhaps LRM equipped 'Mechs could have an invisible line, right in the center of the reticule (be it arm or torso, so that arm line moves along with your targeting). This line would extend up to 1000m. If the line hits any terrain before the target 'Mech in that 1000m, then the system simply dumb fires straight ahead like it does now, wasting the missiles. If the line hits the target 'Mech, it locks on and performs as normal (since you have to have your reticule over the target anyway for a lock).

For non-LoS, if the game detects a TAG or NARC state on the current target, it would override the LoS system and lock on accordingly, and if not...well, it dumb fires straight ahead like it does now, wasting the missiles. Basically it would have to disallow a lock if either the appropriate spotter states or a LoS were not present.

Multi-boating isn't something that a player really has control over. Either your team/opponents brought them or they didn't.

[CreszZ]

The LRMs rule the game as they are now....if you don't have them in abundance on your team, and lack ECM - it is pretty much a lost match. I have tried using the Joker with the 2 AMS systems and the extended range module and it isn't much help - hope the patch works.....

[Kjudoon]

CreszZ, on 28 March 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

The LRMs rule the game as they are now....if you don't have them in abundance on your team, and lack ECM - it is pretty much a lost match. I have tried using the Joker with the 2 AMS systems and the extended range module and it isn't much help - hope the patch works.....

Funny. You do not see LRM based teams at any competative level for 12mans. Only in 'casual' 12man teams that don't run in tournaments. Why? because ACs/PPCs are still king. If you wanted to make LRMs competative, they should be made 200m/s and 1.25 damage per missile to make up for the removal of splash damage

[Whoops]

LRMs do NOT rule the game. Massive multi-boat premades could potentially put a dent in the current energy/ballistic crowd, but overall they're still not as effective as pinpoint fire.

After all...a LRM boat without a spotter has to get its own LoS, and for players who can shoot from long range (especially with the Adv. Zoom module), that's like a death sentence. So take out the spotter and you take out the LRM's ability to whack you from behind cover.

Also...spotting works both ways. A spotter for the sniper gives them a target to set up towards for their sniping, be it poptarting or otherwise. Calling one fair while the other is no skill noobfest is kind of hypocritical.

[El Bandito]

My experience after the tournament had died down led me to believe the current LRMs are fine as is, and in no need of nerfs.

As I said in a previous thread, LRM boating is already shrinking as people are going back to the direct fire meta build, since it is much more effective than LRMs.

[Evilballz]

Does the GAME DEVELOPERS even play this game anymore? or are they so wrapped up on making money they make unbalanced patches and make you spend C-Bills buying new mechs for new weapon systems??

[Roadbeer]

Evilballz, on 28 March 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

... and make you spend C-Bills buying new mechs for new weapon systems??

That's called "Meta-humping"^tm

and you really shouldn't like your own posts.

[Kusunoki Masashige]

EAT A LARGE MONKEY PENIS PGI AND YOUR DAMN OP LRMS

[Wolfways]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 28 March 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

wrong, with target decay they only have to glance at you for a split second and you will be hit by much of that first volley just about every time

Advanced Target Decay is 3.5 seconds. If the firer is closer than 800m he will still have a lock when the missiles land (just tested it in training grounds).
But that doesn't change the fact that if you can be hit by LRM indirect-fire then you are not using cover.

[Lorgarn]

My bad it was I typo. I was talking about the marker bouy; its NAC not TAG. That little thing makes you spottable for about 20seconds if I read that correct. And regarding my experience shutting down does not breakt that log.

And I am very, very sorry, that I am not god like enough, to spot a light ECM mech visually and kill it before it puts that stupid thing on me so his lrm friends can oblitterate me.

[Sheraf]

If you get caught by a light in the open where there is little cover or distance to cover is great enough that LRM can damage you then it's gg to the light:)

You aware that the area is not secure by your team, and still walk into it. You were taking the risk.

[Whoops]

Lorgarn, on 29 March 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

My bad it was I typo. I was talking about the marker bouy; its NAC not TAG. That little thing makes you spottable for about 20seconds if I read that correct. And regarding my experience shutting down does not breakt that log.

And I am very, very sorry, that I am not god like enough, to spot a light ECM mech visually and kill it before it puts that stupid thing on me so his lrm friends can oblitterate me.

I'm DEFINITELY not godlike enough. However, missile warning + dirt means 20 seconds of them spamming missiles at me that aren't doing anything but wasting their ammunition. I can wait for the NARC to wear off while being bait if it means my teammates have less incoming fire to worry about while they do their thing.

[Zeus89]

Wolfways, on 28 March 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

Advanced Target Decay is 3.5 seconds. If the firer is closer than 800m he will still have a lock when the missiles land (just tested it in training grounds).
But that doesn't change the fact that if you can be hit by LRM indirect-fire then you are not using cover.

Or you're on Caustic. Or Mordor. Or Alpine. Or Canyon. Or HPG

I'm not saying those maps DON'T have cover, but the space between sufficient LRM covers is further away, making movement more dangerous. And there are more places on these maps where the angle of descent means your perceived cover isn't cover at all.

[Zeus89]

Kjudoon, on 28 March 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

Funny. You do not see LRM based teams at any competative level for 12mans. Only in 'casual' 12man teams that don't run in tournaments. Why? because ACs/PPCs are still king. If you wanted to make LRMs competative, they should be made 200m/s and 1.25 damage per missile to make up for the removal of splash damage

The number one Steiner player (axe64) was running a Battlemaster or Stalker build with (in his words) "a 40 rack 2000+ ammo and med lasers...fighting close to front lines maybe 300m from target and tagging enemies" (cleaned up his spelling).

While he wasn't the number one overall player (that goes to Proton, who I don't know what build he was using since I don't read Russian), I think it's fair to say boats have proven to be effective.

[Wolfways]

Zeus89, on 29 March 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Or you're on Caustic. Or Mordor. Or Alpine. Or Canyon. Or HPG

I'm not saying those maps DON'T have cover, but the space between sufficient LRM covers is further away, making movement more dangerous. And there are more places on these maps where the angle of descent means your perceived cover isn't cover at all.

I'm not sure if you're serious...but if you really do believe that of all the maps HPG doesn't have much cover then i don't know what to say. It's obviously pointless saying anything.

[Lorgarn]

Cyron Zarva, on 29 March 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

I'm DEFINITELY not godlike enough. However, missile warning + dirt means 20 seconds of them spamming missiles at me that aren't doing anything but wasting their ammunition. I can wait for the NARC to wear off while being bait if it means my teammates have less incoming fire to worry about while they do their thing.

Thats awesome....really. I have no idea how you do that, but congrats if that works for you. But I simply cant. I am not such a good player, I cant evade that effective. All it takes is 3 or 4 people hitting the firebutton from 900metes away because you just got ONE shot (narc) from a single enemy to conclude my game. And that happens quite often.
I dont see how people can say here, that it is so easy to evade IT IS NOT! Have you seen the arc the missles travel at? They almost hit you from directly above. Let me count how many roofs I finde on the maps.....

[Zeus89]

Wolfways, on 29 March 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

I'm not sure if you're serious...but if you really do believe that of all the maps HPG doesn't have much cover then i don't know what to say. It's obviously pointless saying anything.

It's a lesser of the maps, but it still possesses a massive kill zone in the spaces between the center and the walls at the entrance. Maybe you luck out and have the entrance with the walkway overhead, but otherwise you have to rely on either staying out of the HPG satellite entirely, keeping the tower between you and the entire enemy team all the time, being heavily exposed to poptarts in the top center, or crowd underneath the bottom center. Or the ECM bubble, but that's a given. Anything else, and the slope of the station means you CAN be hit by missile fire.