347 replies to this topic

[Vercinaigh]

The manuvering ability of the Victor was due to a MASSIVE engine....not any inherently higher rating....I don't think it's fair to gimp a mech simply because the engine the majority choose to put in it...there are people out there running standards that now would be better served in any other assault...especially a highlander, which ironically, now has a faster torso twist...this is like fixing a flat tire by replacing the engine...

[Maggiman]

@Ancih
Okay i should have stated that my answer was primarily at the OP. What itched me especially was the (Im paraphrasing) "You nerfed the Mech i bought a while ago, i wont buy anything anymore" There is not much constructive about it and the latter half is about weapon balance in general so again, wont do any constructive about the viktor.
Additionally, there have been a lot of those threads already. 1 or 2 additonal threads surely benefit discussion or say, when the original thread is old...But the ..like 5th or so post in 2 days? Thats exessive (I haven't checked, feel free to correct me)

Edited by Maggiman, 06 April 2014 - 10:17 AM.

[xe N on]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Not really. It's not terribly difficult to build a quick victor that still has decent cooling, and 80kph speed. AND it will still have jump jets afterwards.
2 LL, 1 PPC, 1 AC10 is a fair bit of punch.
Or 2 PPCs, 1 AC10 and a ML.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d3eb6056f34655a

You aren't going to be building a Kitty cat or Cataphract with that kind of mobility and firepower and still have cooling. -maybe- a kitty cat. But definitely not a Cataphract without going XL, and becoming a Death Trap in the process.

Why would a Phract be a dead trap with XL, while a Victor wouldn't? The side torso of the Victor are even larger, because the mech itself is bigger.

Beside, with 78 kph you won't outmaneuver any mech at range. My DS currently run with a XL325 at 73 kph and the difference to 78 kph is not much. But even my SDH with 100 kph and smaller silhouette can't avoid beeing hit. And in close combat your PPC aren't very reliable.

Edited by xe N on, 06 April 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Mavairo]

xe N on, on 06 April 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Why would a Phract be a dead trap with XL, while a Victor wouldn't? The side torso of the Victor are even larger, because the mech itself is bigger.

Actually the STs on the Victor are much smaller in proportion to the rest of the mech than they are on the Cataphract. the ST on a victor are it's Pecs essentially. where the ST of a Cataphract is much longer, and just as wide at it's widest point on the Victor's. So you have more than double the surface area with how the hit boxes work out.

[LawDawg]

Maggiman, on 06 April 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

@Ancih
Okay i should have stated that my answer was primarily at the OP. What itched me especially was the (Im paraphrasing) "You nerfed the Mech i bought a while ago, i wont buy anything anymore" There is not much constructive about it and the latter half is about weapon balance in general so again, wont do any constructive about the viktor.
Additionally, there have been a lot of those threads already. 1 or 2 additonal threads surely benefit discussion or say, when the original thread is old...But the ..like 5th or so post in 2 days? Thats exessive (I haven't checked, feel free to correct me)

Posts about the Victor are non exist, LRM post rule the forums.Maybe you haven't been keeping up on current affairs.

What "Itched" my butt is your "QQ" about the amount of threads, I Think, This may me be first (about said topic) till you started you started you little whine.

Stand down. (I know you wont)

[Appogee]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 01 April 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

I recently emailed the support email account ... their response to the email essentially told me to make a post in this forum. So here we go.

LOL. As if the developers even read what is posted in this forum, let alone take action on the basis of what is posted!

Nice trolling, Support.

[LawDawg]

Ya, I Found it funny they want us to blow up the forums also.

[xe N on]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Actually the STs on the Victor are much smaller in proportion to the rest of the mech than they are on the Cataphract. the ST on a victor are it's Pecs essentially. where the ST of a Cataphract is much longer, and just as wide at it's widest point on the Victor's. So you have more than double the surface area with how the hit boxes work out.

But apperently large enough to get shot even if torso twisting. It's not that rare I die to loss of the right side torso in my Victor.

[Mavairo]

xe N on, on 06 April 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Why would a Phract be a dead trap with XL, while a Victor wouldn't? The side torso of the Victor are even larger, because the mech itself is bigger.

Beside, with 78 kph you won't outmaneuver any mech at range. My DS currently run with a XL325 at 73 kph and the difference to 78 kph is not much. But even my SDH with 100 kph and smaller silhouette can't avoid beeing hit. And in close combat your PPC aren't very reliable.

Actually at 78 KPH you should have more than enough speed to either hit and fade, or get -past- a slower (say 60 to 68 kph assault mech) and cause them to either turn to face you (and get shredded by your allies) or take it from behind.

Most close range engagements in mechwarrior, are at over 150 meters. Anyone that -can- get close enough to hurt you is going to feel it from your allies or by you as they come in, and everyone else? Well they're going to get nail drived to death. And if you have a preference for brawling you can always swap them to LLs. Or LPLs for that matter.

There are worlds difference between a Not Awesome moving at 65 (with speed tweak) and a Victor. The Pretty Baby is the only Not Awesome capable of moving as quickly as a victor that's remotely viable. And even then you better not run an XL, since there are entire mechs with all three torsos figured in that are smaller than the STs of a Not Awesome. Which ruins it's payload carrying -or- it's speed.

The same applies to the Battle ****, only at least the BattleTurd has enough energy hardpoints that at least you can build a giant sized hunchback esque build with it and keep some mobility with a standard engine.

The only mech in the 80 to 85 ton class that's comparably strong to the Victor is the Stalker. Because of it's raw firepower.

Even just going from 65 to 71 is a pretty significant jump in closing with the enemy and managing them in close combat, or in repositioning. Let alone going to 78. Sure the Kitty Cat in that particular build is within 3kph. But it's also a hell of alot hotter of a build to be running, and there's hardly ever any shortage of Hot Map Drops. And it still lacks JJs which add quite abit more Effective Speed to the mech.

Edited by Mavairo, 06 April 2014 - 11:16 AM.

[Mavairo]

xe N on, on 06 April 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

But apperently large enough to get shot even if torso twisting. It's not that rare I die to loss of the right side torso in my Victor.

I can't tell you the last time I got popped by ST in a Victor. I've lost armor there once or twice, but never a full pop. Usually when I do it's because I did something stupid like standing dead forward too long. The arms and CT really do block most of the ST especially at full tilt traveling laterally to the enemy's fire.

It's just like a Dragon. It happens sometimes, and guys that pilot Dragons know the moments when the ST is at it's most dangerous so we've an easier time picking off other Dragon pilots with ease compared to everyone else. (and hey if we miss we'll probably get the Cannon Arm anyway, or close to it)

But it happens no where NEAR as often as it does with a Cataphract. I can pick the ST off a Cataphract who's twisting and traveling at speed or not, regardless at 700 meters away reliably.

[xe N on]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

I can't tell you the last time I got popped by ST in a Victor. I've lost armor there once or twice, but never a full pop. Usually when I do it's because I did something stupid like standing dead forward too long. The arms and CT really do block most of the ST especially at full tilt traveling laterally to the enemy's fire.

According to this: http://mwomercs.com/...x-localisation/

The side torso of the Phract and the Victor are equal at size. However, you can hit the Phracts side torso more easily from the side then the Victors.

With the recent patch the twisting speed of the Victor is so low that at least I cannot torso twist reliable anymore. It's simply too slow. Because I play preferably my Victors or my Hawks, I can quite feel the difference. In my Hawks I always loose arms or even legs first, befor side torso or center torso gets blown off (Beside rare events I get an alpha in the back). In my Victor, escpacially after patch I have quite a problem to migrate damage to the arms or other parts of the mech. It's much more like playing my Atlas - however, my Atlas has more fire power and don't run XL ...

I could switch from 2xAC5 to AC10 to increase the engine from 325 to 350 and hope that torso twist rate becmes sufficient again. However, this cost me DPS, which is already low at the Victor compared to trippe UAC or similar builds.

Since I also play sometimes the accou of a friend of mine running some Jagermechs, I come to the impression that do have to work more hard in my Victors then in the most FotM mechs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

I can't tell you the last time I got popped by ST in a Victor. I've lost armor there once or twice, but never a full pop. Usually when I do it's because I did something stupid like standing dead forward too long. The arms and CT really do block most of the ST especially at full tilt traveling laterally to the enemy's fire.

It's just like a Dragon. It happens sometimes, and guys that pilot Dragons know the moments when the ST is at it's most dangerous so we've an easier time picking off other Dragon pilots with ease compared to everyone else. (and hey if we miss we'll probably get the Cannon Arm anyway, or close to it)

But it happens no where NEAR as often as it does with a Cataphract. I can pick the ST off a Cataphract who's twisting and traveling at speed or not, regardless at 700 meters away reliably.

I seem to lose my side torso more often in my Victor than in my Cataphracts. This might be because more people expect to see Victors with XLs then Cataphracts, but even if that is the case, all the more reason not to gimp the Victor.

Yes it can go fast because its 80 tons and lets you dump alot of tons into a big engine, but that doesn't mean it should have to torso twist as slow as an Atlas. A hair slower then a Battlemaster with the same engine is where it should be IMO, just because it has Jump Jets.

Maggiman: 1000th thread? Please.. This is one of the first threads I have seen, it has just gone on for a long time.

[Mavairo]

xe N on, on 06 April 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

According to this: http://mwomercs.com/...x-localisation/

The side torso of the Phract and the Victor are equal at size. However, you can hit the Phracts side torso more easily from the side then the Victors.

With the recent patch the twisting speed of the Victor is so low that at least I cannot torso twist reliable anymore. It's simply too slow. Because I play preferably my Victors or my Hawks, I can quite feel the difference. In my Hawks I always loose arms or even legs first, befor side torso or center torso gets blown off (Beside rare events I get an alpha in the back). In my Victor, escpacially after patch I have quite a problem to migrate damage to the arms or other parts of the mech. It's much more like playing my Atlas - however, my Atlas has more fire power and don't run XL ...

I could switch from 2xAC5 to AC10 to increase the engine from 325 to 350 and hope that torso twist rate becmes sufficient again. However, this cost me DPS, which is already low at the Victor compared to trippe UAC or similar builds.

Since I also play sometimes the accou of a friend of mine running some Jagermechs, I come to the impression that do have to work more hard in my Victors then in the most FotM mechs.

The jump in speed you'll get is worth the dps cost. I haven't really suffered overly much from the nerf aside from the hit to JJ turning that came with the JJ changes. The way I look at AC10 vs 2X AC5 on the Victor is this. To run 2 AC5s you are taking an Opportunity Cost, by not having a larger engine (and usually more HS too), which is costing you better shooting opportunities (ie being in the right place to get a better shot on a vulnerable component). Now something like a cataphract, (though with the phract I prefer seeing a big 20 in there but that's another mech and debate entirely) it's more workable since the mech isnt' exactly mobile in it's weight class and it's STs are much easier to hit due to how they are positioned on the mech in relation to the CT and arms.

And other assaults like the Highlander of course can run 2 AC5s and not really lose out on the mobility edge cause they are Torpid anyway. if that makes sense.

Victor does take some work compared to the other high end mechs, pretty comfortably but that's always been the case. But it's still not BattleTurd and Not Awesome bad by ANY means. THOSE two are mechs that are in serious need of attention and reworking. The Awesome so much so that, I'd fully understand if the devs decided to Scrap the Awesome and release it (with an entirely new model) some time down the road.

Edited by Mavairo, 06 April 2014 - 11:47 AM.

[Ancih]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Not really. It's not terribly difficult to build a quick victor that still has decent cooling, and 80kph speed. AND it will still have jump jets afterwards.
2 LL, 1 PPC, 1 AC10 is a fair bit of punch.
Or 2 PPCs, 1 AC10 and a ML.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d3eb6056f34655a

You aren't going to be building a Kitty cat or Cataphract with that kind of mobility and firepower and still have cooling. -maybe- a kitty cat. But definitely not a Cataphract without going XL, and becoming a Death Trap in the process.

Case in point Kitty Cat
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eccf01d9cc9531f

It's both slower AND hotter. And not as armored, AND lacks JJs. So... what exactly is the K2 winning at? It's a heavy sure. But it's slower, hotter, not as armored, and lacks Lateral travel with it's Cannons.

That's because of their relative tonnage and max engine size difference, you could do the same comparison with a Quickdraw vs Hunchback or with a Dragon vs Centurion and get the same "hey this mech is quicker and stronger" observation for the same reasons...

Edited by Ancih, 06 April 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[aniviron]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

The jump in speed you'll get is worth the dps cost. I haven't really suffered overly much from the nerf aside from the hit to JJ turning that came with the JJ changes. The way I look at AC10 vs 2X AC5 on the Victor is this. To run 2 AC5s you are taking an Opportunity Cost, by not having a larger engine (and usually more HS too), which is costing you better shooting opportunities (ie being in the right place to get a better shot on a vulnerable component). Now something like a cataphract, (though with the phract I prefer seeing a big 20 in there but that's another mech and debate entirely) it's more workable since the mech isnt' exactly mobile in it's weight class and it's STs are much easier to hit due to how they are positioned on the mech in relation to the CT and arms.

And other assaults like the Highlander of course can run 2 AC5s and not really lose out on the mobility edge cause they are Torpid anyway. if that makes sense.

Victor does take some work compared to the other high end mechs, pretty comfortably but that's always been the case. But it's still not BattleTurd and Not Awesome bad by ANY means. THOSE two are mechs that are in serious need of attention and reworking. The Awesome so much so that, I'd fully understand if the devs decided to Scrap the Awesome and release it (with an entirely new model) some time down the road.

To be fair, if the giant shoulder pauldrons on the Awesome counted as arm like UI 1.5 showed them, that would pretty much fix all of the Awesome's hitbox problems, combined with moving the sides in towards the center a little bit. It's not like the Awesome has tons of arm mounted weapons anyway.

But yeah, the 80-85 ton bracket is pretty ****** now. Even if they fixed the Awesome's hitboxes, its hardpoints, tiny engine sizes, and awful accel/decel rates kill it. The Battlemaster is too wide, though at least it has decent hardpoints. The non-3F Stalkers aren't really worth bothering with because of the gimped torso twist, and even the 3F is a bit clunky. The only one worth taking was the Victor, and that was really only due to its agility. Unfortunately, it now has the same agility stats as an Atlas, or highlander, so there's really absolutely no reason not to just take one of those instead, especially with 3/3/3/3 coming up, meaning your Victor will have to face off against a heavier mech.

That said, just about every assault needs to be less agile, they're all too fast. If they were all slower, but the Victor retained its movement advantage proportional to the other assaults, that would be fine. The Victor needs to be more agile than the competition to be useful, but having it as agile as it was makes it too fast. For once, Paul was right about something, and that's that it was too nimble. The solution is to slow down all the assaults, not just one of them.

[Mavairo]

Ancih, on 06 April 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

That's because of their relative tonnage and max engine size difference, you could do the same comparison with a Quickdraw vs Hunchback or with a Dragon vs Centurion and get the same "hey this mech is quicker and stronger" observation for the same reasons...

Except in quite a few cases it's entirely possible to build a Hunchback or Centurion that are considerably better at fighting than either of those mechs.

Particularly Centurion vs Dragon. A Cent brawler/slasher is much more effective in it's role than the Dragon tends to be as it tends to be able to spread damage much more effectively. The Dragon tends to make a better flanker since at Minimum it should be moving at 89 kph.

[XX Sulla XX]

Right now a Phract 3D is much more agile than a Victor. The JJ turning speed has has barely been touched so you can still turn in the air like a Victor used to. Right now I am running an AC20 and ERPPC with the largest engine possible (Standard). So it will go just over 80kph with a standard engine. And turns great both on the ground or with jump jets. I wish the Victor still handled like a mech that is only 10 tons more.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 06 April 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[Ultimax]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Not really. It's not terribly difficult to build a quick victor that still has decent cooling, and 80kph speed. AND it will still have jump jets afterwards.
2 LL, 1 PPC, 1 AC10 is a fair bit of punch.
Or 2 PPCs, 1 AC10 and a ML.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d3eb6056f34655a

You aren't going to be building a Kitty cat or Cataphract with that kind of mobility and firepower and still have cooling. -maybe- a kitty cat. But definitely not a Cataphract without going XL, and becoming a Death Trap in the process.

Case in point Kitty Cat
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eccf01d9cc9531f

It's both slower AND hotter. And not as armored, AND lacks JJs. So... what exactly is the K2 winning at? It's a heavy sure. But it's slower, hotter, not as armored, and lacks Lateral travel with it's Cannons.

Of course its slower and hotter, you gimped the rest of the build to stuff in the same amount of firepower of an 80 ton Assault mech onto a 65 ton heavy.

Try to put the same firepower of a Victor that you have on a Banshee and also give that Victor a STD engine and watch how fast it suddenly has a poor comparison.

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Actually the STs on the Victor are much smaller in proportion to the rest of the mech than they are on the Cataphract. the ST on a victor are it's Pecs essentially. where the ST of a Cataphract is much longer, and just as wide at it's widest point on the Victor's. So you have more than double the surface area with how the hit boxes work out.

I can say that in the process of mastering my 3 cataphracts, the number of side torso deaths are probably 1 out of every 20.

I run XLs almost exclusively on my IM and 3D builds.


A lot of your posts basically amount to trying to rationalize what is a completely irrational nerf.

There is a logical progression to how torso pitch/yaw and arm speeds scale by tonnage and engine and the Victor and Highlander no longer fit the rest of that.

http://bit.ly/1q2vBgs.

Should we make it so some 35 ton lights don't get the same linear speed from the exact same engine as a different 35 ton light because one has jump jets and favorable hitboxes?


No, because that would be poor design.

All they need to do is bring the Victor in roughly between the Awesome and the Battlemaster/Stalker on that chart, and the Victor would then be in line with the core design while letting the Awesome retain a few favorable quirks to help it out.

Are jump jets an advantage?

Of course, but they are balanced by their tonnage and slot requirements and if they are not balanced by that then you attack the problem there.

That 1 Jump Jet in your build? It's enough to clear some rubble, and be a bit more mobile - post JJ nerf if you want real vertical mobility you want 2 to 4 JJs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2014 - 01:34 PM.

[Mavairo]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Of course its slower and hotter, you gimped the rest of the build to stuff in the same amount of firepower of an 80 ton Assault mech onto a 65 ton heavy.

Try to put the same firepower of a Victor that you have on a Banshee and also give that Victor a STD engine and watch how fast it suddenly has a poor comparison.








I can say that in the process of mastering my 3 cataphracts, the number of side torso deaths are probably 1 out of every 20.

I run XLs almost exclusively on my IM and 3D builds.


A lot of your posts basically amount to trying to rationalize what is a completely irrational nerf.

There is a logical progression to how torso pitch/yaw and arm speeds scale by tonnage and engine and the Victor and Highlander no longer fit the rest of that.

http://bit.ly/1q2vBgs.

Should we make it so some 35 ton lights don't get the same linear speed from the exact same engine as a different 35 ton light because one has jump jets and favorable hitboxes?


No, because that would be poor design.

All they need to do is bring the Victor in roughly between the Awesome and the Battlemaster/Stalker on that chart, and the Victor would then be in line with the core design while letting the Awesome retain a few favorable quirks to help it out.

Are jump jets an advantage?

Of course, but they are balanced by their tonnage and slot requirements and if they are not balanced by that then you attack the problem there.

That 1 Jump Jet in your build? It's enough to clear some rubble, and be a bit more mobile - post JJ nerf if you want real vertical mobility you want 2 to 4 JJs.

If you haven't noticed there were people claiming you could cram the exact amount of firepower and do the exact same thing as the Victor with a K2.

All I'm saying is the Victor isn't nearly as Balls as people make it out to be. I would have thought that would have been evident in my posts.

Especially since I state that repeatedly in plain spoken English.

But if you want to continue your self pity party please carry on.
The Not Awesome and BattleTurd need a whooole lot more than a speed upgrade. Their hitboxes are garbage. Which is something no 85 tonner can afford. Especially in a game where tonnage matters as much as it does.
The Victor had it too easy before in turning, by quite a ways.
Also that lone JJ has gotten me over more than just rubble. It's a definite boost in Canyon, and opens up quite a few different approach areas on River city just for two off the top of my head.

Edited by Mavairo, 06 April 2014 - 01:55 PM.

[Ultimax]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

All I'm saying is the Victor isn't nearly as Balls as people make it out to be. I would have thought that would have been evident in my posts.

And there are more than a few of us making reasoned posts, based on straight numbers - the only thing that matters.

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

The Not Awesome and BattleTurd need a whooole lot more than a speed upgrade. Their hitboxes are garbage. Which is something no 85 tonner can afford. Especially in a game where tonnage matters as much as it does.

What does that have to do with the Victor's turn rate?

Exactly Zero.

If you want to go make threads how they need their hitboxes shaved down again, be my guest. I'll be in that thread to support you.


Using another poorly designed example to justify a nerf on a completely different mech that doesn't even solve the root problem (which is actually convergence, and not Poptarting, or Victors, or Highlanders or AC 5s or PPCs) that is irrational, is just hollow and without real merit or value.

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

The Victor had it too easy before in turning, by quite a ways.

Seems like you are having trouble with Plain English yourself.

Torso Pitch
Torso Yaw
Arm Turn Speed

http://bit.ly/1q2vBgs.

That's what most of us are focused on in this thread.

That's what the data points support.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2014 - 03:14 PM.