347 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

AntiCitizenJuan what I see is people wanting a balanced nerf based on math not an over nerf. I do not think any one minds PGI making them the Victor lee agile we just want the agility to fit the 80 tons they are.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 24 April 2014 - 11:33 PM.

[Ultimax]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 24 April 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

Yeah, it sure as shit didnt twist like a 100 ton mech before the nerf,

Proof?

Or are you basing this on the pre-nerf JJ turning in mid-air that was also nerfed recently?

We've had about a dozen posters like yourself come into this thread and repeatedly make claims such as "moved like a medium" and everyone of those claims has been debunked with hard data and proof.

Will you be different, and able to show proof?

AntiCitizenJuan, on 24 April 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

it didnt turn like a 80 ton mech either, and you cant even count the AWS because its the exception to the rule.

Proof, provide it.


Also this thread is focused on the TWIST SPEED OF THE TORSO, turning is a different calculation.


I want it to follow the formula for an 80 ton mech.

No more, no less and it will still twist slower than the Awesome if this was the case.

AntiCitizenJuan, on 24 April 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

It was too good, and all I see after reading this thread is a bunch of crybabies...

And all I've seen is a dozen posters like yourself making claims and unable to back it up with proof or data, or anything except insults.


Unfortunately for you, and them, insults don't actually make a coherent or adult argument.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 25 April 2014 - 06:23 AM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Ultimatum X, on 25 April 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

.

See, thats the thing. As someone who plays on what I can only assume to be an above average Elo bracket when I solo drop with the NGNG dudes, Proton, aniviron, Homeless Bill, Bishop Steiner, FupDup, El Bandito, and a lot of other people who are forum regulars,
I'm positive that if you ask most of these people about the Victor prenerf they would tell you the same thing in a more intelligent way, that the Victor was too nimble for its tonnage. As for saying turning instead of twisting, whatever, I'm a human being who makes errors, I type shit wrong.

You still havent addressed what I've said earlier. The Victor is a small Assault, has some of the best hitboxes in the game, has JJ support, is one of the only Assaults capable of running an XL engine efficiently, has the best Hero variant, almost never run hot on good builds, and when it did have twist speed was able to use its arm as a shield in brawls, which it can still do just fine.

It seems Victor fans want all the benefits of being a lighter mech without any of the drawbacks of being an Assault.
They wont change it back, and frankly I'm glad.

XX Sulla XX, on 24 April 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

AntiCitizenJuan what I see is people wanting a balanced nerf based on math not an over nerf. I do not think any one minds PGI making them the Victor lee agile we just want the agility to fit the 80 tons they are.

I get that part. But the Victor has so many benefits that its pilots seem to be sweeping under the rug by not addressing.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 25 April 2014 - 07:28 AM.

[Ultimax]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 April 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

See, thats the thing. As someone who plays on what I can only assume to be an above average Elo bracket when I solo drop with the NGNG dudes, Proton, aniviron, Homeless Bill, Bishop Steiner, FupDup, El Bandito, and a lot of other people who are forum regulars,
I'm positive that if you ask most of these people about the Victor prenerf they would tell you the same thing in a more intelligent way, that the Victor was too nimble for its tonnage.

Hopefully these guys won't mind me quoting them here.

Quote

I'm thinking my definition of Brawler and most of those posting "It's FINE" must be vastly different.

For the last 6 months, I have encountered nearly no other Brawler VTRs, everyone on the OpFor (and my own team) are sitting behind a hill playing Pogostick.

Now, a nerf comes along that is hugely more impactful on Brawlers than said Poptarts, and we have people crawling out of the woodwork calling themselves Brawlers and saying they are fine with the nerf.

ProTip:. Just because you are poptarting at 300 meters instead of 1000 doesn't make you a Brawler.

Also ANYONE (sorry IQfish) saying the Victor moved like a Medium, either never piloted a Victor, Never Piloted a Medium with a speed higher than 64 kph or is flat out delusional. Aside from leveling out new mechs, the ONLY Assault I piloted was a Victor. But 1/2 to 2/3 of my Matches are in 50 and 55 tonners (few of which I have set to break 100 kph). And the difference pref nerf was quite noticeable. The difference post nerf? Pray to god you don't have to 1v1 vs a good Medium Pilot (I killed VTRs regularly from my Shadowhawk pre-nerf, now it's child's play). The VTR shambles like a Highlander now, only of course without the benefit of the pre nerf JJs.

Did something need to be done to separate the Classes more? Absolutely. But the agility and speed adjustments should be largely a linear scale, from 20 tons to 100, not based on "class" alone. And then those agility stats could be tweaked accordingly when things like JJs and Hard Points were factored in.

The Victor SHOULD be more maneuverable than a Highlander or Battlemaster. It dang sure should outmaneuver the Atlas. And Jump wise, it should be on par with the Cataphract (though it's ground agility should be slightly less) because the Victor was built around jump capability from the start, whereas the Cataphract-3D had it shoehorned in later.

The Jump Jet nerf made the overall need for further agility nerfs questionable to begin with, but what any reasonable person would agree on is it certainly was not needed to be nerfed to the degree they were. All that did was further encourage the immobile, poptart meta among Assault jocks.

GG PGI, Close.

(But hey, leave them as is, I reckon. My job as a Medium Jock just got a WHOLE lot easier)

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3270265

Quote

An agility nerf probably has little effect when you're bunny hopping behind a rock, but in a brawl--that tactic we should be trying to encourage--it'll probably hurt quite a bit. The nerf gun has missed its target once again.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3229549

Quote

I used Smurfys to look up the turning speed of the Victor and Atlas at 300 rated engines and 350 rated engines. Then, I subtracted 20% from the Victor's turning rates (mathematically the same as multiplying VTR turning speed by 0.8), which made them almost exactly equal to the Atlas.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3228892


(EDIT: Not sure why I can't get Fup's name to display)

I'll let you google the other one's, I'm not sure what side of the issue they stand - I just picked out these two because I remembered their posts on this subject.

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 April 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

As for saying turning instead of twisting, whatever, I'm a human being who makes errors, I type shit wrong.

Fair enough.

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 April 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

You still havent addressed what I've said earlier. The Victor is a small Assault, has some of the best hitboxes in the game, has JJ support, is one of the only Assaults capable of running an XL engine efficiently, has the best Hero variant, almost never run hot on good builds, and when it did have twist speed was able to use its arm as a shield in brawls, which it can still do just fine.

It seems Victor fans want all the benefits of being a lighter mech without any of the drawbacks of being an Assault.
They wont change it back, and frankly I'm glad.

I've addressed it repeatedly in this thread, and I really don't feel like rehashing it because people don't want to re-read.

The Victor and Awesome are "assaults" by name, tonnage wise they are closer to the Orion then they are to the Atlas.

There is ZERO reason that an 80 ton assault should have the twisting speed of a 100 ton assault mech.



When I see you post some proof to back up your other claims, or I see you make a thread advocating that every single mech that has JJs and good hitboxes should get a twenty ton twist speed penalty I'll start to consider your post as sincere and not simply someone who has a grudge against the Dragon Slayer and probably poptarts.

Hint: This nerf hit brawling Victors, not poptarts.


I respect facts, and data and well formed opinions - not hyperbole or balance tweaks that are idiosyncratic.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 25 April 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Ultimatum X, on 25 April 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Hint: This nerf hit brawling Victors, not poptarts.

According to sarna, The Victor was designed to jump 120 meters into a firefight, engage, and then jump out because it is lightly armored with stock loadouts, something that is not translated upon in MWO because it is very well armored when at max. There's nothing in there to suggest that its mobility comes from anything other than its jumpjets, which dont even function the way they're supposed to according to the lore that I'm familiar with. Again, its an Assault mech that is supposed to have some kind of supplementary, agile support cover from lighter mechs to cover its sluggishness, it should be able to trace targets at its optimum range, that doesnt mean it should be able to keep a bead on those targets as they attempt to flank the ASSAULT mech.

You're right that it shouldnt be as sluggish as an Atlas, but the Victor WAS too good before. Maybe it didnt have the agility of a Medium, but it definitely did not function like an 80 ton mech. It should not be able to stand up against a Medium or Light mech that could manage to outmaneuver it. Assault mechs are supposed to win standoffs not take out mechs that can get around it. At that rate it should be able to rocket itself away with Jump Jets, but thats not the case in MWO because PGI didnt do JJs right.

I still think most of the Victor pilots ITT are crybabies, and I still see them every drop, and I still see them with good pilots doing well in game. Theres nothing to suggest the Victor is an actual brawler, so why should it excel in that role anyway?

Fix Jump Jets and give it a small positive tweak. Dont bring it back to where it was.

Furthermore I drew a small diagram of how this would work if the mechanics of the game were more traditionally Battletech.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 25 April 2014 - 08:41 AM.

[Ultimax]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 April 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

According to sarna, The Victor was designed to jump 120 meters into a firefight, engage, and then jump out because it is lightly armored with stock loadouts, something that is not translated upon in MWO because it is very well armored when at max.

From Sarna


A Victor can therefore "support" friendly units by jumping directly into the fray and bringing its deadly close range arsenal to bear, an ability which can surprise inexperienced Mechwarriors and prove advantageous in mountainous terrain. One sacrifice made for this superb mobility is the 'Mech's relatively light armor of only eleven and a half tons


Close range arsenal & jumping into the fray both sound like brawling to me.

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 April 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

You're right that it shouldnt be as sluggish as an Atlas, but the Victor WAS too good before. Maybe it didnt have the agility of a Medium, but it definitely did not function like an 80 ton mech.

The only thing I have to go on, for the torso twist speed of the Victor is the formula.

So even before the nerf, it didn't twist like any mediums. If you have proof otherwise, I'm happy to consider it but I haven't been able to find any.


I think most people probably mistake the Victor's twist speed for the former agility instead of how JJs worked before the nerf.


As Bishop Steiner pointed out though, with the JJs nerfed the twist speed nerf was overboard.

Now that assaults can no longer move like they did in the air (which after reading Sarna, actually seems closer to lore for the Victor), I see no reason for the torso twist speed nerf on top of it.

It certainly shouldn't have worse torso speed than heavier Assault mechs, that just doesn't make any sense.

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 April 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

I still think most of the Victor pilots ITT are crybabies, and I still see them every drop, and I still see them with good pilots doing well in game. Theres nothing to suggest the Victor is an actual brawler, so why should it excel in that role anyway?

See quote above. Sounds like a mobility focused bralwer to me.

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 April 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

Fix Jump Jets and give it a small positive tweak. Dont bring it back to where it was.

Jump jets were already nerfed, in two distinct ways IIRC. I'm not sure what else you could to do them that would make them remain a reasonable choice for their tonnage.


If you want to advocate JJ shake on the way down to combat poptarting, it's not an argument I have a deeply held opinion on - I just want to play my Victor brawlers again without twisting like my Atlas.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 25 April 2014 - 09:18 AM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Ultimatum X, on 25 April 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

From Sarna


A Victor can therefore "support" friendly units by jumping directly into the fray and bringing its deadly close range arsenal to bear, an ability which can surprise inexperienced Mechwarriors and prove advantageous in mountainous terrain. One sacrifice made for this superb mobility is the 'Mech's relatively light armor of only eleven and a half tons


Close range arsenal & jumping into the fray both sound like brawling to me.

Really, because it sounds to me like it was designed to enter combat, fire, and then leave.

Ultimatum X, on 25 April 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

The only thing I have to go on, for the torso twist speed of the Victor is the formula.

So even before the nerf, it didn't twist like any mediums. If you have proof otherwise, I'm happy to consider it but I haven't been able to find any.

Still beating a dead horse over a statement I never made; reading is hard

Ultimatum X, on 25 April 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

I think most people probably mistake the Victor's twist speed for the former agility instead of how JJs worked before the nerf.
As Bishop Steiner pointed out though, with the JJs nerfed the twist speed nerf was overboard.
Now that assaults can no longer move like they did in the air (which after reading Sarna, actually seems closer to lore for the Victor), I see no reason for the torso twist speed nerf on top of it.
It certainly shouldn't have worse torso speed than heavier Assault mechs, that just doesn't make any sense.

Reading is hard

Ultimatum X, on 25 April 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

See quote above. Sounds like a mobility focused bralwer to me.

Sounds debateable to me

Ultimatum X, on 25 April 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Jump jets were already nerfed, in two distinct ways IIRC. I'm not sure what else you could to do them that would make them remain a reasonable choice for their tonnage.
If you want to advocate JJ shake on the way down to combat poptarting, it's not an argument I have a deeply held opinion on - I just want to play my Victor brawlers again without twisting like my Atlas.

Boy, having people not actually read your statements and making bold out of context assumptions sure is fun. Because Im definitely talking about nerfing jumpjet capabilities and not an actual change in mechanics.

edit:

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 25 April 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[Ultimax]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 April 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Boy, having people not actually read your statements and making bold out of context assumptions sure is fun. Because Im definitely talking about nerfing jumpjet capabilities and not an actual change in mechanics.

Considering you didn't read all of my posts either, didn't address my direct rebuttal using quotes from Steiner and FupDup after your "appeal to skill" logical fallacy didn't work and the initial tone of your posts I think we're about even.


Engine * 20 / Tonnage = Torso Twist Speed


That's the formula for twist speed, I want the Victor to follow the formula like every other mech* - no more, no less.

*Except the Highlander, which also turns like the Atlas now. The Victor's nerf cut deeper, because the HGN gets a 10 ton penalty, and the VTR gets a 20 ton penalty.