98 replies to this topic

[Mad Strike]

i will take 10 or 15% if they buff again.....but i dont see that coming soon specially with clan mechs coming in 2 months.

[Bishop Steiner]

strikebrch, on 02 April 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Im a veteran victor user and i aprove this nerf.

True be told , the vic was way too agile for its class. Even more agile than a medium...and that should not happen again.

Still using it , still brawling with it.

AC20 + LL + ML + SRM6 + SRM4 and BAP

Which Medium was it more agile then, exactly? A HBK or CN9 with a standard 200? I'm a Medium jock there, chief, and I also drive Victors, because they are like a Big Brother to my ShadowHawks. But even pre nerf, the difference between my Shad and my VTR was hugely noticeable. And my Shads run 280xls, so it's not like I'm comparing a streaking Light Hunter build to it. 89 kph vs 80 for my VTR.

(also, as for my Victor credentials, if one looks at my Dragonslayer, the serial number is 001. Because I have been driving them since literally the moment the servers came online with that patch)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 April 2014 - 07:35 PM.

[Marmon Rzohr]

I have to admit I find the numbers surprising. That's probably because my Victors are elited. With the x2 elite bonus to twist speed the preformance is still good. However, it must be quite nasty stock.

However, the idea was to give mechs with JJs a disadvantage to compensate for the HUGE advantage that JJs give. That's why the nerf was so heavy handed. While i agree there should be some incentive to play non-JJ mechs, they could have buffed the non-JJ mech instead of doing it like this.

Either way, JJ mechs spread damage so well because they have help from bad hit reg. Once that is fixed and the oh so broken movement system is brought into line, they could reduce the change to 10% or remove it.

[Sam Slade]

Marmon Rzohr, on 02 April 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

The HGN is more tanky, but much less mobile. When matches depend on quick reactions or repositioning the HGN will fall flat where the Victors would not. Also the HGN is much worse for poptarting after the nerfs.

mobility is more then raw speed. If you plan your assault(including planning for redeployment to reinforce) then a HGN speed is more then enough... also it has brawl-turn so it's harder to backstab. As to poptarting... who cares, it's a mugs game.

EDIT

strikebrch, on 02 April 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

Dude , theres no logic to follow here except ..

My performance is still the same as before the nerf since im a brawler on victors.

Argument for nerf: I'm leet! look at how leet I am!!!

Argument against nerf: It's ham-fisted, unintuitive, does not adress the primary issues the chassis suffered and seriously undermines the chassis intended purpose.

I vote for the latter(that's the second one strikebrch).

A simple way to implement this nerf would have been to leave the turning circle alone and seriously drop the Victors engine rating... say 325-330 for ordinary Victors and 350-355 for the Dragon Slayer(no, I do not own a Dragon Slayer).

Edited by Sam Slade, 03 April 2014 - 12:24 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Sam Slade, on 02 April 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

A simple way to implement this nerf would have been to leave the turning circle alone and seriously drop the Victors engine rating... say 325-330 for ordinary Victors and 350-355 for the Dragon Slayer(no, I do not own a Dragon Slayer).

That may encourage the meta build though (2 U/AC5, 2 PPC), as with the larger engines you cannot do the double AC5, double PPC setup. 325-330 are ideal engines for doing those builds. With the larger engine you are forced to be a little more creative if you want your speed.

Not arguing for or against it at this point, just pointing out a potential issue.

[DONTOR]

I watched a lone Victor brawl against 4 enemy mechs (Stalker CQB,hunchy,raven,firestarter) kill 2 and completly neuter 1. He was jump rolling damage very effectivly.
I think maybe we just all need to adapt to the situation a little better, give it some time and practice and before long we wont even notice a change.

[Mikros04]

DONTOR, on 03 April 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

I watched a lone Victor brawl against 4 enemy mechs (Stalker CQB,hunchy,raven,firestarter) kill 2 and completly neuter 1. He was jump rolling damage very effectivly.
I think maybe we just all need to adapt to the situation a little better, give it some time and practice and before long we wont even notice a change.

If the Stalker and Hunchback pilots were half as skilled as that Victor pilot, I'm guessing, what you saw would have been very different.

[Gas Guzzler]

DONTOR, on 03 April 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

I watched a lone Victor brawl against 4 enemy mechs (Stalker CQB,hunchy,raven,firestarter) kill 2 and completly neuter 1. He was jump rolling damage very effectivly.
I think maybe we just all need to adapt to the situation a little better, give it some time and practice and before long we wont even notice a change.

But the numbers don't lie. I see what you are saying but those enemies could have sucked, and I'm not saying we need to go all the way back to default, but something like 10% like the HGN would have been good. I think many of us feel that that kind of agility is where the Victor should standout, as opposed to being on par with an Atlas.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 03 April 2014 - 08:59 AM.

[Amsro]

Marmon Rzohr, on 02 April 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

HUGE advantage that JJs give.

This is just down right false, before and after the nerf. You do realize that JJ being such a joke are the reason people use them mostly for jump sniping. Because for nearly ANY other use they are serious junk. Slow, Short Ranged.

If instead they were quicker and more mobility oriented, balance the better JJ with a Max amount of fuel. Add more fuel for tonnage. JJ should really be a boon. Yet another aspect of MechWarrior PGI missed completely by making up their own version.

DONTOR, on 03 April 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

I watched a lone Victor brawl against 4 enemy mechs (Stalker CQB,hunchy,raven,firestarter) kill 2 and completly neuter 1. He was jump rolling damage very effectivly.
I think maybe we just all need to adapt to the situation a little better, give it some time and practice and before long we wont even notice a change.

But we all know matchmaker is trolling likely that was 1 skilled player vs 4 derps newbies, replace any mech for any of the players in that scenario and the result is likely the same.

Deep down I know you know that.

Gas Guzzler, on 03 April 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

But the numbers don't lie. I see what you are saying but those enemies could have sucked, and I'm not saying we need to go all the way back to default, but something like 10% like the HGN would have been good. I think many of us feel that that kind of agility is where the Victor should standout, as opposed to being on par with an Atlas.

I think changes like the victor and highlander (lesser extent) should have been across ALL Assaults and to a lesser extent ALL heavies. Mediums really did need this gap widened. Current problem being one mech was focused on, nil effecting the game overall.

Maybe a test fix before doing all assaults, I mean this whole thread could be avoided if PGI actually communicated their ideas fully.

Maybe we'll get a "tweet" about it.

[Gyrok]

Iqfish, on 02 April 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

The Victor was as agile as a medium, way more agile and fast than many Heavy Mechs and this is not the way an Assault mech is supposed to work.

I still love my DS and my other Victors, just get over it and adapt.

Ermm...in a word NO.

I happen to drive Cataphracts and Victors, and I can easily say my Cataphract doing 80 would out turn and manuever a victor...EASILY. Not even a contest BEFORE the nerf...now, it's almost a joke trying to fend off a light mech in a Victor...you cannot track them at all as you could before, and that is really a travesty. You have to work your tail off to fend off the lights now. Before you had to work at it, but as it sits...lights are now WAY OP.

So, I ask, when is the light mech turning and twist and arm movement nerf of say...20-30% incoming? How about we all admit we know the answer...?

PGI will not stop until a single Jenner can solo an entire team of heavy/assault mechs...this is rubbish.

[Gyrok]

DONTOR, on 03 April 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

I watched a lone Victor brawl against 4 enemy mechs (Stalker CQB,hunchy,raven,firestarter) kill 2 and completly neuter 1. He was jump rolling damage very effectivly.
I think maybe we just all need to adapt to the situation a little better, give it some time and practice and before long we wont even notice a change.

Umm...those pilots were terrible then...

Here is 1 for you, I watched a single spider kill 5 mechs to end a match last night...3 of which were Victors with good health...is the spider OP? (of course, it is a light mech, which in TT had ~10-20% chance to kill one and 0 chance to kill 2, much less 5, in MWO they are OP)

[Iqfish]

Gyrok, on 03 April 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Ermm...in a word NO.

I happen to drive Cataphracts and Victors, and I can easily say my Cataphract doing 80 would out turn and manuever a victor...EASILY. Not even a contest BEFORE the nerf...now, it's almost a joke trying to fend off a light mech in a Victor...you cannot track them at all as you could before, and that is really a travesty. You have to work your tail off to fend off the lights now. Before you had to work at it, but as it sits...lights are now WAY OP.

So, I ask, when is the light mech turning and twist and arm movement nerf of say...20-30% incoming? How about we all admit we know the answer...?

PGI will not stop until a single Jenner can solo an entire team of heavy/assault mechs...this is rubbish.

The difference between me and you is, I was laying out my view on things and giving you all the advice to adapt to the changes.

You are telling us your opinion and concluding, that Lights are OP and need to be nerfed. Which is not cool, because you didn't even ask us all, before demanding a "nerf".
DONTOR is absolutely right by saying that the torso twisting and arm movement speed compared with the ability of equipping JumpJets made that 'Mech superior to any other Assault 'Mech.

Please remember, if you are talking about things like this:
A ) You have to be an experienced pilot with the chassis you are talking about, PRIOR to the nerf.
B ) You have to test the changes to the chassis you are talking about in more than a few rounds.
C ) You have to COMPLETELY leave out your personal feelings or even hurt feelings (Because you are not superior anymore), if you want to make a general plea about "Nerfing" Lights or even "un-nerfing" the chassis again.

Now I'll lay out my opinion again:

If you REALLY think that Lights are OP in any way and a single Jenner can take out 4 Assault 'mechs, I invite you to go ahead, do it and capture yourself doing it.
If you really manage to kill 4 Assaults in a single Jenner, my hat goes off to you and I'll be forever silent in this discussion.

Edited by Iqfish, 03 April 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Nauht, on 02 April 2014 - 01:36 AM, said:

They're not going to do it. This is the same company that decided to put the DS on sale one week prior to the nerf try and milk as much out of it as they could.

They knew full well no-one would touch the DS after the nerf and they put it up for sale with the full knowledge of what they planned to do. Just plain underhanded and unethical, to put it in polite language.

You look over the history of nerfs after sales and you'll find this isn't the first time they pulled this (nope ain't going to spend hours pulling them out of other threads).

Simple way of dealing with it is to buy nothing , as they have proven time and time again to be completely untrustworthy.

The other side of the tale is, if you don't hand over money to these second hand car dealers you haven't got a game.

[C E Dwyer]

Gyrok, on 03 April 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Umm...those pilots were terrible then...

Here is 1 for you, I watched a single spider kill 5 mechs to end a match last night...3 of which were Victors with good health...is the spider OP? (of course, it is a light mech, which in TT had ~10-20% chance to kill one and 0 chance to kill 2, much less 5, in MWO they are OP)

The Victor should get some of it agility back, but not all, they really beefed up the awesome's of it was extremely high for an assault I forget, because its not a good mech, though I like piloting them from time to time, after the Awesome it should be the most agile assault, it isn't, its worse than the stalker.

Yes its another fail on PGi's part however.

The Victor is a noob mech since patch so they will crumble in great numbers

[Gas Guzzler]

Amsro, on 03 April 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

I think changes like the victor and highlander (lesser extent) should have been across ALL Assaults and to a lesser extent ALL heavies. Mediums really did need this gap widened. Current problem being one mech was focused on, nil effecting the game overall.

Maybe a test fix before doing all assaults, I mean this whole thread could be avoided if PGI actually communicated their ideas fully.

Maybe we'll get a "tweet" about it.

I feel that it is fair to impart a slight adjustment (10% like the HGN) to twist speed and such for heavy/assault mechs with jump jets as a way to bring them down a notch, but I don't mind heavies/assaults with enormous engines that can have a reasonable amount of agility. It is not easy to take down a good light pilot, which is fine, but with all the tonnage spent on engine, it makes sense for the big guys to be somewhat responsive.

I mean I run one of my Griffins with a XL 330 and it is SUPER twitchy. I can offer numbers tonight if you guys ask but man, definitely a wide gap between that and my Dragon Slayer pre-nerf with an XL 330.

[Shae Starfyre]

I have mixed feelings.

1.) I paid real money for the DS and it is not what it was before (subject to change concepts not-with-standing, I feel cheated).

2.) As a pure Lone Wolf, Pugging it, there were times that I could pull off those 4-6 kills in the DS and I know for a fact it was due to its high agility (I had nearly a 700 matches in the DS before the reset, a 1000 in Lyr, and another 1000 in a DDC).

3.) Because of my experiencing in the Lyr and the DDC Atlas, the nerf certainly took the DS outside the scope of being an effective brawler (the way I used it - XL 375, 1 LBX, 3 ML, 1 MG and 2 Streaks, BAP, 3 JJ...82.5 kp/h and it was freaky agile).

500-1000 damage games consistently, 1-3 kills on average per game until the MM decided I needed to loose for a while

I guess the point is, now, even with this highly agile configuration, which I later augmented to a 385 XL, I still can't track a light when it goes for a flank on me; this is incredibly deficient to me for what this mech was advertised as, and not to mention the huge tonnage use in JJ and Engine with a huge lack of firepower (again, there are better brawler configurations, but this one was mine, and prior to the nerf, it worked) was my balancing factor. If I was not on my game, I was shot down quick (feather those JJ's, turn, twist, bob and weave).

Now, it is a pop-tarter; so I tried that for a bit (I can't aim, too old, that is why I used spread weapons); the problem here came to me too; sure, pop up, fire, all good, until you were run down by mediums and lights.

Before, the DS pilot could chain fire (which I have done) my pop tart weapons into a feasible brawl scenario and maybe get out of dodge or defend myself adequately. Now, you can't bring the weapons to bear quick enough regardless of the JJ and not locking the arms (sometimes you can time it right, but it is a work out and a few games of white knuckling it gets old fast).

This is why I think DS Pop tarts are fading for Highlanders and the Cataphract 3D because they are more agile to deal with the impending brawl.

DS has been regulated to being piloted like an Atlas to some degree; with the ability to get from one place to another quickly, but requiring a fair amount more caution and you require your team more (hrm).
Anyways. If everything as was pointed out by those who crunched the numbers, the nerf was half, then we would be in a good place.

I still pilot the DS looking to find ways for my build to remain effective, but I certainly am more careful and thoughtful before engaging (hrm).

Thus the mixed feelings. Yes, it doesn't feel or look right on paper to have been nerfed so hard, but, it has curbed my cavalier tactics to be more team focused by using it. However, on the flip side, and not necessarily supporting any argument against the nerf, is that it draws me into using more heavies (chassis diversification on the field); however, and the roundabout starts again, it leaves the DS as being not as favorable as other Assault Chassis (causing more desire to push towards other assaults that do their job better - min maxing the playing field).

All-in-all, and this has nothing to do with the 3/3/3/3 drop module (but will indirectly affect it as well), these kind of changes is such a broad stoke without the wither all to make sure to collect data on performance with the notion to be ready to tweak, further alienates more and more chassis from being used driving players to choose the best chassis of their class.
This does not sound like a good thing. All mechs should be that quirk-wise, component-wise, or what have you, it calls to certain people, so that diversity is maintained.

I feel confident that when the 3/3/3/3 module drops, and aside from start mechs, less and less visibility of harshly nerfed mechs will make the cut and will be dust.

I hope, in the future, the nerf the Victor experienced helps guide PGI into right action.

The thing is, even though the DS was freaky agile, those great games in my particular build (the one that called to me) was a rarity and probably was because my ELO was lower; once my ELO raised, I became just another mech on the field ready to die to coordinated foes, but I felt like I was earning what ever I got. Now, I am not earning at all in the DS - thus making the 30% cbill boost akin to not having it all.

Edited by Aphoticus, 03 April 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Marmon Rzohr, on 02 April 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

I have to admit I find the numbers surprising. That's probably because my Victors are elited. With the x2 elite bonus to twist speed the preformance is still good. However, it must be quite nasty stock.

However, the idea was to give mechs with JJs a disadvantage to compensate for the HUGE advantage that JJs give. That's why the nerf was so heavy handed. While i agree there should be some incentive to play non-JJ mechs, they could have buffed the non-JJ mech instead of doing it like this.

Either way, JJ mechs spread damage so well because they have help from bad hit reg. Once that is fixed and the oh so broken movement system is brought into line, they could reduce the change to 10% or remove it.

be an idea I suppose, if the JJS themselves hadn't also been so heavily nerfed 8a nerf I agree with, BTW). Now the VTR has been double nerfed, kind of like how they keep piling Nerfs on PPS, because *gasp* people keep using the "most effective weapon on the battlefield" (how dare it be effective, albeit, heavy and uber hot!)

[Amsro]

Cathy, on 03 April 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

The Victor is a noob mech since patch so they will crumble in great numbers

I'm not sure about "noob" mech but it was for sure one of the top poptart mechs, even still it was my "worst" of all 4 Assault mechs I own. Still good by its own merit but Battlemaster, Highlander and Atlas all netted me more wins/kills. I don't think it was ever the top Assault, just the top Assault Dual AC/5 + Dual PPC mech. Probably still is.

[Bishop Steiner]

Amsro, on 03 April 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

I'm not sure about "noob" mech but it was for sure one of the top poptart mechs, even still it was my "worst" of all 4 Assault mechs I own. Still good by its own merit but Battlemaster, Highlander and Atlas all netted me more wins/kills. I don't think it was ever the top Assault, just the top Assault Dual AC/5 + Dual PPC mech. Probably still is.

since all the nerfs reduce it's ability to brawl far more than the ability to poptart, yeah, pretty much.

[JayVrb]

The Atlas is supposed to be a lumbering weapons platform, the Victor is not. Point and fact. I understand widening the gap between Mediums and Assaults, but this is an unreasonable method. Especially since it does not at all address the problem with pop-tart builds, it flat out encourages them.