70 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 April 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

Well, on the VTR and HGN.

Lights and some mediums can still do it post nerf. My Ember pirouettes like a fusion powered ballerina still. Of course, now that I said that, someone will complain that it's totally OP, and the Lights will get JJ nerfed AND MGs will get nerfed even further again.

Because if any weapon or mech beats someone elses, it has to be OP and therefore nerfed!

The Ember is pushing it though. I have never seen a light mech that fights like a medium on top of that huge speed, until the Ember came out.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 April 2014 - 04:24 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 02 April 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

The Ember is pushing it though.

How so?

By being the one well designed Hero in like, forever?
It's still a Light, with Light agility and speed. And if I don't do my part and twist, it still get's insta cored, unlike SDRs (not always, sometimes the HSR/Hit Reg Gods actually frown on Spiders too, but with their unique blend of Kate Moss proportions AND known hit reg issues, they get away with stuff my FS9s never can). I can take a lot of damage, but there is a reason I end most matches missing one or both arms...those delicious shoulder pads!!! YUM!

It's firepower really ain't out of line, and those MGs are awfully useless if you can't find opened armor.

Even when I die to one, I can respect that death a heck of a lot more than from a Spider that I shot 12 times with ac20s and PPCs while it WASN'T moving and might have scored one hit, on the arm. (yet oddly, if I catch a Jenner or Raven or Commando flatfooted, it's crippled or dead 90% of the time. But hey, the Spider jocks all say I can't aim.....even if their Mech is the only one i n the whole game that ever gives me trouble. )

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 April 2014 - 04:21 AM.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 April 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

How so?

By being the one well designed Hero in like, forever?
It's still a Light, with Light agility and speed. And if I don't do my part and twist, it still get's insta cored, unlike SDRs (not always, sometimes the HSR/Hit Reg Gods actually frown on Spiders too, but with their unique blend of Kate Moss proportions AND known hit reg issues, they get away with stuff my FS9s never can). I can take a lot of damage, but there is a reason I end most matches missing one or both arms...those delicious shoulder pads!!! YUM!

It's firepower really ain't out of line, and those MGs are awfully useless if you can't find opened armor.

Even when I die to one, I can respect that death a heck of a lot more than from a Spider that I shot 12 times with ac20s and PPCs while it WASN'T moving and might have scored one hit, on the arm. (yet oddly, if I catch a Jenner or Raven or Commando flatfooted, it's crippled or dead 90% of the time. But hey, the Spider jocks all say I can't aim.....even if their Mech is the only one i n the whole game that ever gives me trouble. )

Ember's firepower is not out of line in terms of short term DPS, but it is out of line in terms of the amount of sustained damage it can dish out thanks to those cool running Quad machineguns on top of Quad energy mounts. Show me another Light mech that can do the same. In terms of durability, it is not as durable as the Raven-3L for example, but speed and JJs make most Ember pilots survive well into the late game, unless some lucky shot tagged it early on.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 02 April 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

Ember's firepower is not out of line in terms of short term DPS, but it is out of line in terms of the amount of sustained damage it can dish out thanks to those cool running Quad machineguns on top of Quad energy mounts. Show me another Light mech that can do the same. In terms of durability, it is not as durable as the Raven-3L for example, but speed and JJs make most Ember pilots survive well into the late game, unless some lucky shot tagged it early on.

I can design Jagers and Cataphracts that can layout superior long term cool firepower to other Heavies, does that make them OP?

And I would say the Jenner-D is in a very similar boat to the Ember. True the 2 missiles generate more heat than MG (because only MG make none), but they are very low heat, whether ran as twin SSRM or SRM4s. And can be very solid at crit seeking. And unlike MGs, are also very useful while death circling other Light Mechs, which are actually the Ember's achilles's heel. Firestarters are really well designed, but aside from Locusts, they are actually overall the worst against OTHER well piloted Lights because they have access to neither SSRMs or ECM (EZMode arguments aside, it's undeniable that SSRMs are still the supreme choice for killing Lights (massive pinpoint alphas aside, since you have to you know, HIT with those, HSR willing, lol and since your average Light in a death circle doesn't really have the option of toting dual gauss into battle).

Firestarters can be excellent carrion birds, and they fight well, but they are, like most mechs in the game eminently counterable. I would say the Ember is simply the Light Hero equivalent to the Ilya or Heavy Metal. It probably is tied with the Jenner as the premiere Light "battler" but at the top of it's weight class, thus with the most tonnage for armor and firepower, that is sort of how it should be.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 April 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

I can design Jagers and Cataphracts that can layout superior long term cool firepower to other Heavies, does that make them OP?

I personally consider Ilya Murometz to be borderline OP too, for its class. In general, I have seen Ilyas and Embers perform far better than others in their respectful class, without the need for additional skill. Sure, there are counter tactics/mechs to them, but this game is not designed for 1v1.

Perhaps if PGI implements Solaris type of gladiatoral match, we might see a different picture.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 April 2014 - 04:47 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 02 April 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

I personally consider Ilya to be borderline OP for its class.

Well then we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

Triple UAC-LB-X can't go that fast, and has huge barn door side torso, and all loadouts are significantly impacted by knuckledragging arm hardpoints. It's a good mech, and one of the best Heroes (of course, since half the heros are outright crap, shocker, that) but it is hardly EZMode (at least post UAC nerf). I love mine, but I gotta work at it to get high scores, especially in a world full of Poptarts and LRMBoats and Wolfpacks, none of which it is well designed to counter.

As long as there are counters for it available to everyone, I can't consider anything terribly OP. The Ember is counterable by other Light Mechs or Streakboat Light Hunters (or just a good shot popping off my leg), the Ilya has a raft of limitations, etc. Those are hardly OP.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 April 2014 - 04:47 AM, said:

Well then we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

Triple UAC-LB-X can't go that fast, and has huge barn door side torso, and all loadouts are significantly impacted by knuckledragging arm hardpoints. It's a good mech, and one of the best Heroes (of course, since half the heros are outright crap, shocker, that) but it is hardly EZMode (at least post UAC nerf). I love mine, but I gotta work at it to get high scores, especially in a world full of Poptarts and LRMBoats and Wolfpacks, none of which it is well designed to counter.

As long as there are counters for it available to everyone, I can't consider anything terribly OP. The Ember is counterable by other Light Mechs or Streakboat Light Hunters (or just a good shot popping off my leg), the Ilya has a raft of limitations, etc. Those are hardly OP.

I am only stating based on what I have seen in my matches. Both the Ilya and the Ember are constantly on top of the score chart, in terms of damage as well as kills. I'm guessing in high Elo groups things are different, but in pugs those two feed on the rest.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 April 2014 - 04:55 AM.

[Remedy 6]

Complaining about the Victor? Come on, have you tried the new champion? It's practically easy mode...

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 02 April 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

I am only stating based on what I have seen in my matches. Both the Ilya and the Ember are constantly on top of the score chart, in terms of damage as well as kills. I'm guessing in high Elo groups things are different, but in pugs those two feed on the rest.

They do well in PUGs and Teams. But they do well in PUGs because they are not designs that are inherently dependant on Teamwork to succeed. The Ilya, for instance is not even the "strongest" of it's Chassis, as the 3D is the top choice for "comp play", since the Poptart meta still trumps all. The Ember may be the best of the Firestarters (which could open another conversation I suppose) but it is balanced by other cbill 35 tonners, the Jenner and Raven-3L that are at least as capable, and and actually 1v1, probably better.

I know in my Ember, I tend to get good kills, but that is because I make it a point to hunt, and flank isolated or overextended fatties. Those LRMboat Stalkers, for instance. I get fat score, because they are singularly poorly designed to handle me (and often I can use them to block LRMs from their teammates too). But if they had a Raven or Jenner or two guarding their Stalkers? Or a Kintaro Streakbboat? I am toast.

Some mechs end up the rides of choice for some players because of playstyle. The Ember is one of those. It's one of the best "Assault Hunters" in the game. But it's one that is easily countered by other SSRMs, to which it essentially has ZERO defense. (AMS is mediocre vs SSRMs at best, and at death circle ranges, useless).

I don't think it's "your Elo vs my Elo", cause we probably are in very similar if not the same bracket. And the way MM works, you get n00bs and Pros both anyhow. Elo, IMO; only truly defines matches in 12 man, as you can control more than 4 mechs Elo in the drop then. (and since 12 man is still dominated by poptarts......ugh!)

[Bishop Steiner]

Remedy 6, on 02 April 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

Complaining about the Victor? Come on, have you tried the new champion? It's practically easy mode...

come at me with it bro. We will see if it's that easy. I'll even let you choose what class I run. EZmode ain't the chassis, it's the competition you face. (and I ain't even close to "top tier", but if you are runnign into EZMode, your comp level has to be total n00bage) VTR is still viable, but it's fall as the premium brawler is complete. (which by definition a mobile, Assault class Brawler should BE the epitome of the role)

It ain't a bad build though. 1 JJ is silly, but to each their own.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 April 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 April 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

They do well in PUGs and Teams. But they do well in PUGs because they are not designs that are inherently dependant on Teamwork to succeed. The Ilya, for instance is not even the "strongest" of it's Chassis, as the 3D is the top choice for "comp play", since the Poptart meta still trumps all. The Ember may be the best of the Firestarters (which could open another conversation I suppose) but it is balanced by other cbill 35 tonners, the Jenner and Raven-3L that are at least as capable, and and actually 1v1, probably better. I know in my Ember, I tend to get good kills, but that is because I make it a point to hunt, and flank isolated or overextended fatties.

Those are some good points. Just to clear up any potential confusions in our debate:

1. I do not think both the Ilya and the Ember are in any form "ezmode". Like other mechs, pilot skills make big difference in effectively using those two. It is just as you said, those two are not inherently dependant on the team to succeed. Therefore, they can contribute significantly to the team to victory without the need for much support--provided the pilot is decent at his job.

2. I also do not think they are blatantly overpowered. They have the same amount of health as the other variants, but the difference lies in the amount of firepower potential those two can bring when compared with the other variants, augmented by their unique loadouts. No other heavy can field triple AC10, and no other light can field quad energy and quad ballistics, with the weight to back them up, for example. Perhaps I am a bit paranoid, but those two are clearly pushing the boundary of firepower limitation in their respectful weight division.

My take on it.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 April 2014 - 05:46 AM.