347 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Nauht, on 01 April 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Without cutting and pasting it again - the Victor never, ever outturned any medium.
I based that last post on the Victor having a 350 and the medium having a 260 and the medium could still outturn the Victor and was more maneuverable and faster.

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Prior to the change, the Victor was an 80 ton medium mech. By that, it was moving at nearly the same speeds (75-80 doesn't equal 98 but near to it) as medium mechs while having nearly the same agility

Would either of you be able to post up some data/numbers to support your opposing assertions?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 April 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[Rakansen]

Balancing in this game seems like it'll always be akin to walking on a razor's edge, but I feel like Paul and PGI are taking the wrong approach for just about every change they make. The entire selling point of the Victor is its agility and maneuverability in the form of an assault mech. It's not much better than using a sluggish Atlas or Highlander (if better at all), and you already have less armor, less tonnage, and XL as drawbacks to balance the Victor's agility. Take that away, and why bother using it over a different assault? It is (was?) a key characteristic of the chassis in MWO, as it was a key characteristic in Battletech.

I understand PGI is trying to find a solution to the whole poptarting/meta issue, but the truth is that there's no easy way to do it. Some ways are worse than others, however, and this chassis nerf to the Victor is one of them. It doesn't actually solve anything - people will figure out something else. Not to mention, whenever a new chassis comes along at 70+ tons and sports agility as a selling point, what will happen then? Are we going to see that nerfed too?

The Victor should be put back THEN rebalanced in small increments to find the sweet spot, not the huge lumps that Paul seems to love so much. I like this game and franchise, and I want to see MWO succeed, but I am not happy at all with how the team is handling gameplay and development. The $30 mech I purchased is now hardly what I expected when I gave PGI my money, so thanks for that. :/

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

So, again, stop crying about it and either adapt to how the mech should be played, move on to another mech that operates like the Victor used to, or go to another game.

It's not a matter of being able to adapt to the changes. You're missing the whole point of the post which is the overly drastic change to a specific mech chassis, particularly if people have spent good money on it.

[DeathlyEyes]

Ultimatum X, on 02 April 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Would either of you be able to post up some data/numbers to support your opposing assertions?

I don't have screenshots versus mediums but I have some of the Victor vs Highlander, Victor vs Atlas, I edited one of my posts to include this. I don't have screenshots of the Victor vs a medium but when I get home I can put an XL 310 in a medium mech and then use a simple 20% addition to the current Victor stats and see how it compares.

[Ultimax]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

I think that it needs to be near the Atlas. Remember, it is only 20 tons lighter than said Atlas.

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 April 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Trebutche is only 20 tons lighter than the Victor it should handle similar to a Victor.

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I've tried to reason this out with you. You don't want to listen to it so I'll leave the discussion at an end here.

To be fair, he is simply using your reasoning. 20 tons difference in either direction is two very, very different extremes.

You can't state that it should be "near an atlas" because its "only" 20 tons lighter, and then ignore statements that point out the same difference between the Victor is "only" 20 tons heavier than some mechs.



In a game where 100 tons is the maximum build load, saying "only 20 tons" doesn't really make sense.

20 tons is alot, it's a full 325xl Engine, it's more than 2x UACs. It's an AC20, 4 tons of ammo and 4 medium lasers.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 April 2014 - 01:02 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Rakansen, on 02 April 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

It's not a matter of being able to adapt to the changes. You're missing the whole point of the post which is the overly drastic change to a specific mech chassis, particularly if people have spent good money on it.

No! You and people like you are missing the point. The PGI devs clearly stated why they did what they did and why they're going to do the same thing to Heavy mechs. In their eyes, Assault mechs (read: Victor and Highlander) were operating at level which they were not comfortable. That means that they were able to turn too quickly and, as such, were no longer operating like Assault mechs. A lot of the Heavies (read: probably anything that isn't a Dragon or Quickdraw) are performing the same way and will be dealt with the same way.

Look, when you essentially negate the desire to play an entire weight class of mechs because you can get almost the same speed and agility without sacrificing ANYTHING, something is wrong and it needs to be fixed. That isn't saying that they fixed it too hard with the Victor and Highlander. (bolded, underlined, and resized for added emphasis) Rather, it is just saying that they addressed the problem. It is better to upset the people that are buying these two mechs and appease those that are buying and wanting to play all of the others than it is to continue to allow outliers to exist. That is good business.

I drove the Victor prior the changes and I'm driving the Victor now. All this did was force me to play my Assault mech with a bit more purpose. I can't just walk around a corner not caring what is around there because my speed, agility, and JJs will get me out of the problem. I've taken on 2 Shadowhawks in my Victor before and lived while taking out one and crippling another simply because of my speed and ability to jump around spreading the damage.

The biggest issue is the combination of the agility sweep AND the JJ nerf. It feels much worse than it really is.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 02 April 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

No! You and people like you are missing the point. The PGI devs clearly stated why they did what they did and why they're going to do the same thing to Heavy mechs. In their eyes, Assault mechs (read: Victor and Highlander) were operating at level which they were not comfortable. That means that they were able to turn too quickly and, as such, were no longer operating like Assault mechs. A lot of the Heavies (read: probably anything that isn't a Dragon or Quickdraw) are performing the same way and will be dealt with the same way.

Look, when you essentially negate the desire to play an entire weight class of mechs because you can get almost the same speed and agility without sacrificing ANYTHING, something is wrong and it needs to be fixed. That isn't saying that they fixed it too hard with the Victor and Highlander. Rather, it is just saying that they addressed the problem. It is better to upset the people that are buying these two mechs and appease those that are buying and wanting to play all of the others than it is to continue to allow outliers to exist. That is good business.

Nothing drastic needed to be changed with the Mechs themselves but with the weapons they were carrying. If specific chassis/characters need to be altered massively because of a few weapons something is flawed with another mechanic in the game. There will be a desire to play medium mechs because of weight restrictions in the near future. Furthermore I was already taking my shadowhawk until it hit the same ELO bracket as my Assaults and I was needing to carry much more. The only reason I don't take my Shadowhawk is because match maker decides I have to lose and lops me on missmatched teams. I love my shadowhawk but it can't quite carry like my Dragon Slayer in queue. In terms of maneuverability I felt a noticeable difference and preffered my shadowhawk.

As for altering 2 mechs to help the community as a greater whole. That is bad business. They just demonstrated they don't care about individuals and will do whatever it takes to make a quick buck. As soon as people start complaining about whatever mech you spent money on and prodominantly use, PGI will make it useless.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 02 April 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 April 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

Nothing drastic needed to be changed with the Mechs themselves but with the weapons they were carrying. If specific chassis/characters need to be altered massively because of a few weapons something is flawed with another mechanic in the game. There will be a desire to play medium mechs because of weight restrictions in the near future. Furthermore I was already taking my shadowhawk until it hit the same ELO bracket as my Assaults and I was needing to carry much more. The only reason I don't take my Shadowhawk is because match maker decides I have to lose and lops me on missmatched teams. I love my shadowhawk but it can't quite carry like my Dragon Slayer in queue. In terms of maneuverability I felt a noticeable difference and preffered my shadowhawk.

As for altering 2 mechs to help the community as a greater whole. That is bad business. They just demonstrated they don't care about individuals and will do whatever it takes to make a quick buck. As soon as people start complaining about whatever mech you spent money on and prodominantly use, PGI will make it useless.

Now you're arguing apples and oranges. The weapons that they carry and how they do damage is a seperate issue entirely and something that is plagueing mechs of all flavors. The point still stands that the Victor, much more so than the Highlander, was able to avoid damage much better than other mechs. The Victor was more nimble than the Awesome 9M when they have the same engine caps and weigh the same. That isn't balance.

To your last point, that is bad business. The cardinal rule of retail business is that it is always easier to keep your consumer base than it is to find new ones. In this case, the changes might have offended the players who played ONLY the Victor and Highlander but it was a change that helped, either directly or indirectly, those that played all of the other mechs. The people that love playing ACs are going to be pissed when PGI changes them BUT the change is for the better health of the game and, therefore, is good for all players whether they use or don't use ACs.

I get being pissed at having your favorite toon nerfed or changed. Been playing online games since UO so I'm used to having my toys taken away from me. I might be pissed about it but it is done because I'm looking at the game on a micro level versus those looking at it in a macro level and, more importantly, long term.

[Mikros04]

The whole point of taking a Victor was it's mobility.

It is only 5 tons more than the Orion, and 10 tons more than the Cataphract. It should feel more like one of them, and less like a Stalker. Saying it feels like an Atlas to me is going too far, but for me it feels very much like my Misery.

I am assuming this "fix" will get dialed back a little. Otherwise I'm afraid there won't be many Victors on the field.

EDIT: whoops, stalker is lighter than I thought >.< so ahhhhh nm. Either way though, I think there are going be much much fewer Victors until this gets another adjustment.

Edited by Mikros04, 02 April 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[LawDawg]

PGI is just going from extreme to the next. LRMs 120 > 175......saw all the complaints about that.

Same thing with the Victor. Just jump it to 20%.

Instead of doing these huge changes, do small ones over patches, and fine tune it. 5, 8, 10% till you get where you need to be.

Dont just smoke a mech or in the LRM case (which I think is fine), over do it.

[Rakansen]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Look, when you essentially negate the desire to play an entire weight class of mechs because you can get almost the same speed and agility without sacrificing ANYTHING, something is wrong and it needs to be fixed.

You DO sacrifice something: tonnage capacity, armor, and and survivability if you decide to use XL. Also, I've never heard of anybody saying "Jeez, the Victor is so manueverable, it makes me not want to play any assault mechs at all." I'm sorry, but no. What do you propose then? We make all mechs of each weight class handle exactly the same within the class but just with different hardpoints? That solves nothing. Let's make a Shadow Hawk and a Cicada handle very very similarly, since they're both mediums. Let's not give any regard to their intended/original purpose. While we're at it, let's keep the Victor and Atlas as they are - the Victor totally fills in the role of an Atlas no problem, right?

I know there are outliers. I know PGI wants to fix them. But I (along with others) am saying that they are not going about fixing this in a good way or with a good mindset. ie. Attacking specific chassis instead of reworking a mechanic at the source. That's basically putting a band-aid on the problem.

Again, making changes in rather significant amounts does more harm than good. It's essentially treating the game and community as a live test server. (I thought we left beta already? No? Could have sworn we did.)

[Iskareot]

The one real and ONLY real legit complaint was being sold (Yep I will say it) A BILL of goods that is now false.

Here, while sure (all things in the game are subject to change) this is no different then buying a expac and then they change the game it goes to. (Trust me that war has been lost already)...

"I BOUGHT MY VICTOR BASED ON ITS STATS AND USE AS THE MECH IT WAS SOLD AS"..... Now.... here is the issue right there.

The second that is said is the second it is a legit complaint even in a video game that is free with paid for items. More or less this could be a bait and switch... or even called missleading sale.

In other words if they had known it was going to be changed by 20% somewhere down the road or at anytime then it needed to be said prior. I bought mine and HAD it since day one... I never knew it was going to be changed so much in its operation. If I had known it was going to be would have I bought it... (Not the point at all). None the less it is a legit and fair complaint based on the mere factual comments.

IMAGINE buying a Clan Mech for 500 bucks... it had ECM and then 2 months later it didnt??? OH SHIT the out cry would be awful and really it would be a legit bait and switch feel.

Well this is no different.

[DeathlyEyes]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Now you're arguing apples and oranges. The weapons that they carry and how they do damage is a seperate issue entirely and something that is plagueing mechs of all flavors. The point still stands that the Victor, much more so than the Highlander, was able to avoid damage much better than other mechs. The Victor was more nimble than the Awesome 9M when they have the same engine caps and weigh the same. That isn't balance.

To your last point, that is bad business. The cardinal rule of retail business is that it is always easier to keep your consumer base than it is to find new ones. In this case, the changes might have offended the players who played ONLY the Victor and Highlander but it was a change that helped, either directly or indirectly, those that played all of the other mechs. The people that love playing ACs are going to be pissed when PGI changes them BUT the change is for the better health of the game and, therefore, is good for all players whether they use or don't use ACs.

I get being pissed at having your favorite toon nerfed or changed. Been playing online games since UO so I'm used to having my toys taken away from me. I might be pissed about it but it is done because I'm looking at the game on a micro level versus those looking at it in a macro level and, more importantly, long term.

I am not just pissed of having my "toys taken away." I don't want to see PGI driving the rest of the customer base away with all these unnecessary ridiculous changes. I do fine in my Dragon Slayer but others may not be having as much success. I don't want to see the community die from bad changes to the game.



My only deaths came in losses where my team was terrible due to match maker. Though my team generally is terrible due to match maker.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 02 April 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[Rakansen]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

To your last point, that is bad business. The cardinal rule of retail business is that it is always easier to keep your consumer base than it is to find new ones.

I'd like to take a risk by opening Pandora's box and remind everyone of the whole cool shot controversy. I'm under the impression that given the choice, PGI will take a slew of new players rather than retain older ones.

[LawDawg]

Iskareot, on 02 April 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

"I BOUGHT MY VICTOR BASED ON ITS STATS AND USE AS THE MECH IT WAS SOLD AS"..... Now.... here is the issue right there.

That right there sums up my Dragon Slayer.......

[DeathlyEyes]

Rakansen, on 02 April 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

I'd like to take a risk by opening Pandora's box and remind everyone of the whole cool shot controversy. I'm under the impression that given the choice, PGI will take a slew of new players rather than retain older ones.

Not to mention the 3rd person fiasco.

[LawDawg]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 April 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Not to mention the 3rd person fiasco.

Slew of "New" sir? All 186 of them vise the 3499 that voted HELL NO!! But They still did it. Oh PGI, How we love to hate you.

[DeathlyEyes]

Mikros04, on 02 April 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

The whole point of taking a Victor was it's mobility.

It is only 5 tons more than the Orion, and 10 tons more than the Cataphract. It should feel more like one of them, and less like a Stalker. Saying it feels like an Atlas to me is going too far, but for me it feels very much like my Misery.

I am assuming this "fix" will get dialed back a little. Otherwise I'm afraid there won't be many Victors on the field.

EDIT: whoops, stalker is lighter than I thought >.< so ahhhhh nm. Either way though, I think there are going be much much fewer Victors until this gets another adjustment.

By the way, it handles exactly the same as an Atlas, I attatched a screenshot proving this earlier in the thread.

EDIT: oops I didn't actually post them earlier here you guys go. Atlas and Victor with the same size engine:

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 02 April 2014 - 02:13 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

I will say this again the VIctor is closer to a heavy than to an Atlas. It was always ment to be that way. The number one problem was the problem with jump jets that was not specifically a Victor problem. Close range brawling Victors were always good but not so good they broke the game. It was the jump sniping that was getting thread after thread after thread if you notice. So lets look at what happened.....

Jump jets get nurfed a huge amount on assaults. Besides making it so you needed more jump jets (a good change) they also changed how long they take to charge and turn rates for assaults. These changes are all fine alone. They were a huge nurf to the Victor. But then they did a huge secondary nurf to turning and torso twist of the Victor. At this point they had over done the nurfing. Victors are ment to be fast and maneuverable. As part of this you use a big engine and have less room for weopons and armor. And the Victor has limited hard points compared to many of the other assaults. So now you have a mech that is really not maneuverable enough to make up for the lower fire power at least in brawling. It still works fine as a sniper.

And that is not to say it is impossible to use Victors now but there are probably better choices in assaults. But it is no longer good at the role it was designed for.

Probably a good balance would be to ease back a little the nurf on the JJs for assaults and the turning etc for the Victor. Not all the way back to pre nurf but in between. And this just fits with PGI. It is hard to balance things and they tend to go to far one way or the other. Recent example being LRMs.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 02 April 2014 - 02:06 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hey, here are some numbers that i posted in another thread:

Atlas with a STD 300 has a torso yaw speed of 60 deg/s
Victor with a STD 320 has a torso yaw speed of 64 deg/s
Orion with a STD 300 has a torso yaw speed of 80 deg/s

The Victor should be about the same as the Orion here given it has a slightly bigger engine and slightly more tons. It is barely above the Atlas with a bigger engine!

[Coralld]

I'd like to point something out... People are complaining about the Victor agility nerf and yet 90% of the time people get a Victor and mount it for PPC+AC FLD alpha meta cheese, where, ironically enough, you really don't need agility.
Sure there are people like my self who use it for brawling and this nerf does hurt it a bit but the sad fact is the vast majority outfit it for the FLD PPC AC meta.