27 replies to this topic

[990Dreams]

So we all know LRMs are now the main killer. I propose the following to keep LRMs viable, but not make them impossible.

Decrease lock on time

• This allows the LRM Boater to still be able to get off a salvo of LRMs and have a decent chance of hitting, thus keeping LRMs viable.

Decrease Missile Speed (back to what it was)

• This allows the enemy to still be able to avoid missiles. You may think it is possible now, but the AMS sucks and slow Mechs are screwed most of the time (I speak as one who uses lots of slow Mechs).

These solutions allow LRMs to remain viable (you can actually shoot them and have them go somewhere), but also allows slower units to not be screwed over.

The alternative is having only Lights and LRM boats being in matches, since only lights can really dodge the LRMs. I can honestly see few other outcomes.

Conclusion reaching process:

• ECM can be countered by TAGing the ECM unit and blowing it apart.
  
• AMS doesn't work against salvos of more than 10, and the salvos are never only 10.
  
• Slow Mechs can't reach cover very quickly.
  
• Some stages have almost no cover on one side/at all.
  
• If you just hug LRM cover then no one ever moves and the matches get stale.
  
  • If you do move, you get blown open.
• This doesn't make other Mechs non-viable, but it causes them vulnerabilities to LRMs due to the previous reasons.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 01 April 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[Appogee]

Biased poll is biased.

Edited by Appogee, 31 March 2014 - 02:20 PM.

[LauLiao]

DavidHurricane, on 31 March 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

The alternative is having only Lights and LRM boats being in matches, since only lights can really dodge the LRMs. I can honestly see few other outcomes.

Except ECM, AMS, Cover...

[Ovion]

I honestly have no problem with dodging missiles in my lights, and not much harder a time in my 'pults.

AMS is doing its job in stopping some of the missiles (It's not meant to stop all the missiles).

I still have a hard time getting and retaining locks, and people are still using cover and dodging my missiles.
I'm getting roughly 5-10% more effectiveness with my ALRM20s now than prepatch.

However, what I have noticed is significantly less players boating now, and I'm sure something will change with today/tomorrows patch.

They're also planning on bringing the speed of LRMs back to 145 or 150 (I forget which), so we'll likely see a drop again.

But honestly, moaning that the heaviest weapon system in the game, that you also get warned about and have specific counters for, is actually doing damage is pretty dumb.

[990Dreams]

LauLiao, on 31 March 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

Except ECM[1], AMS[2], Cover[3]...

• [1] TAG, where have you been?
  
• [2] AMS sucks against large salvos, have you even played at all?
  
• [3] That's fine and all, except for:
  
  • When the enemy has Lights
    
  • When you're slow
    
  • When there is no cover
    
  • Thus, leaving only fast Mechs being viable to dodge

Appogee, on 31 March 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Biased poll is biased.

Go away unless you plan to actually say something of use. This tells me nothing.

[990Dreams]

Ovion, on 31 March 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

I honestly have no problem with dodging missiles in my lights, and not much harder a time in my 'pults.

AMS is doing its job in stopping some of the missiles (It's not meant to stop all the missiles).

I still have a hard time getting and retaining locks, and people are still using cover and dodging my missiles.
I'm getting roughly 5-10% more effectiveness with my ALRM20s now than prepatch.

However, what I have noticed is significantly less players boating now, and I'm sure something will change with today/tomorrows patch.

They're also planning on bringing the speed of LRMs back to 145 or 150 (I forget which), so we'll likely see a drop again.

But honestly, moaning that the heaviest weapon system in the game, that you also get warned about and have specific counters for, is actually doing damage is pretty dumb.

Perhaps I should clarify:

Almost every match I have been in there are huge salvos of LRMs in the sky, almost always hitting a single player (that is a lot of damage for one player). There is hardly a way to actually not take 40ish damage from one salvo in any Mech that isn't fast. I speak as one who has used big, stompy, armored Mechs. If we had small salvos like before the buff, then it'd be okay. But now there are large, fast moving balls of fiery death almost every match.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 31 March 2014 - 02:38 PM.

[Appogee]

DavidHurricane, on 31 March 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Go away unless you plan to actually say something of use. This tells me nothing.

I'm telling you your poll is biased.

You could also infer that I won't participate in your poll because it's biased.

[990Dreams]

Appogee, on 31 March 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

I'm telling you your poll is biased.

You could also infer that I won't participate in your poll because it's biased.

You tell me that. Nice. anything you want me to change about it to make it non-biased? Or are you just wasting post space?

[TehSBGX]

I'd like to vote on this but I feel the sweet spot for lrm speed would be 150, better than the old 120 but not as crazy as 175.

Edited by TehSBGX, 31 March 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[990Dreams]

TehSBGX, on 31 March 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

I'd like to vote on this but I feel the sweet spot for lrm speed would be 150, better than the old 120 but not as crazy as 175.

I could compromise on 145-150.

[Dragomir Zelenka]

Sigh. I see mediums, heavies and assaults in game in about the same numbers I saw them before. I see non-LRM boat mechs get kills and scores about the same numbers I saw before. This idea that LRMs are everywhere, all the time, in every match laying waste to everything is ridiculous.

I look forward to a couple weeks from now, when people no longer feel the need to wildly exaggerate everything.

[Tesunie]

DavidHurricane, on 31 March 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

You tell me that. Nice. anything you want me to change about it to make it non-biased? Or are you just wasting post space?

Easy. Instead of the "added notes" to make you "not want to screw over such and such", a simple Yes. No. Other. Not "Yes! This idea is great!" "No! If you vote this, you are stupid and you suck." "Other."

Bias poll is bias. Either way, I vote no to your idea, for many reasons. Unto which, I have no need to say why here, as the original post is filled with lies and false information.

[RapidFire7]

I think if the damage was dropped back to just 1 point of damage, it will be the most appropriate nerf. I'm assuming the damage is still 1.1 per missile.

Missiles are meant to be fast. They shouldn't just cruise through the air whilst kicking back, relaxing and smoking a cigarette.

Also I think the default range of AMS needs to be changed to about 1.2 to 1.5 times what it is at the moment. Then you can add the AMS module on your mech if you so desire.

Kinda funny how everyone complains about having to take cover all the time, yet in other first-person shooter games like Modern Warfare, isn't that what you normally do?

[PenitentTangent]

dumb poll is dumb. cut the biased crap.

[Livewyr]

DavidHurricane, on 31 March 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

So we all know LRMs are now the main killer. I propose the following to keep LRMs viable, but not make them impossible.

Decrease lock on time

• This allows the LRM Boater to still be able to get off a salvo of LRMs and have a decent chance of hitting, thus keeping LRMs viable.

Decrease Missile Speed (back to what it was)

• This allows the enemy to still be able to avoid missiles. You may think it is possible now, but the AMS sucks and slow Mechs are screwed most of the time (I speak as one who uses lots of slow Mechs).

These solutions allow LRMs to remain viable (you can actually shoot them and have them go somewhere), but also allows slower units to not be screwed over.

Umm.. yeah. Decreased lock-on time lets them fire salvos more often mechanically. A good missile user would know when to fire based on his odds of hitting... not "when the circle goes red."

Decreased missile speed (back to where it was) ensures they won't hardly hit. There is a reason they boosted the missile speed.

DavidHurricane, on 31 March 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

The alternative is having only Lights and LRM boats being in matches, since only lights can really dodge the LRMs. I can honestly see few other outcomes.

Conclusion reaching process:

• ECM can be countered by TAGing the ECM unit and blowing it apart.
  
• AMS doesn't work against salvos of more than 10, and the salvos are never only 10.
  
• Slow Mechs can't reach cover very quickly.
  
• Some stages have almost no cover on one side/at all.
  
• If you just hug LRM cover then no one ever moves and the matches get stale.
  
  • If you do move, you get blown open.
• This doesn't make other Mechs non-viable, but it causes them vulnerabilities to LRMs due to the previous reasons.

I think if I had to, I could take a stab at what bracket you play in. I'd sooner face a missile boat than a PPC/AC/Gauss meta build... and that's with the current "main killer" weapons.


--------------------------------------

Real solution? Decrease the time for target expiration after losing LoS- a lot. Then cut down the time on Target Decay/Advanced Target Decay modules..

That's a real solution to the real problem of them having lock on you for nearly the entire duration of the missile barrage, regardless of how long they had LoS.

[Tesunie]

Livewyr, on 06 May 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

A good missile user would know when to fire based on his odds of hitting... not "when the circle goes red."

This. So much this.

I've been telling people this, and they don't seem to want to believe me, an LRM user. They don't believe me because "I want to keep my OP LRMs".... Let me tell you... They aren't as OP as you think, especially if you use cover, a couple AMS to eat all my LRMs, or have ECM AND using cover...

LRMs. They do require skill to use well. (Just like any other weapon.)



Personally, what I feel would help balance LRMs farther than they already are is to have the spread increase for indirect fire. This will make LRMs deadlier for direct fire, making it more favorable, make indirect fire (the stem of many complaints) still viable but less effective, and maintain it's current base of balance. This would help keep the weapon viable for use. (I also feel that taret decay could use a little work, as you suggest.)

[BourbonFaucet]

LRM's are homing missiles.

To the kneejerk prone uninformed, anything that's homing clearly MUST take no skill, since aiming a dumbfire weapon requires more skill, line of sight, and so on.

Rather than tell these people "learn to play", or such, I like to tell them play to learn. Try running an LRM boat, or a fighter build with a couple LRM tubes and medium lasers. It's quite difficult to not waste tons of shots due to terrain, lost locks, potato teammates who never press R or switch targets, etc.

LRM's require less skill than aimed weapons, true, but they require way more strategy and thought than the "point and click adventure" direct fire weapons are.

Edited by Techorse, 06 May 2014 - 07:20 AM.

[Tesunie]

Techorse, on 06 May 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

LRM's are homing missiles.

To the kneejerk prone uninformed, anything that's homing clearly MUST take no skill, since aiming a dumbfire weapon requires more skill, line of sight, and so on.

Rather than tell these people "learn to play", or such, I like to tell them play to learn. Try running an LRM boat, or a fighter build with a couple LRM tubes and medium lasers. It's quite difficult to not waste tons of shots due to terrain, lost locks, potato teammates who never press R or switch targets, etc.

LRM's require less skill than aimed weapons, true, but they require way more strategy and thought than the "point and click adventure" direct fire weapons are.

Thus, they require a different set of skills than other weapon types. (They still are out preformed ton for ton on damage and kills by their direct fire, pin point cousins. You actually have to commit more tonnage into LRMs than other weapons, and still have the hard 1000m max and 180m minimum ranges, which same contending weapons tend to have no minimum and a longer maximum range, and travel faster.)

Right now, I think LRMs are fairly well balanced. They could still use some tweaks, but overall I think we found the right speed and damage values. They are enough of a threat now to not be ignored, but not such a threat a single volley can kill you (unlike other weapon combos we all should know by now).

[DEMAX51]

DavidHurricane, on 31 March 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

So we all know LRMs are now the main killer.

We all know that, huh? Because I don't think LRMs are even slightly OP right now, and I know plenty of other players who feel the same way.

Quote

The alternative is having only Lights and LRM boats being in matches, since only lights can really dodge the LRMs. I can honestly see few other outcomes.

Is that why I see little other than PPC/AC5 poptarts, and Assault 'Mechs in virtually every match?

Quote

• ECM can be countered by TAGing the ECM unit and blowing it apart.

While also leaving the 'Mech that is TAGging completely open to return fire - hence risk vs. reward.

Quote

• AMS doesn't work against salvos of more than 10, and the salvos are never only 10.

A single AMS may not shut down a salvo bigger than 10, but when teams work together and actually have multiple AMS capable 'Mechs, I've seen 'em shoot down huge salvos. Teamwork is OP.

Quote

• Slow Mechs can't reach cover very quickly.

And that's why they shouldn't cross open terrain to leave themselves open, or why Lights and Mediums should make taking out enemy LRM boats a priority.

Quote

• Some stages have almost no cover on one side/at all.

I'll grant you that some maps favor LRMs more than others, and some sides of some maps are better than others, but that's just reason to balance the maps better. Not to change LRMS.

Quote

• If you just hug LRM cover then no one ever moves and the matches get stale.

Sure, staying in cover all match is pointless. Which is why you should try to gradually move up, from cover to cover, while your speedier teammates flank their LRM boats.

Quote

• This doesn't make other Mechs non-viable, but it causes them vulnerabilities to LRMs due to the previous reasons.

Mechs should be vulnerable to LRM fire. If they're not, then why even have LRMs in the game at all?

[Bashfulsalamander]

I stopped reading some of these posts after the 6th or 7th post mainly because its always the same butt hurt complaining. First if you cant dodge missiles you suck. I can dodge them just fine in all my variants of Jaeger keep in mind one has a XL 200, which only moves 51 with speed tweak. Secondly if the enemy has Light Mechs that don't make missiles hit you if you are positioned correctly, so cover is still a valid tactic (obviously). If the enemy team knows how to position its LRM's and utilize its Lights then you have been out played. ( I know an actual organized team winning?). ECM works well because not all LRM boats or Lights have tags or enough common sense to tag the one with ECM next to its name.

Edited by Bashfulsalamander, 10 May 2014 - 02:57 AM.