347 replies to this topic

[DeathlyEyes]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Actually it did affect it. It's Sniping performance is hindered by the fact that it can no longer Out Brawl an Atlas, while SIMULTANTEOUSLY maintaining a sniper's role.
I have touched on that repeatedly, already in post after post.
Thanks to PGI's incompetent game design, the VTR in it's prenerf state was every bit capable of being a world class brawler WHILE LOADED AS A SNIPER. Because it was so vastly more agile to the bigger more brawl focused mechs that you could easily spread the damage while your FLD weapons were on CD.

And you hit the nail on the head right here. The problem is a sniper specific problem. The reason a Victor could brawl and snipe with any mech is because of the amount of DPS the weapons it uses put out. An atlas with 3 SRM6s an AC20 and 2 medium lasers is going to put out optimally 16.5 DPS realisticly with current SRM hit rate that number is likely closer to 13.5 give or take. 2 PPC 2 AC5 do 11 DPS before the recent nerf it was even more. Factor in they likely did damage before coming into contact with the Atlas then they would win. The easy solution without changing too much would be to lower the DPS of the PPC slowly until it comes more in line with what it should be. Mechwarrior 4 did this by running 6 second recycle times on PPCs. Brawling was dangerous because a mech with a high brawler alpha could knock down a mech and kill it before it could stand up, out DPSing the Sniper mech. You are right the nerf affected sniper builds and brawler builds equally in brawling situations but the sniper build is still supreme because it's capable of doing the same DPS as the brawler configuration while the brawler configuration doesn't have its added mobility edge.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 24 April 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[Mavairo]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 24 April 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

And you hit the nail on the head right here. The problem is a sniper specific problem. The reason a Victor could brawl and snipe with any mech is because of the amount of DPS the weapons it uses put out. An atlas with 3 SRM6s an AC20 and 2 medium lasers is going to put out optimally 16.5 DPS realisticly with current SRM hit rate that number is likely closer to 13.5 give or take. 2 PPC 2 AC5 do 11 DPS before the recent nerf it was even more. Factor in they likely did damage before coming into contact with the Atlas then they would win. The easy solution without changing too much would be to lower the DPS of the PPC slowly until it comes more in line with what it should be. Mechwarrior 4 did this by running 6 second recycle times on PPCs. Brawling was dangerous because a mech with a high brawler alpha could knock down a mech and kill it before it could stand up, out DPSing the Sniper mech. You are right the nerf affected sniper builds and brawler builds equally in brawling situations but the sniper build is still supreme because it's capable of doing the same DPS as the brawler configuration while the brawler configuration doesn't have its added mobility edge.

Removing the FLD nature from ACs I think is the big solution here. If nothing else that needs to be done, direly. In past MW titles people still took ACs vs lasers because of their lack of heat. Paul is of course to stupid to realize that Heat makes a HUGE difference in mechwarrior. It always has. (well it would if we didn't have the stupid arsed Alphas Forever Capacity heat system we have now)

Right now, when I do brawl in my VTRs, I'm using it as a flank mech. Something I send in laterally to the enemy rather than from the front or rear directly. If they turn to engage my VTR I've already taken my shots and probably have bunny hopped away, or hop over them, while my lance mates pour fire into exposed armor.
Pretty much I've adapted it to the same playstyle as a Dragon (just bigger).
Alot of that is due to SRMs being Pants right now.

[DeathlyEyes]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Removing the FLD nature from ACs I think is the big solution here. If nothing else that needs to be done, direly. In past MW titles people still took ACs vs lasers because of their lack of heat. Paul is of course to stupid to realize that Heat makes a HUGE difference in mechwarrior. It always has. (well it would if we didn't have the stupid arsed Alphas Forever Capacity heat system we have now)

Right now, when I do brawl in my VTRs, I'm using it as a flank mech. Something I send in laterally to the enemy rather than from the front or rear directly. If they turn to engage my VTR I've already taken my shots and probably have bunny hopped away, or hop over them, while my lance mates pour fire into exposed armor.
Pretty much I've adapted it to the same playstyle as a Dragon (just bigger).
Alot of that is due to SRMs being Pants right now.

Fixing just ACs doesnt solve anything. Clan LBX, PPCs and Gauss will continue to be an issue. The video I posted is of me using PPC+Gauss. That would be totally unaffected. They need to remove the charge mechanic so mechs that use to excel at counter sniping no longer are at a severe disadvantage (dual gauss Jager). They need to increase the recycle rate for PPCs, the weapons doing the majority of the damage and they need to increase the recycle time of the gauss to compensate for the lack of a charge mechanic.

[Ultimax]

Jeffrey Wilder, on 24 April 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

An assault is OP when it can turn like a heavy but have fire power like an assault.

1) The Victor has the torso twist speed of an Atlas. This is not hyperbole like your post, this is math.

2) Firepower like an assault? 2x AC 5s and 2x PPCs (poptart template)? Do you know how many "assaults" can put out more firepower than that? In fact quite a few heavies can run the exact same template (I run that on a CTF-3D that weighs 10 tons less).

3) "Assault" isn't some magic word that suddenly makes a mech awesome. It's an arbitrary class name. The Orion is 5 tons lighter than the Victor, the Atlas is 100 tons heavier. The Victor should twist similar to the Orion, not the Atlas.

[Mavairo]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 24 April 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Fixing just ACs doesnt solve anything. Clan LBX, PPCs and Gauss will continue to be an issue. The video I posted is of me using PPC+Gauss. That would be totally unaffected. They need to remove the charge mechanic so mechs that use to excel at counter sniping no longer are at a severe disadvantage (dual gauss Jager). They need to increase the recycle rate for PPCs, the weapons doing the majority of the damage and they need to increase the recycle time of the gauss to compensate for the lack of a charge mechanic.

It would also help if the lionshare of the maps in the drop rotation weren't open near coverless voids. how someone felt Caustic Valley for example was EVER a good idea is beyond my understanding...

Wait. Because PGI

Ultimatum X, on 24 April 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

1) The Victor has the torso twist speed of an Atlas. This is not hyperbole like your post, this is math.

2) Firepower like an assault? 2x AC 5s and 2x PPCs (poptart template)? Do you know how many "assaults" can put out more firepower than that? In fact quite a few heavies can run the exact same template (I run that on a CTF-3D that weighs 10 tons less).

3) "Assault" isn't some magic word that suddenly makes a mech awesome. It's an arbitrary class name. The Orion is 5 tons lighter than the Victor, the Atlas is 100 tons heavier. The Victor should twist similar to the Orion, not the Atlas.

Except the VTR is effectively much heavier than it is, because it can safely run XL engines where as the Orion can not, it has a great deal more free tonnage available to it.

[tayhimself]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

The stalker IS supposed to be a better brawler than the VTR, it's a walking gun. The stalker isn't quite as good though, particularly in mixed game mode play where it's lack of overall mobility becomes a huge pain at times. VTRs role is pretty much what it's always been, big engine big autocannon and big secondary weaponry.

Talkin out of your a55 as usual...

[Ultimax]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Except the VTR is effectively much heavier than it is, because it can safely run XL engines where as the Orion can not, it has a great deal more free tonnage available to it.

Safely if you are playing against bad players. Those side torsos are not that hard to exploit, especially when you know every Victor you see has a 95% chance of running XL.

And you are still running 2x PPCs and 2x AC 5s.


That's not some magic combination of firepower, just 5 tons heavier into Battlemaster or Stalker class Assaults and they can be boating a weapons lists so long it looks like a restaurant menu on target acquisition.

Never mind the 90 ton weight class Highlanders, or the "do not stand in front of it" Banshees.


So it still dies to side torso explosions no matter how many times you want to make it seem like this doesn't make the VTR more vulnerable and finally this "heavier" assault mech carries the same level (or less in some cases!) of firepower as my Cataphract or Jaeger.

So, woopdie do?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 24 April 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

tayhimself, on 24 April 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Talkin out of your a55 as usual...

Yeah, garbage torso twist range isn't a sign of an intended brawler.

[RetroActive]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Actually it did affect it. It's Sniping performance is hindered by the fact that it can no longer Out Brawl an Atlas, while SIMULTANTEOUSLY maintaining a sniper's role.
I have touched on that repeatedly, already in post after post.
Thanks to PGI's incompetent game design, the VTR in it's prenerf state was every bit capable of being a world class brawler WHILE LOADED AS A SNIPER. Because it was so vastly more agile to the bigger more brawl focused mechs that you could easily spread the damage while your FLD weapons were on CD.
Now when something like a Fatlas gets it's mitts on a VTR, the VTR is toast if he doesn't GTFO. Instead of pointing at the Fatlas, and laughing at him as he guns it down while evading most of the fire, and torso twisting the rest of it off like it were rain water.

You can't honestly believe that a Victor with 2 PPC and 2 (U)AC 5 can out brawl a dedicated Atlas brawler.....can you?

EDIT: Speaking about pre-nerf Victor.

Edited by RetroActive, 24 April 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[Simbacca]

RetroActive, on 24 April 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I'm not sure that you got the point of his post. The agility nerf barely affected the Victor's META role. It only affected the Victor's brawling capabilities.

If PGI's intention was to slow down the META capabilities of the Victor, they failed. They only nerfed its ability to brawl.

Sadly, my favorite mech, the VTR-9S with AC20+SRM, is currently collecting dust in favor of my sometimes used VTR-9K with PPC+AC10. The dust-collecting of my 9S can probably be partially attributed to SRM suckage, but the agility nerf is the main reason it's currently unused.

I agree. I can see a slight reduction in the Victor's turning ability, but the 20% reduction simply was too much for such a mech that tends to run larger engines for more speed and manoeuvrability.

[Mavairo]

Ultimatum X, on 24 April 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Safely if you are playing against bad players. Those side torsos are not that hard to exploit, especially when you know every Victor you see has a 95% chance of running XL.

And you are still running 2x PPCs and 2x AC 5s.


That's not some magic combination of firepower, just 5 tons heavier into Battlemaster or Stalker class Assaults and they can be boating a weapons lists so long it looks like a restaurant menu on target acquisition.

Never mind the 90 ton weight class Highlanders, or the "do not stand in front of it" Banshees.


If you think 2x PPCs and 2x AC 5s is some kind of scary level of firepower all by itself, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

"Against bads"
Riiiight.

2 PPCs and 2 AC5s is a very solid amount of firepower since it's delivered to the same spot each strike. Maybe you need to work on your marksmanship some and to quit charging into the enemy, it might help you drop higher than Charlie lance sometime.

That besides, you can save quite abit of tonnage using AC10 instead of the 2x 5s on a VTR. Frees up your other gun ports quite nicely.

RetroActive, on 24 April 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

You can't honestly believe that a Victor with 2 PPC and 2 (U)AC 5 can out brawl a dedicated Atlas brawler.....can you?

EDIT: Speaking about pre-nerf Victor.

It can do the job pretty reliably especially with SRMs being as pants as they are. Especially since if you have half a brain there's already a furball erupting by the time you put your VTR in harms way.

Edited by Mavairo, 24 April 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[RetroActive]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

"Against bads"
Riiiight.

2 PPCs and 2 AC5s is a very solid amount of firepower since it's delivered to the same spot each strike. Maybe you need to work on your marksmanship some and to quit charging into the enemy, it might help you drop higher than Charlie lance sometime.



It can do the job pretty reliably. Especially since if you have half a brain there's already a furball erupting by the time you put your VTR in harms way.

I guess we'll just have to disagree here. If a fresh dedicated brawler D-DC ran into a fresh PPC+AC5 Victor at 200m and both were competent pilots, I'd put my money on the Atlas 100% of the time.

[Mavairo]

RetroActive, on 24 April 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

I guess we'll just have to disagree here. If a fresh dedicated brawler D-DC ran into a fresh PPC+AC5 Victor at 200m and both were competent pilots, I'd put my money on the Atlas 100% of the time.

Now certainly. Prenerf that entirely depends on the terrain. Low cover (things low enough to be Jumped over) riddled, and hilly terrain I'd say the VTR has a pretty good shot at it. Given how relatively lightly armed that is, probably more so than it should have.

I don't consider politely exchanging gunfire and torso twisting to be the extent of brawling. Brawling is part knife fighting in a phone booth, as much as it is part hit and fade. And the prenerf VTR was entirely too good at it. the VTR had (and still does, just not as greatly) the ability to get behind the DDC. I don't think anyone here's suffering under any delusions about how much rear armor a Fatlas is keeping on his back armor either. the VTR's old mobility only helped it all the more to be able to get behind the fatty.

Edited by Mavairo, 24 April 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[Gyrok]

Let me say this...Clan Wolf Delta Galaxy has 4 different pilots who run DDCs almost to the exclusion of everything else. It is "their mech"...(we are talking over 7+ days worth of RL seat time, spent in game in the mech)...I have seen MANY Victors attempt to take them, even highlanders, and even Banshees....and honestly. There is no way a good Atlas pilot loses to another assault...equal skill pilots, then Atlas > Any other assault chassis for brawling. Now, ranged? That is another issue...but inside about 300m, The Atlas will rip you up in the right hands. You know what happens to a Victor that takes 2 separate 74 point alphas to the Torso (which part is irrelevant as you only need to knock out 1 torso)? They drop...HARD...even another Atlas cannot easily spread that much damage...it just is what it is...

[AlmightyAeng]

Gyrok, on 24 April 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Let me say this...Clan Wolf Delta Galaxy has 4 different pilots who run DDCs almost to the exclusion of everything else. It is "their mech"...(we are talking over 7+ days worth of RL seat time, spent in game in the mech)...I have seen MANY Victors attempt to take them, even highlanders, and even Banshees....and honestly. There is no way a good Atlas pilot loses to another assault...equal skill pilots, then Atlas > Any other assault chassis for brawling. Now, ranged? That is another issue...but inside about 300m, The Atlas will rip you up in the right hands. You know what happens to a Victor that takes 2 separate 74 point alphas to the Torso (which part is irrelevant as you only need to knock out 1 torso)? They drop...HARD...even another Atlas cannot easily spread that much damage...it just is what it is...

The trick is timing your torso twist to line up with their 'look back at you and alpha' while you close within 90m

[Ultimax]

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

2 PPCs and 2 AC5s is a very solid amount of firepower since it's delivered to the same spot each strike. Maybe you need to...

2x PPCs and 2x AC 5s is a 30 point alpha. My stalkers run a 40 to 60 point alpha, without any kind of missile.



Delivered to the same spot every single time?

Are your targets just standing their picking daisies while you repeatedly fire on them?


Which is it? Is it easy to repeatedly hit the same spot every, single, time, or is it impossible to repeatedly hit the Victor's XL side torsos?

You seem unable to decide which version of this story you like better.

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

That besides, you can save quite abit of tonnage using AC10 instead of the 2x 5s on a VTR. Frees up your other gun ports quite nicely.

What other gun ports?

No victor has more than 3 energy slots, and every victor that has 3 energy slots generally does run an AC 10 or 2x AC 5s because they cant slot an AC 20 and they can't slot 2x UAC 5s.

The Victors that can slot those, can't slot more than 2 Energy weapons.



That leaves a few missle racks.

Now go look at the other mech chassis I already mentioned, the Stalker, the Battlemaster, the Highlander - take a look at how many "gun ports" they have. Which is fine,

I have no problem with this - but the idea that Victors have "the firepower of an <Insert heavier assault mech here> is just silly with 2B/6E Battlermasters and 3xB/6E Banshees, or 6E/4M Stalkers.


Maybe once SRMs are fixed those 2-3 missile hardpoints will be good for something, but good luck getting 2x AC 5s, 2x PPCs, a 325-350 XL engine and a full compliment of SRMs onto a Victor.

Mavairo, on 24 April 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

It can do the job pretty reliably especially with SRMs being as pants as they are. Especially since if you have half a brain there's already a furball erupting by the time you put your VTR in harms way.

Every few posts you create a new, completely unrelated reason as to why the Victor nerf made sense.

1st it was the Awesome's hitboxes.

2nd it was "jump jets"

Now its "SRM hit detection"


This is starting to sound like the grand unification theory of ancient astronauts.

[Gyrok]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

I think that it needs to be near the Atlas. Remember, it is only 20 tons lighter than said Atlas. The Locust is 20 tons lighter than the Cicada and has much greater straight line speed and only marginally better agility statistics (to the point where they're hardly even noticable). The benefit of the Victor is its point to point speed. THAT is what makes it a great mech. Prior to the change, it was more agile than the Awesome 9M while weighing the same and having the same engine cap. How is that remotely balanced? It isn't and that was the problem.

I am a believer that, once the Heavies get passed over and tweaked, you'll see less of a hinderance to your game play in the Victor. It isn't hard to notice the change and it does take some getting used to but it isn't a game breaker. The big thing is that you now have to realize where you're going and what is there when you get there because you no longer have the ability to dance like an 80 ton Shadowhawk. That was the goal of the change and I think that they hit it.

The big kicker is that the Victor and the Highlander both got hit twice with an agility pass over on top of a JJ change. It is my firm belief that PGI handled the JJ nerf in the wrong way because the Assaults got hit with it in a MASSIVE way while the Lights got little to no change at all. Recharge time is still a tad short, there isn't any real heat associated with JJs, and it was really always the Light mechs, in combination with their ability to avoid damage due to being so spindly, that were the problems. Heavy and Assault poptarters just needed heat added to JJs and a recharge nerf. So, I think what a lot of people don't like about the Victor and Highlander changes comes from the combination of changes. A clan mate of mine went on to say the other night that he sold most of his Victors and Highlanders (owned all of them including the heroes) and pulled all of the JJs off of his remaining Highlanders.

The issue here is that the Cicada WAY outperforms all other mediums in agility...why? Because it is a heavy light mech.

The Victor gives up a whopping 140 points of armor to the Atlas...for the same mobility and less firepower? With only straight line speed as an advantage? No sir, not at all.

The Highlander has a better torso twist ratio, better turning ratio, and better arm tracking than a Victor with a XL325 and a Victor with XL350. The highlander also has an extra 10 tons of firepower and the difference in mobility is not THAT big.

The Victor nerf was unfounded...and unnecessary.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

QQ my stellar assault mech got nerfed to being an average mech

Instead of changing my playstyle and playing an 80 ton mech like an 80 ton mech, I'm going to complain about not being able to move like a Dragon!

[Ultimax]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 24 April 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

QQ my stellar assault mech got nerfed to being an average mech

Instead of changing my playstyle and playing an 80 ton mech like an 80 ton mech, I'm going to complain about not being able to move like a Dragon!

Understanding twist speed requires basic division and multiplication.


It doesn't twist like an 80 ton mech, it twists like a 100 ton mech.

If it twisted like an 80 ton mech, this thread wouldn't exist and I wouldn't be posting in it.




Engine Rating x 20 / Chassis Tonnage = Twist Speed


That's the whole formula.


Calculate it and compare it to the Victor's current twist speed before you say things that are wrong or worse, an outright lie.

You don't even need to own a Victor, Smurfy has you covered. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

Edited by Ultimatum X, 24 April 2014 - 08:56 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Ultimatum X, on 24 April 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

Yeah, it sure as shit didnt twist like a 100 ton mech before the nerf,
it didnt turn like a 80 ton mech either, and you cant even count the AWS because its the exception to the rule.

It was too good, and all I see after reading this thread is a bunch of crybabies who piloted a mech that was too agile for its tonnage, and now that thats gone they cant play it good anymore.

Its small for an assault mech, has some of the best hitboxes in the game, well armored, packs a lot of firepower, runs XLs better than any other Assault, has jumpjets, and has the best hero mech variant.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 24 April 2014 - 09:04 PM.