61 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

Daekar, on 03 April 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

Bishop has it. If you look at the proportioning of the Raven model, the legs are huge. HUGE. They easily take up more screen real estate than the body. I never ever bother shooting Ravens in the body - damage spreads too easily. I guarantee that the last 10 Ravens I've killed have all been legged, possibly double-legged, and that's not hit boxes that's my conscious decision based on the appearance of the model.

Perfect demonstration. Thank you.

The issue is that the hit boxes themselves, even if that is your focus, is extremely overblown compared to the rest of the mech.

I cannot count how many times the legs are the first thing damaged, even by LRM's. There is a distinct issue with this mech. Be it the hit boxes(which is an issue), the overall size of the model(which is an issue)... This isn't a simple 'lights get legged' issue.. but one in which one particular light mech among all of the light mechs get legged at a disproportionate amount.

Edited by Foxfire, 03 April 2014 - 04:52 PM.

[Daekar]

Foxfire, on 03 April 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Perfect demonstration. Thank you.

The issue is that the hit boxes themselves, even if that is your focus, is extremely overblown compared to the rest of the mech.

I cannot count how many times the legs are the first thing damaged, even by LRM's. There is a distinct issue with this mech. Be it the hit boxes(which is an issue), the overall size of the model(which is an issue)... This isn't a simple 'lights get legged' issue.. but one in which one particular light mech among all of the light mechs get legged at a disproportionate amount.

Does this mean you're also advocating for smaller Centurions and Dragons that don't have protruding CTs?

I mean, I'm perfectly willing to accept the possibility that the invisible hitboxes are a tad large on Raven legs, but I'm afraid the model geometry isn't going to change... the Raven has always been a beak on legs and it will always be a beak on legs. It's just part of the identity of the mech, like the barndoor width of the Awesome.

Just like the damage-attracting spell cast on my Catapult CT that renders it a poor brawler, the legs on the Raven do the same thing - which is OK, it's an electronics carrier, not a brawler. Make sure you've got an assault battle-buddy to soak fire and you'll do a bit better.

[Foxfire]

Daekar, on 03 April 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

Does this mean you're also advocating for smaller Centurions and Dragons that don't have protruding CTs?

I mean, I'm perfectly willing to accept the possibility that the invisible hitboxes are a tad large on Raven legs, but I'm afraid the model geometry isn't going to change... the Raven has always been a beak on legs and it will always be a beak on legs. It's just part of the identity of the mech, like the barndoor width of the Awesome.

Just like the damage-attracting spell cast on my Catapult CT that renders it a poor brawler, the legs on the Raven do the same thing - which is OK, it's an electronics carrier, not a brawler. Make sure you've got an assault battle-buddy to soak fire and you'll do a bit better.

I am.

I do think that mediums and many heavies are oversized. There really needs to be a complete review of mech sizes in context with how this game functions.

*edits to add* And that mediums across the board should be sized much more closely with the cicada.


Yes, there are mechs that are 'larger' in the BT universe, than their size dictates... but that is in a game in which there are completely random roles on hit locations, where the actual 'size' of the mech doesn't matter.. only the what the defense modifiers add to the roles for the mech.

So yes, I think there needs to be a review on sizing of the mechs to be more consistant across the board so that you don't end up with oversized mechs, such as the Raven, the Shadowhawk, and the Quickdraw, in comparison with other mechs of their respective levels.

Edited by Foxfire, 03 April 2014 - 06:11 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Foxfire, on 03 April 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Perfect demonstration. Thank you.

The issue is that the hit boxes themselves, even if that is your focus, is extremely overblown compared to the rest of the mech.

I cannot count how many times the legs are the first thing damaged, even by LRM's. There is a distinct issue with this mech. Be it the hit boxes(which is an issue), the overall size of the model(which is an issue)... This isn't a simple 'lights get legged' issue.. but one in which one particular light mech among all of the light mechs get legged at a disproportionate amount.

Pretty sure the hit boxes match the actual legs, at least that is the line from the devs after they reduced the raven leg hitboxes once already. So short of the hit boxes being SMALLER than the actual dimensions of the game models legs, not sure what they could do. And sorry, but if I hit the picture, i bloody well expect it to register the damage!

[Bishop Steiner]

Foxfire, on 03 April 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

I am.

I do think that mediums and many heavies are oversized. There really needs to be a complete review of mech sizes in context with how this game functions.

*edits to add* And that mediums across the board should be sized much more closely with the cicada.


Yes, there are mechs that are 'larger' in the BT universe, than their size dictates... but that is in a game in which there are completely random roles on hit locations, where the actual 'size' of the mech doesn't matter.. only the what the defense modifiers add to the roles for the mech.

So yes, I think there needs to be a review on sizing of the mechs to be more consistant across the board so that you don't end up with oversized mechs, such as the Raven, the Shadowhawk, and the Quickdraw, in comparison with other mechs of their respective levels.

Sadly, this won't happen, almost guaranteed. Firstly, almost all the mechs are oversized. But depending on where you start as the "basis" you might be shocked. Because if the Atlas, for instance is the model, then all the Lights actually nedd to get substantially bigger.


Right now, the two most "correct" mechs, proportionately, have been the Jenner and the Hunchback. Using them as a standard, the Heavies and Assaults, almost all need to shrink (and dear god so do all the 55 ton mediums), and Mechs like the Spider, Locust and Commando all need to get bigger. The Raven might shrink some, but guess what? The Beak and the Legs will still be the largest, most visible parts. So they will STILL take the majority of your damage.

Again, barring a literal redesign of the legs of the ingame model the legs will not get better.

[Mazzyplz]

Foxfire, on 02 April 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Yep.. they increased the size of the leg and rear CT hit box during the whole Super Raven fiasco last year as a stop gap fix until they could get HSR working for the mech..

They got the HSR working and forgot to remove the stopgap measure which is where we get to the current state of the Raven.

OH so HSR is fixed?
that's good news!!

so no more of this?
https://www.dropbox....a/spdhitreg.wmv

because 2 weeks ago we had a lot of this, you're saying it was fixed this patch?!?

GOOD!! thanks!! wow it sure took a long time didn't it??

do you have any source from this patch or last one stating how they fixed the hitreg finally???
would love to see it. maybe i missed it?

Edited by Mazzyplz, 03 April 2014 - 07:57 PM.

[Equalizer]

Mazzyplz, on 03 April 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

OH so HSR is fixed?
that's good news!!

so no more of this?
https://www.dropbox....a/spdhitreg.wmv

because 2 weeks ago we had a lot of this, you're saying it was fixed this patch?!?

GOOD!! thanks!! wow it sure took a long time didn't it??

do you have any source from this patch or last one stating how they fixed the hitreg finally???
would love to see it. maybe i missed it?

I believe he is referring to the time when HSR was first implemented - Ravens tended to be near invulnerable before that so PGI increased their leg hit box sizes in an attempt for a patchwork balance. As for the HSR itself, it's still 50/50 - either it works or it does not, in the case of lights more like 20/80....

[Foxfire]

Equalizer, on 03 April 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

I believe he is referring to the time when HSR was first implemented - Ravens tended to be near invulnerable before that so PGI increased their leg hit box sizes in an attempt for a patchwork balance. As for the HSR itself, it's still 50/50 - either it works or it does not, in the case of lights more like 20/80....

This.


Anyways, I would like to sit down and play around with shooting at the Raven vs other mechs in a controlled environment to research and document this more but I can't find a raven on the test grounds and, without private games, it isn't reasonable to do it inside a match.

[Veranova]

Yep please shrink the legs back down to size!
HSR is doing fine now!

[RealityCube]

I was going to start a thread about this the exact same day this thread was started, so here's the text anyway.

On the Raven

With the introduction of the Raven hero mech I thought I'd take the time to address some very serious problems that make the Raven non viable.

The first and most problematic issue is the size of the Raven's leg hitboxes. With the introduction of HSR it's no longer necessary to have leg hitboxes the size of an Atlas, anyone can leg a Raven almost immediately now and people aren't getting any less accurate as they play.

The second issue is that the rear CT hitbox seems to be either too large or sticking out of the front of my mech. There have been plenty of times where my torso is facing the attacking enemy and they shoot me in the front, only for me to take damage to rear CT. This is not a one off or once in a while thing, it's pretty common and I'm thinking that it comes from being torso twisted toward the enemy while the legs are facing a different way.

The third issue is that the hero Raven could have at least had either ECM, 1-2 energy hardpoints, or both. As it stands, even though the Raven is my favorite mech that's currently in the game, I will not purchase the hero mech. It sucks because I've been awaiting this for a very long time.

In conclusion, HSR, large leg hitbox, nerfs to ssrm's, large rear ct hitbox, and the shifting meta, have made the Raven (generally) unviable unless you're piloting a 3L, and even then it's not much compared to most other lights.

[SweetJackal]

Not only are the legs of the Raven out of proportion but the Raven itself is a huge light mech.

[Foxfire]

Speaking of which.. nothing like going from one slightly damaged leg and one pristine leg to one destroyed leg and one red leg in a single(I suspect stacked) strike from an artillery strike.

[SweetJackal]

Foxfire, on 05 April 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Speaking of which.. nothing like going from one slightly damaged leg and one pristine leg to one destroyed leg and one red leg in a single(I suspect stacked) strike from an artillery strike.

As a Light Mech you should have the awareness and the mobility never be in one. I have no problem with a Light Mech getting wrecked by an Arty Strike that hit them.

If you want to poke at the Strikes then either hammer for more bombs, less damage a bomb and equal total damage, even damage spread or the removal of headshots from Strikes (like they did with Missiles for Obvious Reasons.)

[Darth Futuza]

I dunno Ravens are suppose to be legged, that's always how its been done since 1990. Why make them have invincible legs now?

[Equalizer]

Darth Futuza, on 05 April 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

I dunno Ravens are suppose to be legged, that's always how its been done since 1990. Why make them have invincible legs now?

Don't think anyone here advocates for invincible legs, we just want them back the way they used to be before the hit box nerf. They'll still be huge, only difference would be you'll need to aim for them as with all other lights, instead of always scoring hits.

[Foxfire]

SuckyJack, on 05 April 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

As a Light Mech you should have the awareness and the mobility never be in one. I have no problem with a Light Mech getting wrecked by an Arty Strike that hit them.

If you want to poke at the Strikes then either hammer for more bombs, less damage a bomb and equal total damage, even damage spread or the removal of headshots from Strikes (like they did with Missiles for Obvious Reasons.)

I'd never knowingly ride through one.. but when you don't see it coming and have no chance to react..

Darth Futuza, on 05 April 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

I dunno Ravens are suppose to be legged, that's always how its been done since 1990. Why make them have invincible legs now?

Absolutely no requests are going on for invincible legs. Only legs that are more in keeping with others of the light class.

[Darth Futuza]

Its okay I understand that, I didn't mean invincible literally. Mostly I'm just trolling because I like blowing up Raven legs at the present.

[Grimm Peaper]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 April 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

Pretty sure the hit boxes match the actual legs, at least that is the line from the devs after they reduced the raven leg hitboxes once already. So short of the hit boxes being SMALLER than the actual dimensions of the game models legs, not sure what they could do. And sorry, but if I hit the picture, i bloody well expect it to register the damage!

Bishop, you have it backwards. The Raven leg hitboxes weren't made smaller, they were made larger. I posted about this a year ago. The Raven's leg hitboxes were changed to be LARGER than their actual model.

My post
http://mwomercs.com/...30#entry2298130

Dev Post:
http://mwomercs.com/...tbox-was-fixed/

[color=#959595]"The change was made to the Raven leg hitbox and resulted in the box not being drawn so tightly to the actual legs of the mech due to their small size." - Daemur, Pgi Staff[/color]

[RealityCube]

I should have screen shotted it but yesterday I had both my legs blown off by only LRM's. That's how huge the leg hitboxes are. My torso was ok, both legs destroyed.

[aniviron]

Daekar, on 03 April 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

Does this mean you're also advocating for smaller Centurions and Dragons that don't have protruding CTs?

I mean, I'm perfectly willing to accept the possibility that the invisible hitboxes are a tad large on Raven legs, but I'm afraid the model geometry isn't going to change... the Raven has always been a beak on legs and it will always be a beak on legs. It's just part of the identity of the mech, like the barndoor width of the Awesome.

Just like the damage-attracting spell cast on my Catapult CT that renders it a poor brawler, the legs on the Raven do the same thing - which is OK, it's an electronics carrier, not a brawler. Make sure you've got an assault battle-buddy to soak fire and you'll do a bit better.

An electronics carrier, not a brawler? I'm not sure how you see the 2X's loadout of lasers and SRMs and no electronics and the 4X's loadout of lasers, SRMs, and MGs and the Huggy's loadout of MGs and SRMs and see electronics mechs instead of brawlers.

I also don't think that OP is asking for preferential treatment of the Raven. I don't know if you played in beta, but Ravens got specifically nerfed because of how bad the netcode was. To quote IGP Daemur:

Quote

The change was made to the Raven leg hitbox and resulted in the box not being drawn so tightly to the actual legs of the mech due to their small size. As for the Raven overall they are still small and fast lights which remain difficult to hit, though two ac20's to the face and you can be pretty sure you got one.

Cheers,
daemur

So yeah, that pretty specifically states that Ravens have hitboxes that are larger than their actual legs. This was done as a stopgap measure to make them more killable while the netcode was worked on. Well, the netcode seems to be about as done as it's going to get, and the stopgap measure is still here. We want it reversed. And to answer your first line, of course I want smaller mediums (especially the 55 tonners, jeez. The Cent and Treb have it bad too.)

But I know how that goes, I have well over a million combined XP on my Awesomes. It's one thing to have awful hitboxes because the mech is badly shaped- and the Raven does suffer from that. But it also has the artificially inflated leg hitbox exacerbating the problem, which is not something that any other mech suffers from, as far as I am aware.