102 replies to this topic

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Reference having the ability to "get rounds on target" in as few as 5 sec's.

In this universe, the guns that are firing are part of the organization of the Mech Regiment. You Company is only one of 3 of 4 companies in that unit. All the info about where your elements are and what targets you see are being monitored by higher formations, including the Guns and aero space elements.

- The guns are on stand-by for your "arty call", and they are tracking the battle on their gun systems.
- As the "call for fire" arrives it's seconds till there auto systems calculate and fire.

Our current technology for "lobbing" massive explosive rounds is slow and target calculations, arc, travel time follows this same slow route. There are some new very fast systems that are mobile, linked to satellites, GPS, and battle field command systems. These units can be "on the move", receive a call for fire, stop, aim, fire, and be on the move again in as little as 20 sec's. And be "gone" when the "45sec later", counter battery fire arrives at there last location.

If we take these systems and advance them into the future Battle Tech time line, add in future enhancements to the rounds propulsion, (say rocket assist) we could get speeds of 3000-4000m/s. A single multi warhead arty missile could now be "on target" in mere seconds. If we are only talking of one gun firing and not a "few guns online". Considering the actual Gun systems would/could only be a few Km's away, so a rather short flight time for "time on target".

Within the BattleTech universe there are about 4 units that can deliver artillery, Thumper, Sniper, Long Tom, and the Arrow IV. All systems that can be mounted on various chassis and follow the battle. Thus, having your guns nearby and ready should not be a problem. Although none of there systems are listed capable of delivering the damage we currently have in game for the Arty. But the TT damage models may have been "altered" by PGI as they did with Mech armour.

And yes, I still want some warning from either Betty or a verbal cue advising "something" is inbound.

9erRed

[sokitumi]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 April 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Well 2007 had 11 second flight times and we are 1,043 years in the future... 5 seconds is not a huge amount of time compared to 1,000+ years!

Flight time. But actual time from call? + there's a little thing called physics More energy = Velocity which will only make a round go further... or a higher trajectory (more time)... unless you're saying faster speed + lower trajectory, like a gauss round perhaps, but then trajectory is so low that it would hit any hill or obstruction on the way to the target.

Now perhaps an orbital artillery, that just happened to be in passing orbit by chance, dropping gauss speed rounds on targets from outer space could do 5 sec. (as geostationary distances would be way more than 5 sec, and the energy to hover in place in orbit is .. a lot)

[topgun505]

Only certain mechs could use CC in the lore. But I fail to see why we should limit it here. If you wanted, make CC available to be put on ANY mech. So you could still have a whole team bringing arty ... but they'll have to pay for it with tonnage, crit slots, (and their module slots).

Mister Blastman, on 01 April 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

This!

Pay four tons... get big badda boom!

(I can't see this becoming a popular option but maybe I'm wrong. It would be limited use--and restrict it further... only certain chassis-types can use a command console... say mechs that are NOT capable of powerful sniping.)

Edited by topgun505, 02 April 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[El Bandito]

So many military terms being thrown in this thread.

Now I suppose the whole goes-through-all-forms-of-ceilings part of the Artillery/Air Strikes is not due to developer laziness and bad coding, but because those warheads are Bunker Busters? (wanted to say Deep Penetrators, but it just sounds wrong)

Edited by El Bandito, 02 April 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

sokitumi, on 02 April 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Flight time. But actual time from call? + there's a little thing called physics More energy = Velocity which will only make a round go further... or a higher trajectory (more time)... unless you're saying faster speed + lower trajectory, like a gauss round perhaps, but then trajectory is so low that it would hit any hill or obstruction on the way to the target.

Now perhaps an orbital artillery, that just happened to be in passing orbit by chance, dropping gauss speed rounds on targets from outer space could do 5 sec. (as geostationary distances would be way more than 5 sec, and the energy to hover in place in orbit is .. a lot)

you moved the marker sir. I gave you data from an official naval source, you wanna ignore it, thats on you sir.

[Almond Brown]

sokitumi, on 31 March 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

That was their position at the time.

I would be for this idea if certain other conditions people have mentioned were implemented, like a restriction on how many or often they can be called.

Weapons that cost cbills-per-use or mc is a sad precedent in the first place. That they're ridiculously OP at the moment is just extra BS layered on top.

WT.. And how many fewer than 1 of each per player would you like? (doh!)

[Solis Obscuri]

Both are fine, IMO. You just have to move your feet a bit.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Reference the "more speed = longer/further distance":

This is only a concern if the round(s) are dumb fired. Or simply lobbed in the direction of the target.

Even now, we have guided or course correcting arty rounds that use GPS and "target acquisition" to alter their flight path. They steer to the target which allows for both higher or lower trajectories. Most are programmed as they leave the muzzle, and they can be rocket assisted. They were specifically designed to "reduce collateral damage", and only impact where they are directed to. ["smart munitions"]

Again, advance to this BattleTech timeline and we get very fast precision artillery.

Sidenote:
Now if I remember correctly, there was talk from PGI about additional warhead types for Artillery.

- EMP was one that was mentioned, and I would assume that would temporally shut down most sensors systems. Including the ability to call in "off map" munitions, for a set time limit as the systems rebooted.
- Inferno or Napalm was also mentioned, but that brings altogether many additional issues with rendering it and it's effects.

Keep in mind these "time on target" numbers were made up by PGI in there trying to cross over from a TT board game, BattleTech Lore, reference material in the Tech manuals, to a "real time" computer game. And giving the players some method to "reach out" and engage the Enemy, beyond there weapons range. And the fact some of it costs actual Mc as revenue for PGI. [nickel and dimeing us to death, literally and figuratively.]

9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 02 April 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[Almond Brown]

9erRed, on 01 April 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Greetings all,

Yes I agree there should be a verbal warning from "Betty" that detects either incoming aero space or arty munitions in flight.

- It only takes a few seconds to calculate the flight path of arty, lots of time for Betty to advise the pilot.
- Fast air should be detected as they enter there final approach.

From the Lore, the Jaeger Mech was one of the dedicated AAA mech's, so having early warning and target assist would have been quite common. Something we are not seeing or hearing.

Have Betty announce, "Artillery inbound" or "Fast Air Detected", anything verbal when the pilot is "fully engaged" would help.

9erRed

Sadly that would create more confusion that is already in play. Say if we were on the edge of an Arty strike but didn't know it. The Arty lands and we take some limited splash damage if we didn't move.

Now you would have Betty screaming in your ear so what is to keep you from the same scenario, but this Strike Betty causes you to move into the heart of the strike and get stripped, or worse killed.

Unless Betty told you where to run to, she would just be more confusion during an already confused situation.

Edited by Almond Brown, 02 April 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Almond Brown]

3rdworld, on 01 April 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Mechs appear at unlimited range?

Cool.

A Long range Sniper, from behind, would likely cause more damage with a direct Alpha than an Arty strike would do to any single Mech caught not moving within its radius. Why do you try and make it sound like ALL 10 shells land and explode right under your Mech testicles?

Do you even know how the strikes work ffs.?

Edited by Almond Brown, 02 April 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Jonathan Paine]

Few things better expressed my uber-skill in the previous tournament than being on Crimson strait, running up towards kappa, seeing theta flash as being captured and putting a strike ontop of the barely visible flame on the cap point.

Too bad those lights didn't think to look up, huh? Free kill to start the match.

Respect my awesome amount of excess C-Bills.,... I mean, SKILL!

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Reference "Betty and a verbal warning of inbound munitions":

Yes, I can understand there could be unknowns if there was only a verbal warning. So, to off set only having a warning and inadvertently walking into the strike zone, have a pulsed image appear on the HUD showing where Betty indicates the impact at.

Now when you hear the warning, you just need to glance down and move if/as required.

And yes, this will require PGI to work more code into the HUD map. And hopefully bring in some form of HUD map auto tactical zoom for near hazards. Now we have the verbal warning and a representation of where it is.

9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 02 April 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[3rdworld]

Almond Brown, on 02 April 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

A Long range Sniper, from behind, would likely cause more damage with a direct Alpha than an Arty strike would do to any single Mech caught not moving within its radius. Why do you try and make it sound like ALL 10 shells land and explode right under your Mech testicles?

Do you even know how the strikes work ffs.?

1 single round will do more damage than any alpha from any mech. Do you really think there is a "sniper" mech that is throwing out 40 damage pinpoint + 40 damage splash alphas?

I have had a fully armored leg on a highlander knocked off from 1 arty. There is no mech or weapon in the game capable of that over just a few seconds. None

Edited by 3rdworld, 02 April 2014 - 11:33 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

That's not gonna work. People will ALWAYS choose offensive module over defensive one. That's just how it is.

I dont think thats necessarily true. If you had a choice between a module that gave you 5% more damage or a module that reduced incoming damage by 25%, I think thatd be a pretty obvious choice... Whats true is that people will always choose the BETTER of two modules. Not necessarily the more offensive one.

The problem with artillery strikes is that theyre BETTER than other modules. Simple as that. A 40 damage artillery strike should consume 2 module slots. Again... they need to nerf artillery/airstrikes to 20 damage. Then make artillery/airstrike accuracy modules double the damage from 20 to 40. That way it takes up one module slot for a 20 damage artillery and two module slots for a 40 damage artillery/airstrike. Thats more balanced.

Edited by Khobai, 02 April 2014 - 11:36 AM.

[Bront]

Khobai, on 02 April 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

I dont think thats necessarily true. If you had a choice between a module that gave you 5% more damage or a module that reduced incoming damage by 25%, I think thatd be a pretty obvious choice... Whats true is that people will always choose the BETTER of two modules. Not necessarily the more offensive one.

The problem with artillery strikes is that theyre BETTER than other modules. Simple as that. A 40 damage artillery strike should consume 2 module slots. Again... they need to nerf artillery/airstrikes to 20 damage. Then make artillery/airstrike accuracy modules double the damage from 20 to 40. That way it takes up one module slot for a 20 damage artillery and two module slots for a 40 damage artillery/airstrike. Thats more balanced.

Two points here. 1) Offense tends to take precedence over defense. Your example would be one where it would not, but if it was 20% more damage vs 25% damage reduction, most folks would take the increase to damage, since they have more control over damage they do. That's why, if not well balanced, direct damage is usually better than buff/debuff (which you could say is exactly what we're talking about here).

2) Agreed. The issue isn't just that strikes are too powerful, it's that they're too powerful compared to any other options, and powerful enough to be disruptive. In a PUG, winning/losing can be a matter of which side brought more strikes (and since strikes increase the grind, it really is a toss up of if folks carry them or not) and in a 12 man, it's practically airstrike online, and 30 going off in a match isn't unusual. I like your solution which makes them a good option, but not the only good option.

[Peenutts]

I use them to smash poptarts and LRM boats. I dont' see what the problem is. Be aware and dont bunch up. Red smoke, move.

[R Razor]

meteorol, on 01 April 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

This is like the most childish, biased, inconsiderate post i have seen for quite some time now. I was about to make a long post on how wrong you are on so many levels, but you are not even worth 3 minutes of my time.
Put on ignore list, may i never see your incoherent, biased babbling again.

QQ some more because you have no valid counterpoint.

[Steel Claws]

To those of you who say you deserve to get blasted if they drop it behind you - you DO realize that you can drop them behind someone even if your in front of them don't you? I do this quite frequently and it's extremely easy to do besides being extremely effective. Above cockpit level on a Jager is also pretty good as is catching someone hill humping as they come forward.

I agree with the idea of increasing the cool down timer after one has been dropped. The current time is way too short. I'd make it at least a full minute if not two. Not so crazty about the command console thing.

Another route might be to increase the price to 100K C-bills. When you only earn 120K in a drop if you win, makes using them a little less attractive.

[Mystere]

Steel Claws, on 02 April 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Another route might be to increase the price to 100K C-bills. When you only earn 120K in a drop if you win, makes using them a little less attractive.

Sure. But in exchange, bring back repair and rearm and at 100% rates.

[topgun505]

No problems with this. You want to blindly shovel out 1500 LRMs in single game like they're going out of style? No problem. But you have to PAY to reload them all after the game. You may help your team win the game, but you won't make any cbills at the end of the day doing it.

Mystere, on 02 April 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Sure. But in exchange, bring back repair and rearm and at 100% rates.