347 replies to this topic

[Mavairo]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 24 April 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Do you think the Victor was too good of a sniper? Or do you think it was too good of a brawler? Because if it is that it was too good of a sniper the nerf did nothing to affect that. If it is too good of a brawler that wasn't what Paul was targeting.

EDIT: By the way the stalker isn't designed to be nimble. It's a support mech in most variations with mostly LRMs and some close range weapons for self defense.

It was too good at both. I could GTFO OR Stand and Fight it out if someone managed to close. And because of my VTR's agility, odds were pretty good that I was going to punch someone's lights out in CQC engagements.
Now I know that I damn well better have some support with me when I pilot my VTR if I have any intentions on remaining stationary for long, because I can't spread damage better than an Atlas, and turn (specially spatter firing jump jets) faster than the Atlas can keep up with during a brawl.

That's part of our trade off system imo. Sniping and long range FLD firesupport, or mechs that are better in a furball. Having Both was so very much Easy Mode.

VTR is a mobile, firesupport mech or is supposed to be. It shouldn't have been a Brawler King at the exact same moment that it was one of the 2 best sniper mechs in the game.

Edited by Mavairo, 24 April 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[Prezimonto]

What mystifies me is the 80 mechs already have the "premier" fire support mech with the AWS. If the game really needed another fire support mech, why not work on making the AWS actually playable.

Instead we get nerfs to the premier brawling mech in the game because it's too good because it can fire support and brawl. If it was JUST really dangerous in close it'd be fine. But because we have to be able to stuff PPC's into small laser hard points this mech can't be good brawling.... obviously.

[L Y N X]

The Awesome is playable. Have you considered that you either don't know how? or that you simply don't like the Awesome or how it currently plays? The Victor fills a different kind of support role than the Awesome.

[Mavairo]

Prezimonto, on 24 April 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

What mystifies me is the 80 mechs already have the "premier" fire support mech with the AWS. If the game really needed another fire support mech, why not work on making the AWS actually playable.

Instead we get nerfs to the premier brawling mech in the game because it's too good because it can fire support and brawl. If it was JUST really dangerous in close it'd be fine. But because we have to be able to stuff PPC's into small laser hard points this mech can't be good brawling.... obviously.

Because if they went to a limited hard point system... much like making ACs into the multishot weapons THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE, the game would make entirely too much sense.
Kinda like getting rid of our Alphas Forever heat system that they hamfisted Ghost Heat into, to ineffectually change anything and instead going to a Dissipation based model.

Or I could have just used the now infamous phrase "3 second Jenners" or "Because PGI"

Edited by Mavairo, 24 April 2014 - 09:02 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

There's hardly any brawlers in my ELO. Most of which that are there are in heavies, or Atlases. Most of the firesupport is in Stalkers.
The stalker IS supposed to be a better brawler than the VTR, it's a walking gun. The stalker isn't quite as good though, particularly in mixed game mode play where it's lack of overall mobility becomes a huge pain at times. VTRs role is pretty much what it's always been, big engine big autocannon and big secondary weaponry.

You are spewing quite a lot man!!! (not just this post but all of them)

If you took the time to read more carefully instead of seeing "Victor move like Atlas", you would see that the issue is with a size 350 engine, an Atlas twists at the same rate as a Victor with a size 350 engine. Given that it is 20 tons lighter than an Atlas, it SHOULD twist faster than an Atlas. Highlander will twist the same rate with the same engine as well, except it is limited to 325 or 330 for HM so it can't get up to a 350. Given how much lighter the Victor is than an Atlas, it should be a step quicker on the twist speed, even though it can have jump jets.

Seriously, I (we) am not asking for a lot. I just think -20% was excessive. -10% would be more "in line". I get so frustrated when people say the Victor was put "in-line" with this nerf. That statement has no basis in fact. In line with what? What other chassis has a -20% chassis nerf to twist speed? Do you propose that all mechs with jump jets should have a -20% chassis adjustment to twist speed?

[DeathlyEyes]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

It was too good at both. I could GTFO OR Stand and Fight it out if someone managed to close. And because of my VTR's agility, odds were pretty good that I was going to punch someone's lights out in CQC engagements.
Now I know that I damn well better have some support with me when I pilot my VTR if I have any intentions on remaining stationary for long, because I can't spread damage better than an Atlas, and turn (specially spatter firing jump jets) faster than the Atlas can keep up with during a brawl.

That's part of our trade off system imo. Sniping and long range FLD firesupport, or mechs that are better in a furball. Having Both was so very much Easy Mode.

VTR is a mobile, firesupport mech or is supposed to be. It shouldn't have been a Brawler King at the exact same moment that it was one of the 2 best sniper mechs in the game.

Why punish the community using the mech being used as intended. It was intended to be able to move in fast shoot and skidoo. Now that jump jets do absolutely nothing to add mobility by slowing the mechs top speed and slowing the mechs turn rate the Victor has little advantage in this support roll you suggested. The reasons no one uses Awesomes are that it's hit boxes are terrible and energy weapons are damn near useless in brawls compared to mixed balistic builds. Not to mention all the hard points are too low to peak over ridges.

Gas Guzzler, on 24 April 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Seriously, I (we) am not asking for a lot. I just think -20% was excessive. -10% would be more "in line". I get so frustrated when people say the Victor was put "in-line" with this nerf. That statement has no basis in fact. In line with what? What other chassis has a -20% chassis nerf to twist speed? Do you propose that all mechs with jump jets should have a -20% chassis adjustment to twist speed?

Quick guys nerf the shadowhawk so that it has the same torso twist speed as an Orion because it can take jump jets.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 24 April 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Mavairo]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 24 April 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Why punish the community using the mech being used as intended. It was intended to be able to move in fast shoot and skidoo. Now that jump jets do absolutely nothing to add mobility by slowing the mechs top speed and slowing the mechs turn rate the Victor has little advantage in this support roll you suggested. The reasons no one uses Awesomes are that it's hit boxes are terrible and energy weapons are damn near useless in brawls compared to mixed balistic builds.

Well the problem lies with ACs and our garbage heat system really. the VTR and HGN just happened to be the two best mechs at abusing it.
JJs add a ton to vertical mobility. Since the nerf I've used them to get into better sniping positions, GTFO out of dodge (particularly on canyons) by leaping over cover (Why they buffed JJs forward speed is beyond me. They giveth and takith away) and leaving mechs to try and chase after me the long way around.

Awesomes are not used for scores of reasons. (quite a few come back to aforementioned garbage heat system) Hit boxes are just the tip of it. Poor hardpoint totals (look at it's total Energy slots compared to a Stalker, Battlemaster or even the VTR) the WRONG (non ballistic) hardpoints, and most damning of all Tiny Engines with no positive speed modifiers, No JJs and somehow to make it even worse among the worst hill climbing characteristics in the game.

I'm of the personal opinion that Paul actually Hates the AWS. Because there's just no way in hell it could Suck on so many levels on pure accident.

Edited by Mavairo, 24 April 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Well the problem lies with ACs and our garbage heat system really. the VTR and HGN just happened to be the two best mechs at abusing it.

You just admitted to my point. The nerf didn't solve the issue and ruined builds not abusing the current meta.

[Prezimonto]

7ynx, on 24 April 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

The Awesome is playable. Have you considered that you either don't know how? or that you simply don't like the Awesome or how it currently plays? The Victor fills a different kind of support role than the Awesome.

It's playable, it's just not competitive in most roles. It's still a great LRM boat (one variant). But it's iconic role is direct fire support, and it's just out played in that role by several mechs.

[Mavairo]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 24 April 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

You just admitted to my point. The nerf didn't solve the issue and ruined builds not abusing the current meta.

The problem is Do you honestly believe after... well since CB this meta's been going strong, that they are going to change it?
I don't. Because that depends upon Paul admitting that he was infact Wrong with Ghost Heat, the Heat System in general, and AC mechanics.

(funnily enough, I've heard that Clan ACs are going to be like what ALL ACs should be like... which is going to make Clanners die horrible and painful deaths to us FLD ISsers... so I wouldn't be surprised to see him nerf IS AC damage into the ground to "compensate")

The best we can hope for sadly is nerfs to mech chassis like this.
I don't LIKE the way they went about this. But the VTR is hardly anywhere close AWS levels of Bad (which at least one person has said it is). Not enough to warrant a 16 page thread about it certainly. And sadly it's probably the best we're going to get.

Edited by Mavairo, 24 April 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

The problem is Do you honestly believe after... well since CB this meta's been going strong, that they are going to change it?
I don't. Because that depends upon Paul admitting that he was infact Wrong with Ghost Heat, the Heat System in general, and AC mechanics.

(funnily enough, I've heard that Clan ACs are going to be like what ALL ACs should be like... which is going to make Clanners die horrible and painful deaths to us FLD ISsers... so I wouldn't be surprised to see him nerf IS AC damage into the ground to "compensate")

The best we can hope for sadly is nerfs to mech chassis like this.
I don't LIKE the way they went about this. But the VTR is hardly anywhere close AWS levels of Bad (which at least one person has said it is). Not enough to warrant a 16 page thread about it certainly. And sadly it's probably the best we're going to get.

So... you support that all Mech's with jump jets get the -20% torso twist nerf then? I think -10% would be more appropriate.

Also, Clan LBX/s toggled to slug mode will fill the FLD role of current IS ACs

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 April 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

The Victor was over nurfed. With nurfing jump jet recharg and turn and also torso twist and and turn speed. Now it handles like 100 ton mech. I hope they fix it so it handles like the 80 ton mech it is.

Oh and the Victor should be a mobile brawler not a sniper platform. And the nurfs should reflect that.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 24 April 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[Jeffrey Wilder]

Sstaan, on 24 April 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

I tried the trial Victor, Honestly it handles pretty much the way I'd expect a Victor to handle. As far as turning it does seem a little sluggish, but then again so long as you're not using "Arm Lock" its really not that bad. I found piloting a Victor fun overall, though in the end I saved up and bought an Atlas instead as I figured If I'm going to pilot an assault I might as well pilot the meanest looking one (and an old Battletech favorite, though come to think of it I rarely used it). In retrospect, I should have bought the Victor, as the Atlas is so slow. Well, too late now. I'll just have to grind away til I can afford something a bit more mobile for when I don't feel like plodding along. And no.. It does not handle like an Atlas, The Atlas is alot slower and lumbers along compared to the Trial Victor, I assume the other Victors handle similarly and are thus far more mobile and maneuverable than my Atlas.

Yes indeed. Even with the nerf, I find the Victor miles ahead of Atlas when it comes to moving around. An assault is OP when it can turn like a heavy but have fire power like an assault.

The trial Victor without any buff is pretty neat if you ask me.

[DeathlyEyes]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

The best we can hope for sadly is nerfs to mech chassis like this.
I don't LIKE the way they went about this. But the VTR is hardly anywhere close AWS levels of Bad (which at least one person has said it is). Not enough to warrant a 16 page thread about it certainly. And sadly it's probably the best we're going to get.

Go ahead and make a thread about the Awesome, I will gladly support it. Just don't come into my thread and tell me that I am wrong when I have numbers that clearly back up what I am saying. As a somewhat consistent killer of Awesomes (it would be frequent but frankly they don't show up in my ELO bracket), I will gladly support the thread. I don't own an Awesome because when I looked at the hard points, weapon mounts and mech model I knew it was a death trap and simply avoided it.

EDIT: Honestly the Awesome is one of my favorite mechs, along with PPCs being one of my favorite weapons. Many other Battletech fans hold this opinion and surely many will support you in your valiant cause.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 24 April 2014 - 09:40 AM.

[RetroActive]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

The problem is Do you honestly believe after... well since CB this meta's been going strong, that they are going to change it?
I don't. Because that depends upon Paul admitting that he was infact Wrong with Ghost Heat, the Heat System in general, and AC mechanics.

(funnily enough, I've heard that Clan ACs are going to be like what ALL ACs should be like... which is going to make Clanners die horrible and painful deaths to us FLD ISsers... so I wouldn't be surprised to see him nerf IS AC damage into the ground to "compensate")

The best we can hope for sadly is nerfs to mech chassis like this.
I don't LIKE the way they went about this. But the VTR is hardly anywhere close AWS levels of Bad (which at least one person has said it is). Not enough to warrant a 16 page thread about it certainly. And sadly it's probably the best we're going to get.

I'm not sure that you got the point of his post. The agility nerf barely affected the Victor's META role. It only affected the Victor's brawling capabilities.

If PGI's intention was to slow down the META capabilities of the Victor, they failed. They only nerfed its ability to brawl.

Sadly, my favorite mech, the VTR-9S with AC20+SRM, is currently collecting dust in favor of my sometimes used VTR-9K with PPC+AC10. The dust-collecting of my 9S can probably be partially attributed to SRM suckage, but the agility nerf is the main reason it's currently unused.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jeffrey Wilder, on 24 April 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Yes indeed. Even with the nerf, I find the Victor miles ahead of Atlas when it comes to moving around. An assault is OP when it can turn like a heavy but have fire power like an assault.

The trial Victor without any buff is pretty neat if you ask me.

How about torso twist speed? Sure it moves around faster. Have you looked at the numbers? Does your Atlas have a 350 size engine? Details!

I'll tell you right now, if you drive an Atlas with a 350 size engine, it will torso twist as fast as the trial Victor. That is not a "feel", its in the numbers.

You speak as if an Assault is magical increase in firepower. It is not. It's all based on tonnage. An Orion is a heavy but is only 5 tons lighter then a Victor. Cataphract is only 10 tons. A Victor cannot carry the same amount of firepower as a Highlander, that is for sure. A Victor should feel slightly more sluggish then a heavy, when both have the same engine size equipped.

I don't care about how a Victor "feels" to you, I care about how it is. A Cataphract with an XL 320 WAS more agile than a Victor with an XL 320 prior to the nerf. I don't think you realize that no other mech has a -20% twist reduction speed.

[Jeffrey Wilder]

Well, I have piloted Highlanders, Atlases with max engines and I thought they were good until I tried the trial Victor.

I really wonder why didn't I buy the Victor from the start.

[Gas Guzzler]

Atlas with a 360 will twist faster than the trial Victor with an XL 350 (it comes with an XL 350 so it starts out with a bigger engine then you would typically put in an Atlas or a Highlander), although the difference may not be noticeable. Highlander suffers from a low engine cap and can't equip a 350, otherwise it would twist at the same speed. (The 733C would actually be faster).

Primary benefit from the Victor is straight line speed.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 April 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 April 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

So... you support that all Mech's with jump jets get the -20% torso twist nerf then? I think -10% would be more appropriate.

Also, Clan LBX/s toggled to slug mode will fill the FLD role of current IS ACs

Just for clarity in this thread, here is the grade school math behind the changes.


Twist Speed = 20 x Engine / Tonnage


20 x 350 = 7000
7000 / 100 = 70°/s
7000 / 80 = 87.5°/s

Actual current numbers:
Atlas with 350 = 70°/s
Victor with 350 = 70°/s


As you can see the Victor has the torso twist speed of an Atlas.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 24 April 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[Mavairo]

RetroActive, on 24 April 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I'm not sure that you got the point of his post. The agility nerf barely affected the Victor's META role. It only affected the Victor's brawling capabilities.

If PGI's intention was to slow down the META capabilities of the Victor, they failed. They only nerfed its ability to brawl.

Sadly, my favorite mech, the VTR-9S with AC20+SRM, is currently collecting dust in favor of my sometimes used VTR-9K with PPC+AC10. The dust-collecting of my 9S can probably be partially attributed to SRM suckage, but the agility nerf is the main reason it's currently unused.

Actually it did affect it. It's Sniping performance is hindered by the fact that it can no longer Out Brawl an Atlas, while SIMULTANTEOUSLY maintaining a sniper's role.
I have touched on that repeatedly, already in post after post.
Thanks to PGI's incompetent game design, the VTR in it's prenerf state was every bit capable of being a world class brawler WHILE LOADED AS A SNIPER. Because it was so vastly more agile to the bigger more brawl focused mechs that you could easily spread the damage while your FLD weapons were on CD.
Now when something like a Fatlas gets it's mitts on a VTR, the VTR is toast if he doesn't GTFO. Instead of pointing at the Fatlas, and laughing at him as he guns it down while evading most of the fire, and torso twisting the rest of it off like it were rain water.

Edited by Mavairo, 24 April 2014 - 10:49 AM.