79 replies to this topic

[Scurry]

rolly, on 30 March 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

Conversely, as an LRM boater, I find it annoying when a light spams the R key and just cycles through all the mechs he/she sees really fast then runs away. That doesn't seem to help me either because the spotting doesn't take effect. Has anyone else seen this happen?

That's simply an attempt to tell the rest of the team, "Hey, be careful, we have a lot of them here!"

If the scout holds a single lock in that scenario, he'll either be shredded by focus fire, or his teammates will assume there's only one there, get overconfident and rush straight into the enemy trap. There have been a few times when I fell for that - scout targets a single light, so I rush over to assist - and run smack-dab into an assault lance that I didn't know was there.

A good scout will try and circle back after that to actually hold a lock, usually.

[RavensScar]

I lock targets whenever possible, but that's just it - sometimes it isn't possible.

I've had a few matches where all the front-liners have been hugging cover, darting in and out to take shots and avoid return fire while someone sits at the back repeatedly typing 'hit r ffs'. I'm not going to walk out and stare down the entire enemy team just to get locks for someone who keeps swearing at me.

ECM can also be an issue on this front - if you're in a lurm boat asking 'why is no one getting locks' the answer may be 'because they're all hugging a D-DC'.

Edited by RavensScar, 30 March 2014 - 11:02 PM.

[Rushin Roulette]

RavensScar, on 30 March 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

ECM can also be an issue on this front - if you're in a lurm boat asking 'why is no one getting locks' the answer may be 'because they're all hugging a D-DC'.

Id also add to that with.

if you're in a lurm boat asking 'why is no one getting locks' the answer may be
Because you should move your lazy undamaged rear end and get your own damn locks with the aid of TAG so that you can be 100% sure that your lurms will actually hit instead of shooting at 800-1000m and hoping that nothing is in the way.

Ill lock my targets because I want to know where to shoot them, not so that you can maybe hit them without knowing if the target is in the open or not.

[ShinVector]

Scurry, on 30 March 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

That's simply an attempt to tell the rest of the team, "Hey, be careful, we have a lot of them here!" If the scout holds a single lock in that scenario, he'll either be shredded by focus fire, or his teammates will assume there's only one there, get overconfident and rush straight into the enemy trap. There have been a few times when I fell for that - scout targets a single light, so I rush over to assist - and run smack-dab into an assault lance that I didn't know was there. A good scout will try and circle back after that to actually hold a lock, usually.

I cycle R quickly check through the damage and weapon loadout of enemy mechs..
Funny LRM boats think we are always getting locks for them...
Unless you are my buddy on TS.. Nope !

[Wraith 1]

This thread is giving me evil ideas. When I'm in my striker lights, I think I'll start de-locking targets when I see missiles fired at them.

[Androas]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 March 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Maybe because I'm circling my target and I don't want to die from the rain of 'friendly' 'supportive' LRMs hitting me in the back?

Simply a bad excuse, the second LRMs are fired at your target, you get notified about it by a nice symbol above your target, given that you *should* be smart enough to remember, or even see on the minnimap, where your team is located, it is no problem at all, to avoid the fire zone....

[Macksheen]

Sadly, chat is really hard to see. Tunnel vision may make it rough for me to see the minimap at times, but I *never* see company chat when I'm really busy.

That said, I'm an "R" addict and hit it every chance I get.

[Eglar]

Kjudoon, on 30 March 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

2. Kill stealing jerks always wreck my Cbill/XP amounts

just fyi:
Assist usually roughly gives 2000 more c-bills than a kill, since kills at least come with one component destruction, it more or less balances out. so basically 1 kill + 1 component destruction = 1 assist on any mode.

I've had people raging about me in a Light not being able to uphold a targetlock for over 3 seconds - that's usually because holding a target in a Brawling Light mech alone for more than 3 seconds is in most cases suicide at the same time it's enough for me to see how hurt that mech is and what loadout it carries.

Unless you're running with dedicated tag and narc boats LRM-Boats should just opt for whatever the direct-fire mechs are engaging. Currently there are many builds that lose target really fast, e.g. poptart and hit&run lights. If other people in your team can't target it's simply because they can't (e.g. ECM) or because they are bad players since targeting is also needed for themselves, so they can see where to aim. And don't cry if they switch targets to get the most viable enemy, because it's you - the LRM boat - that needs to follow their lead, cower behind their backs and rely on their survival.

While I personally am not a big fan of LRM boats (I am not referring to the LRM physics) what pisses me off most is that LRM pilots expect you to uphold the targetlock for as long as they want and the first ones to cry in-game, asking in caps for longer locks while I lose a leg, an arm just for you - and yet not a word of thanks or appreciation.

If I run a direct-fire build, especially lights, I usually won't switch targets when i see the missile sign on the target even when i fire at the smoking side-torso of a different mech. Not because I love you, it's just because I need you to carry and win the game and that's all there is.

p.s. I personally think that LRM friendly fire is a myth, if the missile boat is more than 300 meters away form his target (where he would likely have direct sight) the LRM trajectory is usually way to high to hit any friendly mech, unless your teammate wanted to make out with your target.

Edited by Eglar, 31 March 2014 - 05:34 AM.

[That Dawg]

See it all the time when I die, and surf the cockpits. fighting a mech and not locking it up.

If for no other reason to give teamers a chance to see what they are up against, what its armed with, any weak spots, and a map ID so maybe they can help


bwahahahhaha..sorry...forgot, talking about pugs

[PhoenixFire55]

Androas, on 31 March 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

Simply a bad excuse, the second LRMs are fired at your target, you get notified about it by a nice symbol above your target, given that you *should* be smart enough to remember, or even see on the minnimap, where your team is located, it is no problem at all, to avoid the fire zone....

When smb is brawling up a target he has other much more important things to worry about than dodging friendly fire. How about a guy who sits 800m away in perfect safety and just spams the fire button worries about not hitting teammates?

[Mankor]

Maybe I'm understanding this all wrong...

When I'm in my light spotting for my team, I see a pack of six mechs, they all show up as little triangles on my screen and minimap. Do they not on yours? Do I have to target them for my team to see them? If it's me an a mech and I'm running in a circle, they will jump in and out of my sensors and that's why the triangle disappears when I'm boating and trying to target.

I have the 360 target mod, but rarely equipt it (siesmic is better). That would make 360 a must on lights, right?

Someone smart correct me.

[PhoenixFire55]

Eglar, on 31 March 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

p.s. I personally think that LRM friendly fire is a myth, if the missile boat is more than 300 meters away form his target (where he would likely have direct sight) the LRM trajectory is usually way to high to hit any friendly mech, unless your teammate wanted to make out with your target.

Good post overall I'll just comment on this part...

It depends greatly on a mech and on a distance of engagement. If you are really close and personal (like 20m close and personal) you'll get hit all the time. If you are in a tall mech (Atlas, Highlander etc.), you'll also get hit quite often.

[Kjudoon]

Rushin Roulette, on 30 March 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

Id also add to that with.

if you're in a lurm boat asking 'why is no one getting locks' the answer may be
Because you should move your lazy undamaged rear end and get your own damn locks with the aid of TAG so that you can be 100% sure that your lurms will actually hit instead of shooting at 800-1000m and hoping that nothing is in the way.

Ill lock my targets because I want to know where to shoot them, not so that you can maybe hit them without knowing if the target is in the open or not.

Actually, TAG is not as effective as you might like to think. I've run a spotter with TAG and had it not work... then I found out the ECM "feature" that jams TAG over 180m at times for as long as 30 seconds and shuts it down completely under 180m. If TAG guaranteed higher hit % of my missiles, I'd get LOS more often. But it doesn't.

BTW the "Get your lazy behind into the fight" is similar to saying an aircraft carrier or missile cruiser should get it's lazy rear into the fight where the enemy can shoot it easy and engage with it's own guns.

[ShinVector]

Kjudoon, on 31 March 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

Actually, TAG is not as effective as you might like to think. I've run a spotter with TAG and had it not work... then I found out the ECM "feature" that jams TAG over 180m at times for as long as 30 seconds and shuts it down completely under 180m. If TAG guaranteed higher hit % of my missiles, I'd get LOS more often. But it doesn't.

BTW the "Get your lazy behind into the fight" is similar to saying an aircraft carrier or missile cruiser should get it's lazy rear into the fight where the enemy can shoot it easy and engage with it's own guns.

You realise TAG has a range of 750M right ?
A TAGGED cannot be disabled by ECM unless you are in the disrupt range of 180M.
TAG + Atermis gives up a 75% lock reduction time and cuts through ECM at long range. What more do you need ?

[B0oN]

Y no hit R ?
Sensory overload in combination with console-style easy mode games for over a decade bears it fruits .

Horray for easy-mode games and the outcome !

No sarcasm was involved in creating this post, people harmed by it are not my problem .

Commence with whatever everybody was doing ...

[Kjudoon]

ShinVector, on 31 March 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

You realise TAG has a range of 750M right ?
A TAGGED cannot be disabled by ECM unless you are in the disrupt range of 180M.
TAG + Atermis gives up a 75% lock reduction time and cuts through ECM at long range. What more do you need ?

Yes, I am very aware of the range and effectiveness of TAG. I also know with tag, it only SPEEDS sensor detection time as on several occasion between 180-750m it has taken me about 30 seconds where it refused to lock giving me that "stay on target" motion with the lock but never quiiiiiiite locking up so I can fire. And yes, the mech I have used it the most on has Artemis.

Also, the more ECM seems to be cumulative against TAG. Flaw? Maybe. Deliberate? Probably with PGI's past attitude towards TAG.

[Scurry]

Mankor, on 31 March 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

Maybe I'm understanding this all wrong...

When I'm in my light spotting for my team, I see a pack of six mechs, they all show up as little triangles on my screen and minimap. Do they not on yours? Do I have to target them for my team to see them? If it's me an a mech and I'm running in a circle, they will jump in and out of my sensors and that's why the triangle disappears when I'm boating and trying to target.

I have the 360 target mod, but rarely equipt it (siesmic is better). That would make 360 a must on lights, right?

Someone smart correct me.

Yes, you must target an enemy mech for your team to see them. Empty triangles (above the mech) are visible to you, but not to your team. Filled triangles are visible to the whole team.

I don't know about the 360 module, though.

[AlmightyAeng]

GI Joe had it right - "Knowing is half the battle."
Knowing WHERE the enemy is in this game is key, at least for me. What modules am I NEVER without? Seismic, and Target Info.

If people aren't hitting R, I want to know if I'm going to bump uglies with a 4-man lance around the corner...and when I start taking fire, I want to know, as fast as I can, whether or not there's an open torso I can take out, or if it's fresh and I need to GTFO.

Even WITHOUT the team advantage of telling your buddies where people are, of raining in missiles on your target, and telling your team if they're damaged, the value to you, as a solo pilot, is enormous.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 31 March 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Kjudoon, on 31 March 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Yes, I am very aware of the range and effectiveness of TAG. I also know with tag, it only SPEEDS sensor detection time as on several occasion between 180-750m it has taken me about 30 seconds where it refused to lock giving me that "stay on target" motion with the lock but never quiiiiiiite locking up so I can fire. And yes, the mech I have used it the most on has Artemis.

Also, the more ECM seems to be cumulative against TAG. Flaw? Maybe. Deliberate? Probably with PGI's past attitude towards TAG.

You can be aiming into a blob of 12 ECM equipped Atlai DDC and you will still be able to lock onto that one target you have tagged, no matter what, TAG is not BAP. 1 BAP only counters 1 ECM. However, 1 TAG completely nulifies the ECM effect of one targeted Mech for everyone on your team so that everyone will be able to target it as well.

As for your analogy of LRM boats being missile an Aircraft carrier or Missile cruiser... those are not even close to what LRM mechs are in BT. LRM mechs are mid range fire support platforms. As per your comparisson, an Aircraft carrier would be a dropship and a missile cruiser would be an Aerofighter or an Artillery platform, not a mech which is built to be a mobile weapons platform. Their advantages are that they can move around so that they can get the optimal firing line which those numpties sitting in the back with their assaults are not doing. If tehy want a lock, then get a propper LRM mech which would be a JJ equipped Medium or Heavy with a top speed of 70+ kph and go get your missile locks yourself with LoS and a guaranteed hit rate.

[Fang01]

Magnakanus, on 30 March 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

Targeting your enemy is essential when you want to be effective on the field. It allows you to find your enemies weak spots and concentrate on those to take your opponent down as quickly as possible.

What I have noticed sometimes, especially during US "prime-time", is that when you target an "easy kill" half your team comes charging over, LRMs or not, to get that kill. It's like fat burger for a starving hobo. During US prime-time I have actually seen people purposely block my lane of fire and risk their back armor to get that kill as well. I wish you could get the achievement "Seriously" multiple times. I can't count how many times I have done top damage and gotten not a single kill because my team tends to only come out of the wood-works when they smell an easy kill, otherwise they are hiding behind terrain.

Fortunately I usually play during European prime-time where the "me me me" factor is significantly reduced.

So, the main reasons people don't use targeting, in order of how common in my view are; Lack of prior experience with targeting and can't be bothered to ask/read/etc., frustration with selfish/opportunistic team members looking to safely profit from your work, "tunnel-vision" in a fight, fear of LRM FF.

All of the above make working with a team even more important. At least team mates will let off when you say "I got this", or will let off of a neutered enemy to help you with a bigger threat, etc.

When PUGing I still use targeting though because despite how frustrating you PUG can act sometimes, targeting still makes you a more effective pilot which helps the team in general.

This phenomena is a large contributor to why pug teams lose games. Mechs should always engage the most dangerous target available and while many assault pilots act like:

That target AINT the legged machine gun locust 600 meters behind the front line

Rushin Roulette, on 30 March 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

Id also add to that with.

if you're in a lurm boat asking 'why is no one getting locks' the answer may be
Because you should move your lazy undamaged rear end and get your own damn locks with the aid of TAG so that you can be 100% sure that your lurms will actually hit instead of shooting at 800-1000m and hoping that nothing is in the way.

Ill lock my targets because I want to know where to shoot them, not so that you can maybe hit them without knowing if the target is in the open or not.

I'm a big believer in the concept of self reliance, if you want a lock or a certain piece of equipment you bring it your damned self. Don't do less than half my score and cry because I refuse to act like your little ecm backpack with tag and bap.

How many times have we seen the stalker missile boat cower at the rear the entire grame just to blow a perfectly winnable match because he was the last guy left and worthless at close range?

ShinVector, on 31 March 2014 - 01:52 AM, said:

I cycle R quickly check through the damage and weapon loadout of enemy mechs..
Funny LRM boats think we are always getting locks for them...
Unless you are my buddy on TS.. Nope !

I always lock my current target so I can see where the breaks in armor are and pour fire into it. Often times I'll cycle to determine which target needs my attention most based on damage, loadout, and occasionally pilot.

Androas, on 31 March 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

Simply a bad excuse, the second LRMs are fired at your target, you get notified about it by a nice symbol above your target, given that you *should* be smart enough to remember, or even see on the minnimap, where your team is located, it is no problem at all, to avoid the fire zone....

A light pilot soloing a heavy or assault will be circling his target and will have much bigger worries than where the team is or the path of incoming indirect. Furthermore the missile barrages tend to increase the closer those targets get to death and often continue to rain down long after the target dies. If you picked the wrong angle on exit you can easily catch a lot of birds in the back from careless stats padding teammates