17 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

Greetings Mechwarriors!

I would like to hear your opinion about the Hero mechs and their "downsides" versus the prevention of P2W.
Where do you think the Hero mechs are in general? Too weak, OK, or already close to P2W sometimes?
With the extremes of too-weak and too strong, where would you see each mech and what would be your (subtle) tweak to them?

EDIT: Added the Huginn as last question instead of "General feeling".

Feel free to use the poll and add your comments.

For me, there are some Heros that are lacking (because they got nerfed in xyz).
Specially the Golden Boy, Grid Iron and Pretty Baby are known for beeing a bit underwhelming.

I hope this post will give us a good look at the community's feeling of the current Hero mechs and leads to future change to them.
Therefor I post this in the feature suggestion forum section.
If there is a better place, feel free to move (for the Moderators).

Thanks

My feelings about the mechs here (not all included):
- Oxide feels too niche and could receive JJets and/or one Energy HP.

- Ember has a very low torso up/down movement and is limited enough, seems OK

- Grid Iron is pretty close to the other variants, but the 1 Missile slot is hardly useable. using 2 Missile slots, or adding a 1 Energy slot per Arm would be my buff.

- Kintaro is limited by max engine and has nearly the same weapons than the KTO-18 (plus one Energy in the Right arm). The engine limit should be lifted, so you can use the same loadout as the 18. One more laser slot over the 18 would not make it so strong anyone could call it OP or P2W.

- Jester seems to be OK, but a bit plain. The best trait would be the high engine limit and a second AMS.
Not sure if there couldn't be a slight buff somehow.
If you had 2E slots in each arm, you could run a pretty X-Wing for more style too and that would give you another heavy Laser boat (like the Thunderbolt with 7 Energy slots + 1 Missile slot).

- Firebrand is one of the best mechs ingame. The combination of 1E and 1B in each arm is perfect to build a Rifleman (unseen).
The current AC5/PPC Meta makes it hard to think about this mechs status without beeing too negative/positive.

- Ilya Muromets is also one of the best mechs ingame (because of the currently very strong ACs). Not sure about any possible tweaks here either.

- Pretty Baby is very fast, but lacks some hardpoints of other variants. I think there should be something more, but it's hard to say what. For now I'm not sure.

Edited by Reno Blade, 05 April 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[BourbonFaucet]

All right, I'll bite:
Any 'Mech I own has a star on it. Note that I pug or play with friends only, no 12-mans, so I'm thinking about casual balance.

*Deathsnail: Seems fine to me, but if I could pick a buff for it, I'd allow for a single energy hardpoint in the center torso.

*Ember: A lot of the community views this 'Mech as OP, but I see it as balanced given that:

1. Tearing off both arms means eventually weaponless for the 'Mech
2. You can still usually only fit one AC/2 despite having 4 ballistic ports, so you're almost forced into taking 4 MG's.
3. With the new AMS changes, that 2 AMS FS is looking really good for defending your team.

*Oxide: Feels a bit weak to me for the same reason the Locust has issues, it's a light without jump jets, so sometimes it gets stuck on terrain and one-shotted. Adding an energy hardpoint to the variant is something I'm strongly against, however, as I like the idea of a niche all-missile 'Mech that can potentially run itself out of ammo without firing discipline. I seriously would like to see a single Jump Jet available to Oxide. This would make it unable to fly like the other Jenners, but would still give it that ability to save itself in an emergency.

*X5: Feels about right to me. I bet some people might like a few more tubes on the missile ports though. I think it's just about balanced to the other cicada variants.

Yen-Lo-Wang: Balanced. I've never seen anyone complain about it either way.

*Grid Iron: Grid Iron isn't so much of a weak 'Mech, as it is a really boring balance solution. Perhaps adding MOAR hard points is the answer, perhaps it isn't. With the football theme though, it just feels like the engine cap should be higher.

*Golden Boy: Seems fine to me, but an engine cap increase, or an extra hardpoint would be welcome if we're going for avoiding gimping ourselves for 30% more C-Bills.

Fang and Flame: Only suffer for the same reason the other Dragon variants suffer.

*Jester: The loss of the ballistic hardpoints from the K2 is NOT worth the 2 more energy hardpoints and the extra AMS. It's hard to decide exactly what to put on Jester, and builds are monotonous with only energy hardpoints. A really silly or gimmicky idea, like a ballistic hardpoint in the head, would be interesting.

*Firebrand: It's fine as it is. I've never heard complaints, and you can still use AC/40 and twingauss builds for kicks and giggles.

*Ilya Muromets: Seems balanced enough, you can easily take away most of Ilya's weapons by tearing the arms off, it has no jump jets, and it usually needs an XL engine to run the best builds.

Protector: It's good enough for the Orion variants.

Pretty Baby: Is weak simply because Awesomes are currently UP due to absurd hitboxes. Fix the Awesome, fix the PB.

*Dragon Slayer: I would say it's actually a bit strong, but I've put balanced only because I see other Victors all the time.

*Misery: My favorite hero 'Mech. It'd be interesting if that missile port was another ballistic port though.

*Heavy Metal: It's balanced, as far as I can tell.

La Malinche: Suffers from having that odd 1 ballistic 1 missile disease. Needs a better hardpoint layout.

Boar's Head: Seems pretty balanced. Maybe if we could have one extra energy port in the head or something interesting to give it a bit more zombie-power that the stock Atlas has.

There's my thoughts, hope it helps. =)

[Reno Blade]

Nice read there!
Pretty close to what I think too.
Thanks for your post.

[Reno Blade]

Need more votes.

[Mechteric]

Yen Lo Wang - Needs two energy hardpoints added to the left arm (this is canon, when Kai received an updated model with TSM and 2 medium pulse lasers on the arm that used to have the claws)

Pretty Baby - Needs one additional energy hardpoint either in a side torso or arm so it can properly mount 3 PPCs

Golden Boy - Needs its top speed raised to match other Kintaro's (if not a bit higher)

Fang - Move one ballistic hardpoint from its right arm to its right torso



And you don't have the new hero Huginn on there either, which is desperately underpowered

Huginn - Either allow it to mount ECM or add 2 energy hardpoints to its Center torso, also increase max jump jets to 5 (same as the RVN-4X)

[DocBach]

Biggest problem with La Malinche in my opinion is the fact that its arm hardpoints are lower than an Atlas -- even more PPC's splashing because there was a rock near your foot.

[ICEFANG13]

It was cool reading what the opinion on heros is. These tend to agree with what I've read in the past.

[Reno Blade]

CapperDeluxe, on 03 April 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Yen Lo Wang - Needs two energy hardpoints added to the left arm (this is canon, when Kai received an updated model with TSM and 2 medium pulse lasers on the arm that used to have the claws)

Pretty Baby - Needs one additional energy hardpoint either in a side torso or arm so it can properly mount 3 PPCs

Golden Boy - Needs its top speed raised to match other Kintaro's (if not a bit higher)

Fang - Move one ballistic hardpoint from its right arm to its right torso



And you don't have the new hero Huginn on there either, which is desperately underpowered

Huginn - Either allow it to mount ECM or add 2 energy hardpoints to its Center torso, also increase max jump jets to 5 (same as the RVN-4X)

The forum Polls are limited to 20 polls and Huginn could not fit in anymore.
I also posted this before the Huginn was announced
Removed the first question and added the Huginn as last question now!
Thanks for adding your reply !

Edited by Reno Blade, 03 April 2014 - 08:03 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Seems I broke the poll now, because of removing a question and adding a new one?

[ICEFANG13]

Seems to be fine to me.

[Gasoline]

Cannot cast votes, always states, that I should answer every question (which I have), so I guess, the removed question still got counted as not answered.

Anyway:

TDK: It's okay in it's own. The arms are easily lost which renders the rest totally useless, but it's not under/overpowered. It's pretty fast tho.

Ember: It's nasty as hell and in the right hands this thing is a monster. I think it's pretty okay tho.

Oxide: Bit of a harsh tradeoff. I usually don't like those purely ammo dependant builds. It lost both energy hardpoints and jump jets and you have no way to aim your shots. Unreliable and no way of pin point damage. It's a powerful and deadly for any other light. So I've mixed feelings about giving it a buff.

X-5: It's okay. Pretty in line with all other Cicadas.

Yen-Lo-Wang: It's a powerful chassis. But it's also easily disarmed of it's main weaponry. Only thing special about the other Cents is, that it trades it's missile hardpoints for the ability to mount an AC/20. So it's neither too powerful, nor underpowered.

Grid Iron: I think it's okay. Maybe a second missile slot might have given it a bit more flavor, but one can already so some nasty things with that chassis.

Golden Boy: Engine tradeoff for another energy slot and less missile tube count? Nah... This needs some serious revamp to stand out of the other variants. The engine tradeoff was way to much. Maybe a ballistic slot might give it some distinct feeling.

Fang: The mix between -1C and -1N. Both can do what Fang could, so there is nothing special to it. Might also need some revamp.

Flame: Lowest tube count of all Dragons, but the rearrangement of the hardpoints (especially moving the ballstic to the shoulder and energy in both arms) makes this stand out somewhat. It's okay I think. In direct comparison with it's brother the Fang, it's plain better.

Jester: I was kinda disappointed they just revamped a -K2 a bit for making a hero with all energy on a distinct missile carrier. But to be honest, I have no idea what else to do with the Cat. Changing ballstic to the arms and energy to torso? Wouldn't make this chassis anything other than the rest. Prolly a mix of missiles and energy/ballistic in the arms? It's okay as it is, but like someone said earlier, it's a bit boring. The higher engine rating and the JJs are very good tho.

Firebrand: I was tempted saying this thing is overpowered... but saying so, that's not because the Firebrand is, it's the JagerMech that is, but just because one can do really stupid things with those mechs. I like the Firebrand just because it's a different feel. One of the best heroes.

Ilya Muromets: I'm unsure. It feels overpowered with those 3 ballistics in different locations. On the other hand, it's also quite fragile. Difficult one.

Protector: It's okay, but for me it's also been the hardest one to outfit. Took me some time to find a suitable layout.

Pretty Baby: It's an Awesome... baddest hitbox in existance... combine it with the weirdest hardpoint layout of all the Awesomes and there you go. A pity... I loved the Awesomes so much...

Dragon Slayer: One of the better heroes. Slightly larger engine cap and a little hardpoint roulette makes for a good hero.

Misery: Also one of the better heroes. Absolutely stands out of the other Stalkers.

Heavy Metal: Rosemarie's Baby. Also a very good hero.

La Malinche: Suffers from dwindling hardpoints. Not bad as a mech, but inferior to most other variants. Only thing distinctive is the right arm energy... Needs some urgent love.

Boar's Head: Okay as a hero. Just don't like it, 'cos I just can't get the hang on the Atlas.

Huginn: It isn't totally useless. But it has the problem of ammo dependancy. You can only dish out so much damage, then you're done. A CT energy would really go a long way here, if it's just for opening the can to make use of all those crit seekers. Tbh I like the -2X and -4X way more. Other than that, I still don't get why they chose Huginn without Muninn. Well, let's wait and see...

[Butane9000]

The forums won't allow me to vote for some reason but here's my breakdown:

Death's Knell is too weak at the moment. The Commando class as well as the lighter lights (20-25 tons) suffer from a weapon and speed disadvantage. They aren't considerably faster then their heavier light counter parts but they pack significantly less firepower. However the hard points on the DK are pretty good and allow for a nice range of fire with the arm movement. My suggestion as loath as it is may be adding ECM. Besides that maybe a missile hard point in the center torso.

Ember is okay. We all know how ridiculous it is with it's hard points but it's stymied by low torso movement. I haven't had any real trouble though as a hero mech design it more or less trounces the competition for light mechs.

Oxide is still too weak. It's still suffers from poor SRM hit detection. The most common load out for those running is is 4 SSRMs. There's been a long discussion on how to fix this. It's my believe with good hit detection an Oxide can be a bane to heavier mechs.

X5 is weak when you realize their missile hard points are limited to 2 missiles fire each time. I'd suggest as a fix allowing the missile bays to expand up to 4 or 6 total.

Yen-Lo-Wang has always been pretty good. Suffers from most of it's punch being in the arm. Really no changes needed but could use it's lore based melee axe though.

Grid Iron is currently used more like a HBK-4G then a hero. Personally I like the design and hard point layout because it's more of less a HBK-4N.

Golden Boy really just suffers from poor hit detection on missiles. All Missile/energy mechs do. Fix hit detection and these will get better.

Fang is simply too weak in it's hard point layout. It's not significantly better then a regular dragon chassis. The only bonus it has is the 30% c-bill boost.

Flame on the other hand has always been good due to it's unique hard point layout. Giving a completely new feel to a mech while not being over powered.

Jester is balanced by it's sheer heat output vs it's gains (JJ's and dual AMS).

Firebrand I believe is balanced as is. Has all the sufferings as the regular Jagers.

Ilya Muromets is a 50/50. It can be powerful or it can be weak. Suffers the same issues as the regular phracts.

Protector is one mech I personally feel is too weak. I don't feel threatened much by them on the battlefield.

Pretty Baby is weak. Like a sick love child between the 9M and 8V. Never knows what it wants and never does anything extremely well.

Dragon Slayer I don't see these too much. I'd guess that means they are weak but it may be because the recent nerf beat down Victors received.

Misery unique in the only Stalker with ballistic. Not completely over powered but can easily be broken. Came at a time when high long range meta was king.

Heavy Metal has always been ridiculous with it's heavily energy load out. Not sure how to balance this. Maybe the quirks?

La Malinche is too new for me to say but I barely see them. That means there is a problem with them.

Boar's Head I see often enough. Definitely has the arm energy hard points going for it.

Huginn is the newest. Heavily ammo dependent and limited weight means using the ballistics effectively is limited. Suffers in a similar manner to the Oxide.

[C0VVB3LL]

The X5 could benefit from the addition of AMS or JJ

[Mechteric]

Oh I forgot about the Oxide, it just needs jump jets added.

[Talan01]

I can only comment on the mechs that I have. Except for the X5

Ember is very strong. 4 MG provides great amount of firepower when you are over heating from using the 4 med lasers. Plus jump jets! It's currently I think the strongest light mech in the game. While not as mobile as the spider per say it has more firepower which makes it the stronger contender.

Jester needs different types of weapons on it. As it stands it's a high mobility energy mech. You can run 4 large lasers or 2 ppcs and some med lasers but it never has the satisfying punch of balistics or srms. or maybe a missile mount points in the side torsos.

Firebrand is ok. The mix of weapon mount points is fair. Allowing the owner to customize it to his/her style of play.

X5 as I have seen it on the battlefield is very strong. 40 ton medium mech with light mobility characteristics.

Huginn is very weak. No energy mount points means you stop being able to have fun in large protracted battles. It has a good start. Raven mech with decent speed with jump jets. If it had ECM then it might have been a contender. But I would rather have some energy mount points. Ideally 2 balistic 1 energy in each arm with 1 missile mount point in the side torsos. Allowing the Huginn player to continue to support his/her team long after the ammo has run out. I wanted a raven hero mech and bought it. But now I feel maybe it was not a good purchase. Now my poor Huginn is 2 artimis lrm 5 mech with 4 mgs. Till I run out of ammo and then I just feel useless. I think I will stick with my beloved 4x raven.

Edited by Talan01, 04 April 2014 - 02:06 PM.

[Reno Blade]

I deleted the Huginn from the polls for now, to make the poll work again at least. (Next time I just replace the text of the question instead of deleting one question)
Thanks for your replies so far!

[GrandLocomon]

TDK - Ok... but now with newer lights it feels weak. It used to be my highest KDR at 2.75 [it's a pro 'kill stealer' LOL]. I think this is just a change of times, and it probably doesn't need anything particular. [JJs would have been SO. DAMN. COOL. though]

EMBER - People say OP, but I say OK as it is. The FS-9 is VERY big and easy to hit for a light. Because it has MGs on torso, it is easy to remove arms, then run out of ammo. I believe it is a good mech, but not OP.

HUGINN - Do not own, I'm iffy on this one. I'd have to try it but I'm not keen until its on sale. Maybe. Looks too weak.

OXIDE - Needs a buff. The ability to TAG for itself AND JJs would be good.

X5 - Weak. Needs greater number of missile slots/tubes or at least move the energy points to the torso and please at least if nothing else, add AMS. Seriously I believe they forgot to add the AMS hardpoint by accident.

YEN-LO-WANG - do not own. abstain from comment.

GRID IRON - do not own. abstain from comment.

GOLDEN BOY - do not own. Having played the kintaros, the best buff would be to put hitboxes back to how they were. Since the 'fix' I quickly lost side torsos all the time, [I always STD engine them] and my combat effectiveness was seriously reduced. Maybe it was too strong before, because I handled it like the centurion before the 'fix'.

FANG/FLAME - do not own, abstain from comment.

JESTER - Fixing hit detection for uber-ping players like me would be all the buff I need. My god this mech was good in the very rare match I had solid hit detection.

FIREBRAND - It's fine as is.

ILYA - Fine as is. Personally don't like it much.

PROTECTOR - Hard points are a bit sucky IMO, but not enough to warrant changing them. It's a good mech because of good size and hitboxes.

PRETTY BABY - do not own. abstain from comment.

DRAGON SLAYER - Voted ok due to what other people say. Personally I find this mech absolutely useless and a waste of MC [well before the movement speed nerf]. It has the same hardpoints as heavy metal and protector [3E, 2B, 2M] but doesn't have the tonnage of HM or the size/hitboxes or protector so it just isn't as good a choice. The only hero I hated enough to wish I could get a refund, or decent c-bills from selling it.

MISERY - Misery is a good mech. It isn't the best stalker [it's like 3rd IMO] but the stalker is still a good chassis and misery benefits from that. The now bigger side torsos helped to nerf it a bit. So I don't believe it is OP.

HEAVY METAL - THE MUSIC IS OP PLZ NERF. Jokes. Yet again, not the best highlander, but not a bad choice. I have not played it since the slight movement nerf to judge it in recent times. But heavy metal needs no buff and probably no nerf either. You don't see them as much anymore... not sure why.

LA MALINCHE - do not own. Hardpoints are ATTROCIOUS compared to other BNCs. It is basically the same as the 3S, with HALF the energy points? Seriously...

BOAR'S HEAD - Looks cool, runs hot. Needs something to buff it really. It's the most expensive mech in the game and its hardpoints are probably on par if not worse than the AS7-K IMO.

Edited by GrandLocomon, 05 April 2014 - 05:40 PM.

[Reno Blade]

Feel free to add your comments about the new Raven Huginn and Quickdraw IV4 in here.
There is no more space to add them to the poll