347 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

KharnZor, on 11 April 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

Nail on the head.


Ramble on about numbers all you like but they are meaningless without the human manipulating them.
The intangible element (i.e skill) is what counts at the end of the day. If you cant cope with the nerf then don't pilot a Victor. Its that simple.

We aren't talking about skill here. No logical reason for a Victor to torso twist the same speed as Atlas. Numbers are meaningless? Numbers define this game... Drop all Lights w/JJs torso twist speed and turn speed by 20% since numbers are meaningless. As a matter of fact, why don't you buff Atlas turn speed and twist speed by 50%, because numbers are meaningless so it shouldn't really effect anything.

I don't see what the point of posting archived pre-nerf stats. But since you posted them, K/D of 2.14 in your best Victor (I assume that's your best because you posted it)? And you are arguing that it's all about skill?

Listen, I don't think any of us are arguing that the Victor is useless. I certainly am not, it is still very effective at some things. It does, however, feel WRONG that it torso twists like an Atlas when it's only 5 tons heavier than an Orion.

Alas, for some reason a large following supports this 20% nerf to put the Victor in line with an Atlas and thinks its justified. I thought a 10% nerf would have been more reasonable given that NO other Mech has seen such a huge adjustment, but apparently that's too much to ask. If PGI started with 10%, you guys would not be arguing that they should reduce it another 10%, but since they did 20% all it once you guys think that it makes sense. Way to blindly follow.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 11 April 2014 - 08:18 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Prezimonto, on 04 April 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

I needs to excel at something for it's weight class. Meaning it should be comparable to 75 to 85 ton mech. And if it's designed to be nimble it should come with draw backs to make sure it can't do that AND deal big damage at range.

I completely understand that mechs need drawbacks, but we focus on seemingly odd choices that all end up making all assaults good jump snipers. I want my Victor to be a blitzer not a quarterback.

The Mediums deserve the same right?. The Heavies got it pretty good. The Assaults and Lights are end scale.

Would the Blitzer vs QB analogy not be more a function of "Build" then weight class. The Victor has a good weapons mix.

Go to to Smurfys' and select the Victor section. Now scroll up one tier? What is missing? Any purple at all. A check mark in the JJ column and 4 of 6 have limited engine sizes.

They are both 80t chassis. What could be the justification?

Ancih, on 04 April 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

AWS-9M @300
Torso Yaw: 82°/s
Torso Pitch: 46°/s
Arm Speed: 168°/s

Victor @300 pre nerf
Torso Yaw: 75°/s (now 60°/s)
Torso Pitch: 42°/s (now 33°/s)
Arm speed: 168°/s (now 151°/s)

Victor @300 post nerf
Torso Yaw: 60°/s
Torso Pitch: 33°/s
Arm speed: 151°/s

--

AWS-9M @385
Torso Yaw: 105°/s
Torso Pitch: 59°/s
Arm Speed: 216°/s

Victor @385 pre nerf
Torso Yaw: 96°/s
Torso Pitch: 54°/s
Arm Speed: 216°/s

Victor @385 post nerf
Torso Yaw: 77°/s
Torso Pitch: 43°/s
Arm Speed: 194°/s


edited for mistype on last engine size

Thank you good sir.

[Almond Brown]

Harathan, on 04 April 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

I'm just going to sell my Victor and buy a Battlemaster or Stalker instead. Why would I want an 80ton mech that was designed for close combat to have the maneuverability of a 100 ton mech, when I can pilot an 85 ton mech that gives me 5 extra tons to play with and is more manouverable despite being heavier and NOT designed for close combat? The nerf was too much, just like the LRM boost. They've already pulled that back a bit, now they need to fix this mess too.

There comes a point when you literally have your Cake and are eating as well. The Victor was fast, tough, potent and can Jump.

Word was that you should get to only choose 2 of those 3 vital stats, (JJ are really good icing) when things are considered even quasi equal.

When everyone else within a 15t radius are all standing around going "WTF!" there is obviously an issue. No one like losing their Cake, but if it can't be shared, then no one should get any.

Edited by Almond Brown, 11 April 2014 - 09:35 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Ancih, on 04 April 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

YAY
I think some people need some more comparison

AWS-9M @385
Torso Yaw: 105°/s
Torso Pitch: 59°/s
Arm Speed: 216°/s

same tonnage, max engine
if that doesn't open their eyes I don't know what else to say

That is absolutely wonderful... no really it is. To bad that "Barn" your driving maxes out at 60.7 kph sans tweak.

[Gas Guzzler]

Almond Brown, on 11 April 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

That is absolutely wonderful... no really it is. To bad that "Barn" your driving maxes out at 60.7 kph sans tweak.

The 9M will top out much higher than 60.7

[Almond Brown]

SLDF LawDog, on 06 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Ya, I Found it funny they want us to blow up the forums also.

The Forums have a C.A.S.E. patch applied. No worries about blow back.

[Almond Brown]

Nauht, on 06 April 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

Yeah I'm done responding to you. Obvious you're one of the anecdotal crowd.

Easy there. Don't make us decide which is worse. The "anecdotal crowd" or the "spreadsheet warriors"

[Ultimax]

Almond Brown, on 11 April 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Easy there. Don't make us decide which is worse. The "anecdotal crowd" or the "spreadsheet warriors"

I promise you developers don't design games using anecdotes.

[Prezimonto]

Almond Brown, on 11 April 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

The Mediums deserve the same right?. The Heavies got it pretty good. The Assaults and Lights are end scale.

Would the Blitzer vs QB analogy not be more a function of "Build" then weight class. The Victor has a good weapons mix.

Go to to Smurfys' and select the Victor section. Now scroll up one tier? What is missing? Any purple at all. A check mark in the JJ column and 4 of 6 have limited engine sizes.

They are both 80t chassis. What could be the justification?



Thank you good sir.

The difference is the AWS has way more hard points, and they're spaced out around the mech so you can fit large weapons onto many of them. 6 energy(granted that's 2CT and 1 head so ML/MPL only but that's 3 other large energy weapons) and 1 missile (granted an SRM2 to pair with the ML's) OR it can go 3missile points with SRMs or SSRM's and 4 energy (with 3 big ones)

The 9B has just more variety.... wait what was I talking about? So lesson: as low hardpoint friendly as the Victors are (with fairly bad missile points) they should get less variety with the hard points... .I"m actually okay with that. If the 9B missile points were limited to 6 and 5... one SRM6 and one LRM5 for tubes... and if it had ghost heat of 1 for PPCs... so you can't pop tart the sucker it's be in a fine place. with 3 ballastic points in one arm a large amount of it's damage is in one spot if you've got 3AC's going... so it's likely using one or two hard points.

I guess I'm looking at those numbers compared to the AWS and I'm just thinking the AWS needs love, not that the Victor should be balanced too hard against the AWS. And again, I think strongly think mechs are much to versatile in this game(and I think at one point the designers felt the same way looking at the 9M hardpoint selection). A single variant shouldn't be able to be good at everything. The nerfs to the Victor leave it good at poptarting and nerfed it's ability to brawl. I just with the reverse had happened.

Edited by Prezimonto, 11 April 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Ancih, on 10 April 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

No offense but how irrelevent... No one is saying that Victors are nerfed to the point of beeing unusable. Honestly, you can argue your point better than this, unless you are just trolling. I hope you will try again but this time, with facts and relevent data and the constructive conclusions about Victor's torso speed relative to other mechs directly below and under its tonnage, and less with personal epeen irelevent data and subjective elitist attitude "conclusions".

Who knows, maybe with some effort and humility you can contribute to enlightening us with your wisdom and insightful vision and show us an angle we missed with a well explained and valid argument.

Excuse me, the repeated use of the term "ruined" directly indicates just that. This reads more like a child who's favorite toy got a ding in it and that isn't fair.

You chirp over and over about "facts and relevant data" on your spreadsheet. MWO is not fought on a spreadsheet, it is fought on the battlefield by Pilots. So maybe take a break from the spreadsheet data and fight with the new "dinged up" Victor and see how your K/D and or W/L is affected. The rest of it is starting to stink of bad "whine".

Past, on 10 April 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Does it Irk anyone with what they did to the Victor and the reasoning behind it and then in the Timber wolf announcement description they write:

We have engaged a new aggressor on the battlefield. It is massive yet has the agility and nimbleness which you would expect from a much lighter ˜Mech.

http://mwomercs.com/...-shots-revealed

So whats gonna happen there will they take everyone's money then a month later say well the Timberwolf isn't handling like the other heavy's so we are going to nerf the crap out of it so you will buy then next thing?

You're joking right? You have to be joking. That, or you have no idea what a Clan Mech is.

Ancih, on 11 April 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

again skill is irrelevent

\thread

LOL!

[Ultimax]

Almond Brown, on 11 April 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Excuse me, the repeated use of the term "ruined" directly indicates just that. This reads more like a child who's favorite toy got a ding in it and that isn't fair.

You chirp over and over about "facts and relevant data" on your spreadsheet. MWO is not fought on a spreadsheet, it is fought on the battlefield by Pilots. So maybe take a break from the spreadsheet data and fight with the new "dinged up" Victor and see how your K/D and or W/L is affected. The rest of it is starting to stink of bad "whine".

Do you really want to play it this way?


Let's see what happens when we make this about the Awesome's hitboxes or engine capacity.


Excuse me, the repeated use of the term "awful" directly indicates just that. This reads more like a child who's favorite toy got a ding in it and that isn't fair.

You chirp over and over about "facts and relevant data" on your spreadsheet. MWO is not fought on a spreadsheet, it is fought on the battlefield by Pilots. So maybe take a break from the spreadsheet data and fight with the "dinged up" Awesome and see how your K/D and or W/L is affected. The rest of it is starting to stink of bad "whine".


Should that be the stock answer when people have issues with the Awesome's design?

[Prezimonto]

Almond Brown, on 11 April 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Excuse me, the repeated use of the term "ruined" directly indicates just that. This reads more like a child who's favorite toy got a ding in it and that isn't fair.

You chirp over and over about "facts and relevant data" on your spreadsheet. MWO is not fought on a spreadsheet, it is fought on the battlefield by Pilots. So maybe take a break from the spreadsheet data and fight with the new "dinged up" Victor and see how your K/D and or W/L is affected. The rest of it is starting to stink of bad "whine".

I'm not saying the Victor's a bad mech. I'm saying it's good at a play style I don't like, and the play style I enjoy is much harder. The changes have removed the fun that *I* had with the chassis. Nothing more. It's just another example, for me, and other players who are sick of the stale game play, in general, that either the dev's don't understand the affects their balancing have on gameplay OR that they actually approve of assault poptarts as a valid and great way to play the game as opposed to an artifact of design decisions that happens to be really effective, and not represented by the source material.

In addition, the changes directly take a dump on the backstory, and main role for the Victor in the setting in favor of a contrived form of gameplay that's an artifact (or intended goal) of game design that I fairly well loath. So it's a double whammy for someone like me who actually enjoys the setting, and partly bought into the game on the promise of setting inclusive gameplay which we are driving further and further from with nearly every design decision.

I'm here on the forums, getting involved with data and spreadsheets because the game play actually isn't a lot of fun anymore, but I love the setting and I'm invested in the game... so I'm doing what I can to participate in the community in the hopes that things will become more fun again down the road.

Edited by Prezimonto, 11 April 2014 - 09:41 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 April 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

The 9M will top out much higher than 60.7

Now you tell us that.

Can I get one without that excessive XL CB overhead built in?

Perhaps everyone should just buy a BP. They go even faster right?

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

I promise you developers don't design games using anecdotes.

And I would bet MC that before the first spreadsheet ever saw the light, many an anecdote was traded between Dev about how best to proceed.

[Almond Brown]

Prezimonto, on 11 April 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

The difference is the AWS has way more hard points, and they're spaced out around the mech so you can fit large weapons onto many of them. 6 energy(granted that's 2CT and 1 head so ML/MPL only but that's 3 other large energy weapons) and 1 missile (granted an SRM2 to pair with the ML's) OR it can go 3missile points with SRMs or SSRM's and 4 energy (with 3 big ones)

The 9B has just more variety.... wait what was I talking about? So lesson: as low hardpoint friendly as the Victors are (with fairly bad missile points) they should get less variety with the hard points... .I"m actually okay with that. If the 9B missile points were limited to 6 and 5... one SRM6 and one LRM5 for tubes... and if it had ghost heat of 1 for PPCs... so you can't pop tart the sucker it's be in a fine place. with 3 ballastic points in one arm a large amount of it's damage is in one spot if you've got 3AC's going... so it's likely using one or two hard points.

I guess I'm looking at those numbers compared to the AWS and I'm just thinking the AWS needs love, not that the Victor should be balanced too hard against the AWS. And again, I think strongly think mechs are much to versatile in this game(and I think at one point the designers felt the same way looking at the 9M hardpoint selection). A single variant shouldn't be able to be good at everything. The nerfs to the Victor leave it good at poptarting and nerfed it's ability to brawl. I just with the reverse had happened.

True enough, but sadly, all those Awesome hard points are difficult to utilize to a good max. As both Heat and short ranges hurt the Awesome.

An all energy build is ultimately Hot and adding in some Med to SR back up weapons then force the Awesome to go into ranges it rarely should go, due to both its over-all size and lack of run-away speed.

Your not alone in that wish apparently but it seems obvious that nerfing Poppers would have affected many more chassis than just those singled out by the Community as in need of it.

[Prezimonto]

Almond Brown, on 11 April 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Your not alone in that wish apparently but it seems obvious that nerfing Poppers would have affected many more chassis than just those singled out by the Community as in need of it.

A really simple fix would have been to decrease the Ghost heat limit for energy weapons on the Chassis by 1. You then have to chain fire those PPC's, LL's or equip ML. That affects only the Victor, or even only one variant of the Victor if you want the Dragon Slayer to still be a poptart... nerf it's mobility, but not all of them... do something different for some of them. Even capping the engine limit on the Dragon slayer at 330 wouldn't be the worst nerf.

Edited by Prezimonto, 11 April 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[Ultimax]

Almond Brown, on 11 April 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

True enough, but sadly, all those Awesome hard points are difficult to utilize to a good max. As both Heat and short ranges hurt the Awesome.

An all energy build is ultimately Hot and adding in some Med to SR back up weapons then force the Awesome to go into ranges it rarely should go, due to both its over-all size and lack of run-away speed.

Your not alone in that wish apparently but it seems obvious that nerfing Poppers would have affected many more chassis than just those singled out by the Community as in need of it.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

I'm just frustrated that one of my favorite mech's has been pushed further into one tactic as opposed to the tactic I'd much rather play it with.

I have a 9S with an AC 20 and 2x LPLs, it's my most fun to play "when it works".

Which isn't often, because aside from brawling range being really hard to get into and survive (which I'm OK with, that's part of the fun) the Victor now works off of the Atlas' turning calculation - except it weighs 80 tons.

My other Victor builds with Some combination of ACs & Energy, that hang back at range do just fine, and poptarts are still poptarting.


So really, what was actually accomplished?

I simply think they nerfed too hard, this wouldn't be the first time an MMO developer used a hammer when a scalpel would have sufficed.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Stopped playing my Victors because Paul ruined them. They were fun to play and great at getting inside to kill Poptarts, now they are utter crap. Paul was attempting to nerf the Poptarts with his move and instead did little to affect them but kill the brawlers who counter the poptarts.

His idea of balance is to make big swings and then make a little concession. So he will nerf something way to much and then give you back just a little to shut you up. You think it's better then nothing and he gets what he wanted.

[Gas Guzzler]

Almond Brown, on 11 April 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Now you tell us that.

Can I get one without that excessive XL CB overhead built in?

Perhaps everyone should just buy a BP. They go even faster right?

What's a BP? You want us to buy an oil company?

Couldn't resist. Anyway, the PB hardpoints aren't to my liking, but I've actually had fun with the 9M, can't wait to get all basics unlocked.

Just remember, just because we think a Victor should torso twist faster than an Atlas, does not mean we are lacking in the skill department

[Ancih]

80t
Victor
Torso Yaw: 75°/s (now 60°/s)
Torso Pitch: 42°/s (now 33°/s)
Arm speed: 168°/s (now 151°/s)

--

75t
Orion
Torso Yaw: 80°/s
Torso Pitch: 45°/s
Arm Speed: 180°/s

--

70t
Cataphract can equip JJ
Torso Yaw: 85°/s
Torso Pitch: 48°/s
Arm Speed: 192°/s


65t
Catapult (can use JJ)
Torso Yaw: 92°/s
Torso Pitch: 51°/s
Arm Speed: 207°/s

Jagermech (can't use JJ)
Torso Yaw: 92°/s
Torso Pitch: 51°/s
Arm Speed: 207°/s

same tonnage = exact same torso agility


60t
Quickdraw (can use JJ)
Torso Yaw: 100°/s
Torso Pitch: 56°/s
Arm Speed: 225°/s

Dragon (can't use JJ)
Torso Yaw: 100°/s
Torso Pitch: 56°/s
Arm Speed: 225°/s

again, same tonnage = exact same torso agility

Do you see the pattern here? Heavies are well balanced with each other; at same tonnage, same agility, slower than lighter mechs, faster than heavier mechs, scaling linearly with engine rating... JJ have nothing to do with it, same for hardpoints, completely different subject, so again Victor is the exception.

Edited by Ancih, 11 April 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 April 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

What's a BP? You want us to buy an oil company?

Couldn't resist. Anyway, the PB hardpoints aren't to my liking, but I've actually had fun with the 9M, can't wait to get all basics unlocked.

Just remember, just because we think a Victor should torso twist faster than an Atlas, does not mean we are lacking in the skill department

The skill thing? Thought never crossed my mind. It is interesting to see the reaction when what happened, basically, to the Awesome way back, is now impacting the Victor. I have 3 Awesome's, all fully Mastered and they now have tarpaulins over them. Oh they get out some but only when I am feeling stupidly frisky or am more drunk than I really should be.

I feel the pain of everyone and perhaps tweaks will be made. We have not reached the end game just yet, I hope not anyways.